Aftermarket TCI available!

[timgray]

I would think so. It's just a variable resistor. The output voltage would be obviously less.

 

That's my worry, we wont get a useable voltage out of it at 5V to run it. and I really do not want to risk having it fail and dump 12V into the Ingitech and frying the input. I'm abandoning the stock Yamaha sensor and will be using a GM one as even it was to fail cant dump more than 5V into the new TCI and therefore cant damage it.

 

Now all we need is a few readings of what the vac is at the vac port with the engine running and at closed throttle, 1/4 throttle, and WOT. then a reading at highway cruise.

[The Crimson Knight]

I know this thread has not been touched for a while, but my 88 VR's ignition computer is shot and I posted a new thread to ask for suggestions on replacing it. That thread can be seen here: http://venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=46194

 

Several people wrote back with ideas and one of them (RandyR), suggested I read this thread. After some discussion with my mechanic, I decided to contact IgniTech and see if I can get one shipped to me to replace mine. It seems like people had good results with this and it seems like it's a decent price, plus a 2 year warranty...

 

My mechanic and I are both confident that we can get it working. I'll be downloading and using tvking's file for the ignition system and see how it works, assuming the communication and ordering all go to plan with IgniTech.

 

Anyway, if anyone has an update or new info that they haven't posted yet, please do so, as I greatly appreciate the help.

 

~Chris

[tvking63]

Hey Chris, thanks for the PM to let me know there was some activity here.

 

I don't see why the IgniTech box and my map wouldn't work with your bike.

 

You mentioned that your bike is a '88 Cali edition. It's my understanding that all VR's 83-89 use the multiple pickup style ignition so it should work fine. The only issue I can see is that since your bike is a Cali edition, from the factory it might be jetted a bit leaner (anybody know?) for emissions reasons which could make it more prone to pinging under load. If it is jetted leaner, the stock map is probably has a more conservative advance curve to keep it from pinging. If it does ping with my map it's not a big deal to back off the timing a bit to keep that from happening. If you or your mechanic is not comfortable doing that, I'd be happy to tweak a map for your bike.

 

Keep us updated on how things are going.

 

The weather is just starting to break here. In fact I got in my first little ride of the season last week. Anyway, hopefully I can start diving into this and get some new info posted in the near future.

 

Any updates on the MAP sensor Tim?

[The Crimson Knight]

I got a response back from IgniTech letting me know that their system is designed for bikes without cruise control. They are not sure if there is a difference though, so they have asked for pictures of my ignition system and the wiring. I'll work on getting out to the shop again to take some pictures.

[tvking63]

My VR has cruise control and it works fine with the IgniTech box. I don't know if the cruise even interfaces with the ignition system at all. It gets it's speed info from the speedo head and most of the rest is vacuum controlled.

[timgray]

no updates yet as I have not been able to get any test riding in to map out Vac at different throttle positions and loads. That info is needed before we can even start to think about building a spark map.

 

I have the GM 1 BAR sensor in place on mine. It's really simple to install. the hard part was finding a good source for a vac line that is not too thick to run from the sensor to the sync port after the carbs.

[timgray]

One thing that might be really good for this though is a "newbie" 101 class about ignition timing and what a timing map is and how it works. Cover basics about tuning the map (Although the map we have now is pretty darn good: my spirited ride today told me it's running better that it did with the stock TCI) and about timing in general.

 

I'll start off...

 

These describe it far better than I can about ignition timing... Yes it's a bout a car, but it's the same as out bikes...

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm4OmiVH2J0]YouTube- Vintage VW Training Film - Ignition Timing Part 1[/ame]

 

[nomedia=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIrA4iWkhbE]YouTube- Vintage VW Training Film - Ignition Timing Part 2[/nomedia]

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbX-oC1WSbs]YouTube- Vintage VW Training Film - Ignition Timing II[/ame]

 

First you can ignore the part about the points and dwell. I remember having to replace points and setting dwell, but electronic ignition has eliminated that.

 

Those are the absolute basics of ignition timing. All engines run on that same principal from a Old Studebaker to the newest Ford GT supercar as well as our bikes and yes even harleys use good ol common ignition timing. Our bikes use a electronic "brain" to handle timing based on pulse signals coming from sensors that are attached to the crank. these tell the Ignition box where the pistons are. it can then adjust firing of the sparks based on RPM, and signals from the crank sensors. as the engine runs faster the ignition box adjusts the spark timing differently to try and keep the maximum efficiency and power. That is what you see in the spark timing "curve" spark advance versus engine rpm's.

Edited March 17, 2010 by timgray

[6m459]

Hi,

 

I have lost count. How many of us are running the Ignitech box now ?

 

What do I ask them for when I order one?

 

Thanks,

 

Brian H.

[tvking63]

I don't know for sure how many are running the IgniTech box but I'd guess four or five.

Timgray, Holgi and myself for sure, and The Crimson Knight has one on order, but my map has been downloaded 10 times so there might be others out there that haven't posted up.

 

When I ordered my there was nothing to ask for because they had never made one.

They make several models of boxes but the only one that I know that they program for a 1st gen Venture is their TCIP4 and it fits all 83-89 models

 

So I'd tell them you want a TCIP4 for whatever year Yamaha Venture your bike is.

It's too bad they don't have a part # system.......

 

I'll update the original post to reflect that info.

[The Crimson Knight]

Mine has been ordered as of monday. Took some time to get pictures to them and confirm that I don't need something special due to the fact that mine is a Cali edition with cruise. Came out to be $216 US after conversion. That includes shipping and customs. Very reasonable, I think.

 

I would just tell them the year make and model of your bike. I looked at my invoice they send and it's a TCIP4 for a XVZ 1300. That's my 1st gen Mk II. Your model number could be different depending on the bike.

 

Because of the time difference e-mails took about a day to turn around. I'm hoping the end result will outweigh the down time.

 

Best case scenario puts my bike back up and running mid April. Ugh! Wish I had taken the bike in to the shop back in December!!! Grrr.

 

Plus side is I'm taking this opportunity to get some other things done to the bike. Trying to get some new Battery cables from LoneStarMedic and Rick Butler has my seat this week to do his thing to it.. so.

[timgray]

I was able to get in a lot more riding time in the bike the past few days to have the following observations....

 

Ran 1 tank through with seafoam after winter storage to clean out system. refilled with standard unleaded gas for second tank.

 

On the second tank of gas the Ingitech is running very well. It actually starts better than it used to with the stock TCI. I have not hooked up the MAP sensor to start with replacing the "boost sensor" functionality on the bike. I need to get more readings from the bike as to what it wants. If I can figure out how to not color the signal but protect the ingitech TCI from the stock boost sensor failure I will also try using the stock sensor to get readings.

 

I did notice that at cruise there is a bit of a flat spot at 3000 rpm it seems like it lacks power there. getting on the throttle though gets out of the flat spot fast. I need to test this a bit more to see if it's my imagination or if it's a real flat spot. Fuel economy seems down, but I need to run a few tanks and calculate to make sure.

 

I honestly would recommend that anyone that has a dead TCI to get the ingitech and apply the spark map from this thread. It's going to be 4X more reliable than a used TCI from ebay.

[The Crimson Knight]

Well, my TCI from Ignitech arrived today. I was late to work so I could go to the mechanic's shop and hook it up and see how it works. I got the program loaded and downloaded the file from here but after an hour of playing with it at the mechanic's shop I never once got the program to show connection to the TCI..??

 

Ignition was on (but engine was not running). I'm using a Serial to USB adapter and set it to com 1 (also tried 13). I am running windows 7 but I tried using compatability mode and run as administrator, rebooted, connected things in different order. Nothing...

 

Also noted that we tried to start the bike without applying the programming file from this site. It didn't start. My mechanic pulled out one of the spark plug wires and there was no spark at all ever while cranking...

 

I would have suspected that even with default or incorrect programming that there should have been a spark at some point..?

 

I'm going to grab an old model laptop with Windows XP and a real built-in serial cable and go back out tomorrow morning and try again.

 

I'm worried though. My gut tells me that something is seriously wrong with the Ignitech TCI that I got....

[tvking63]

I was able to get in a lot more riding time in the bike the past

 

On the second tank of gas the Ingitech is running very well. It actually starts better than it used to with the stock TCI.

 

Glad to here it's running good. I believe you had mention that it didn't run well at low RPM and when cold. I haven't had such issues and couldn't figure out why you were have problems.

 

 

I did notice that at cruise there is a bit of a flat spot at 3000 rpm it seems like it lacks power there. getting on the throttle though gets out of the flat spot fast. I need to test this a bit more to see if it's my imagination or if it's a real flat spot. Fuel economy seems down, but I need to run a few tanks and calculate to make sure.

 

I haven't noticed any flat spot but like I said before I'm pushing a sidecar so things are different for me. My MPG is still off a little (2-3mpg) from the Yammy TCI box but way better than it was with the original IgniTech programming. I think that's because it could use more timing under light load conditions, but w/o the MAP/boost sensor, the ignition curve has to be set to 'worse case' scenario.

 

I've been tweaking the map a bit to try to make things a little better. I moved all the RPM cells down so the last one is at 6k RPM (I think). This gives me a little more adjustability where it's needed. I also added some advance in a few spots. Seems good so far but haven't had any really hot weather to know if it will ping when things are really cooking.

 

I can post up what I'm running right now if anyone is interested in giving it a try.

[tvking63]

Well, my TCI from Ignitech arrived today. I was late to work so I could go to the mechanic's shop and hook it up and see how it works. I got the program loaded and downloaded the file from here but after an hour of playing with it at the mechanic's shop I never once got the program to show connection to the TCI..??

 

Ignition was on (but engine was not running). I'm using a Serial to USB adapter and set it to com 1 (also tried 13). I am running windows 7 but I tried using compatability mode and run as administrator, rebooted, connected things in different order. Nothing...

 

Also noted that we tried to start the bike without applying the programming file from this site. It didn't start. My mechanic pulled out one of the spark plug wires and there was no spark at all ever while cranking...

 

I would have suspected that even with default or incorrect programming that there should have been a spark at some point..?

 

I'm going to grab an old model laptop with Windows XP and a real built-in serial cable and go back out tomorrow morning and try again.

 

I'm worried though. My gut tells me that something is seriously wrong with the Ignitech TCI that I got....

 

I use an older laptop with a serial port running XP and it works fine. I didn't have to change the com port or anything. But I don't think that's your problem.

 

Do you have power between pins 13 (12v +) and 14 (ground) at the TCI with the key on. If the box isn't getting powered up, you won't be able to access it wit the PC.

 

You should have spark with the standard IgniTech map. I rode mine several hundred miles on the original map. When cranking, it has been my experience that the VR has crappy spark and it can be missed if your not really looking for it. Did he check more than one cylinder?

 

Is your mechanic sure that your P.U coils are OK?

[timgray]

I'd love to try your tweaked map, you can email it to me at timgray1@gmail.com...

 

I hope to get some base numbers so we can start working on the vac advance soon. Cold weather start only rears it's head when the bike and air temperature is below 40 degrees.

 

There is a possibility the Ingitech came without a program installed in it. I was able to program mine with Vista, never tried it under Windows 7. But I also used a expresscard Serial adapter. I have never had a usb serial adapter work for anything.

 

I now have a old laptop running windows 2000 for all bike and car related stuff. a real serial port built in is worth it's weight in gold. I picked up an old P-III laptop off ebay for $25.00 with the OS installed.

[tvking63]

Here is my latest tweaked map. As a mentioned before this is a work in progress and may turn out to be to aggressive. I only have a limited number of miles on it so....USE AT YOUR OWN RISK

 

If you don't want to be that adventuresome use the map in the first post.

 

Here are images of last 2 so you can see the difference.

 

This is the last "known good" map that I ran all last fall. As you can see, the cells from 5k on don't really add anything to the map.

 

 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2591/3970777932_1934c6b471_o.jpg

 

And this is the latest tweak. All the cells have been moved to 6k or less to add more adjustability where it's needed and it's slightly more aggressive than the last map.

 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2005/4506033451_d562c0f614_o.jpg

[Squeeze]

Here's the Spark Advance Curve of '85 Vmax. Since Engines and Parts are mostly the same, you could try to achieve a similar Curve with the programmable Ignition.

[jasonm.]

you are starting your advance too high...I see 12 or 13 degrees at idle. Stock these are 5 degrees...this eliminates knocking(ping) off idle with regular grade gas. If possible I suggest you try to get to 5 degrees start.

[timgray]

Here's the Spark Advance Curve of '85 Vmax. Since Engines and Parts are mostly the same, you could try to achieve a similar Curve with the programmable Ignition.

 

That one is very different from the Venture timing map we have. I really wish we could get one that was actually accurate instead of a generic small copy. I'd love a full 8X11 engineering spec version that showed the actual manufacturing curve and accurate divisions at every 100 rpm and 1 deg.

[Holgi]

I have sent a E-mail to Egli Racing today, if they had a XVZ12 projekt like ours in the past.

Maybe they can send me a accurate timing map?

We will see.

Regards

Holgi

 

That one is very different from the Venture timing map we have. I really wish we could get one that was actually accurate instead of a generic small copy. I'd love a full 8X11 engineering spec version that showed the actual manufacturing curve and accurate divisions at every 100 rpm and 1 deg.

[Holgi]

Nothing from Egli the Yamaha V-max Pope. They have no curve for the XVZ12. And a second firm they asked could not help too.

Sorry!

Holgi

[timgray]

you are starting your advance too high...I see 12 or 13 degrees at idle. Stock these are 5 degrees...this eliminates knocking(ping) off idle with regular grade gas. If possible I suggest you try to get to 5 degrees start.

 

for the vmax timing table? yes. but the only venture one we have it shows the timing to start at 12 degrees for idle.

 

now for WOT it shows 5 deg for idle. but the venture could never have measured WOT with it's vac sensor until it gets above 2000 rpm. honestly, the vac sensor will probably rise as rpm's go up so we will have to replicate the table across several TPS settings.

 

The WIERD part is that the venture table actualyl shows we need to reduce timing after 3000 rpm to 9000 rpm over a slow slope. that is strange to me as I have never sen a timing curve that was like that.

[Squeeze]

Why don't you just go with the Vmax Data. It's the same Motor, ok, different Cams, but you sure won't hurt anything when going where the Power is.

[timgray]

I'm wondering if it might not be a better idea to try and find a place to hook a TPS sensor to a carb. or even the throttle cable. some of them out there are really small.

 

I'm concerned about using a vac sensor to get an accurate TPS reading. I know that Yamaha has done it that way for a really long time but Todd and I are both finding reading that are concerning when messing with the changes. I'm adding in a vacuum restriction in line for my sensor next time to try and smooth out the readings more.

[tvking63]

you are starting your advance too high...I see 12 or 13 degrees at idle. Stock these are 5 degrees...this eliminates knocking(ping) off idle with regular grade gas. If possible I suggest you try to get to 5 degrees start.

 

I understand your point, but right now I'm still experimenting with things. Because of factors that I won't go into detail about right now, I thought that it might be worth a try. I haven't had it ping at 900RPM yet. And if you look at the stock curve you'll see that the boost senor can bring the advance up to 12° at 900 RPM. Idle speed spec is 1000RPM so...........

 

Why don't you just go with the Vmax Data. It's the same Motor, ok, different Cams, but you sure won't hurt anything when going where the Power is.

 

Different cams change cylinder filling and pressures at a given load/RPM which alters the amount of advance you should have, so advance curves shouldn't be interchangeable between the 2 engines. I would imagine that weight and aerodynamics could be a factor too.

 

It is interesting that the base map (min. advance) for the V-Max is shown at 1.57 inches of Mercury but the VR shows MAX advance at the same 1.57 inches of Mercury.......

 

That cannot possibly be. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I thought the VR vacuum numbers might be reversed and I believe this confirms it.

 

V-Max

 

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4526581739_613cc159ce_o.jpg

 

 

VR

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3530/3897667176_5414b12b65_o.jpg

 

 

 

I know that Yamaha has done it that way for a really long time but Todd and I are both finding reading that are concerning when messing with the changes. I'm adding in a vacuum restriction in line for my sensor next time to try and smooth out the readings more.

I assume you're talking about the vacuum reading REALLY jumping around? I tried tying all 4 vac ports together to see if that would smooth it out. It helped slightly, but not enough to make a real difference. So I have since went back to a single port.

 

I then added a restrictor in the vac line which made huge difference.

 

Without a restrictor

 

[/url]

 

 

With a restrictor

 

 

It looks like the restrictor is the answer.

 

 

I've got a GM 1 bar MAP sensor wired in and have been monitoring MAP output voltages playing with the advance curve. It really seems to wake up part throttle response but I haven't had the opportunity to ride it with and w/o the MAP sensor back to back to verify that it's not just my imagination.

 

More info coming as soon as I have a clue what I'm doing.