dumb brake question

[Atlanta Bill]

More dumb questions from the mechanically disinclined!

 

My rear brakes are very weak. No noises...no sponginess. Just weak.

I figured I'd start with new brake fluid.

The line going to the rear brake looks a little suspect where it connects at the brake. (See attached photo)

The hose looks loose...to the point that I'm "assuming" it must be that this is just a rubber outer hose I'm actually seeing...otherwise i'm pretty sure i'd already have brake fluid everywhere (or no brake fluid).

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks,

Bill in Atlanta

[cowpuc]

Bill,, similar to many other scoots I have seen, it looks to me like the rear brake line has a protective sleeve that it rides in. Is the suspicion of the line you are questioning a result of seeing that sleeve protruding where the bango connects to the rubber section of the line itself?

I have never worked on a 96,, do they have linked brakes? If so, you might want to take a look at the neck of the bike and see if there is a bleeder up there. That high point in the system has caused more than one person issues as any air in the system tends to eventually gather there. Prior to a total bleed/fluid replacement/piston cleaning/rotor cleaning/pad swap you may want to try a quick bleed from that spot just to see if your brakes respond.

IMHO of course...

Best of luck!

Puc

 

P.S. - never did hear of a "dumb brake question".. Take that back,,, the only dumb brake question I ever heard of was the one that didnt get asked resulting in an accident that could of been avoided,, now THAT would be dumb!

[Condor]

More dumb questions from the mechanically disinclined!

 

My rear brakes are very weak. No noises...no sponginess. Just weak.

I figured I'd start with new brake fluid.

The line going to the rear brake looks a little suspect where it connects at the brake. (See attached photo)

The hose looks loose...to the point that I'm "assuming" it must be that this is just a rubber outer hose I'm actually seeing...otherwise i'm pretty sure i'd already have brake fluid everywhere (or no brake fluid).

 

Thoughts?

 

Thanks,

Bill in Atlanta

 

Not sure about the '96's, but the 1stGens were designed to limit the stopping power of the rear brakes to about 30%.. May be the same for the '96's. One thing you don't want is to have your back brakes lock up in a panic stop and high side. The 99RSV's and newer had a problem with touchy rears when they unlinked the system...

[Atlanta Bill]

Bill,, similar to many other scoots I have seen, it looks to me like the rear brake line has a protective sleeve that it rides in. Is the suspicion of the line you are questioning a result of seeing that sleeve protruding where the bango connects to the rubber section of the line itself?

I have never worked on a 96,, do they have linked brakes? If so, you might want to take a look at the neck of the bike and see if there is a bleeder up there. That high point in the system has caused more than one person issues as any air in the system tends to eventually gather there. Prior to a total bleed/fluid replacement/piston cleaning/rotor cleaning/pad swap you may want to try a quick bleed from that spot just to see if your brakes respond.

IMHO of course...

Best of luck!

Puc

 

P.S. - never did hear of a "dumb brake question".. Take that back,,, the only dumb brake question I ever heard of was the one that didnt get asked resulting in an accident that could of been avoided,, now THAT would be dumb!

 

My suspicion was because of that loose fitting sleeve. As I said, I assumed that was the case....but thought it better to ask than have brake fluid everywhere.

They aren't linked (to the best of my knowledge).

Thanks for weighing in, Puc.

 

Hey, does a 96 RSTC have an AIS?? If so I can't find it.

[Atlanta Bill]

I guess I got a bit more focused on my brake issue after pulling the bags last weekend. Now I can actually access everything.

I like the look. (Those bolts in the fender are only temporary.)

[cowpuc]

NICE!!!!!!!

 

No idea on the AIS but someone much more with it will certainly know!! Hey Bill,, when was the last time you checked the brake pad's for both wear and contamination? You ever put new pads on it? Maybe all it needs is a set of new pads and a good rotor cleaning... I always clean my caliper pistons when I do that (put in new pads) to keep em from getting sticky,, may or may not be applicable in your case..

[saddlebum]

1st question is does the pedal feel spongy or hard?

 

Assuming there are no visible fluid leaks look for the following possibilities.

 

If spongy than you could have air in the system caused by fluid getting low in the master due to pad wear or a leak in the system. A worn out master cylinder can draw air without necessarily showing any signs of leakage. Try holding the pedal down and see if after a few seconds it starts to slowly go down further.

 

If the pedal is hard you may have either glazed pads and/or rotor. Or the pistons in your caliper are seizing up.

[OutKast]

If you would post this in Second Gen Tech Talk instead of the general Watering Hole, you would get more applicable answers.

 

The Second Gens (at least the 99 and later Ventures) generally have too much rear brake, and will lock if you jam them hard. They are not linked. The front brakes are about perfect.

 

Maybe someone tried to correct this by installing a harder pad. Some have installed a pressure reducing device coming off the rear master cylinder to reduce pressure.

 

Check out the parts diagram fro the rear master cylinder. If it all looks stock, try HH pads in the rear.

 

The second gens always wear one pad more than the other, and it always wears at an angle. This would also cause your symptoms. Again, new HH pads would cure that.

 

Flush all the hydraulic fluid when you get a chance. If it is coffee colored, that is at least part of the problem. I do it about every three years. Sometimes this allows freer movement of the piston.

 

As Cowpuc said, make sure the piston is clean on the outside when you check or replace pads.

Edited August 28, 2019 by OutKast

[saddlebum]

If you would post this in Second Gen Tech Talk instead of the general Watering Hole, you would get more applicable answers.

 

.

I am sure one of the monitors cna move this to Second Gen Tech Talk

[Atlanta Bill]

NICE!!!!!!!

 

No idea on the AIS but someone much more with it will certainly know!! Hey Bill,, when was the last time you checked the brake pad's for both wear and contamination? You ever put new pads on it? Maybe all it needs is a set of new pads and a good rotor cleaning... I always clean my caliper pistons when I do that (put in new pads) to keep em from getting sticky,, may or may not be applicable in your case..

 

Only had the bike for 8 weeks. Could be the pads (which leads to yet another stupid question...when the pads are changed does that mean I'll need to bleed the brakes after?).

 

 

[QUOTE1st question is does the pedal feel spongy or hard?

 

Assuming there are no visible fluid leaks look for the following possibilities.

 

If spongy than you could have air in the system caused by fluid getting low in the master due to pad wear or a leak in the system. A worn out master cylinder can draw air without necessarily showing any signs of leakage. Try holding the pedal down and see if after a few seconds it starts to slowly go down further.

 

If the pedal is hard you may have either glazed pads and/or rotor. Or the pistons in your caliper are seizing up.[QUOTE]

 

No fluid leaks. As stated initially, not spongy...just weak. I'll take a look at all components this weekend.

 

If you would post this in Second Gen Tech Talk instead of the general Watering Hole, you would get more applicable answers.

 

This bike isn't 2nd Gen...it is a 96. There are several differences (and much similarity). I guess I could have posted this in Royal Star and Royal Star Deluxe Tech Talk...but answers seem to come quicker from the Watering Hole.

If Freebird asks me to do otherwise I instantly will.

Per the coffee colored brake fluid....that is kind of what started this. I plan to change it soon as I'm guessing it is ancient.

 

Hey....thanks to all for responding. You guys are the best!

[cowpuc]

Only had the bike for 8 weeks. Could be the pads (which leads to yet another stupid question...when the pads are changed does that mean I'll need to bleed the brakes after?).

 

 

[QUOTE1st question is does the pedal feel spongy or hard?

 

Assuming there are no visible fluid leaks look for the following possibilities.

 

If spongy than you could have air in the system caused by fluid getting low in the master due to pad wear or a leak in the system. A worn out master cylinder can draw air without necessarily showing any signs of leakage. Try holding the pedal down and see if after a few seconds it starts to slowly go down further.

 

If the pedal is hard you may have either glazed pads and/or rotor. Or the pistons in your caliper are seizing up.[QUOTE]

 

No fluid leaks. As stated initially, not spongy...just weak. I'll take a look at all components this weekend.

 

 

 

This bike isn't 2nd Gen...it is a 96. There are several differences (and much similarity). I guess I could have posted this in Royal Star and Royal Star Deluxe Tech Talk...but answers seem to come quicker from the Watering Hole.

If Freebird asks me to do otherwise I instantly will.

Per the coffee colored brake fluid....that is kind of what started this. I plan to change it soon as I'm guessing it is ancient.

 

Hey....thanks to all for responding. You guys are the best!

 

IMHO, no you dont necessarially have to bleed the brakes or swap in new fluid when swapping pads (it is sealed hydraulic system that should not require bleeding/fluid swap just to put in new pads), doing so would be more of a maintenance purpose than anything else.. Normally all that would be needed to slap on new pads would be removal of the caliper, popping off the old pads, compressing the pistons so the new pads will slide over the rotor, cleaning the rotor real well with brake cleaner, putting the new pads back into the caliper, slipping the caliper with new pads back over the rotor, tightening the bolts, pumping the pedal while spinning the wheel to make sure the brake is engaging and releasing properly and hitting the road to fun..

It's a funky habit I got into a longggg time ago and also not a "have to do" either but I ALWAYS clean the pistons when doing a pad swap. This has served me well thru the years in avoiding sticky caliper pistons (resulting in all kinds of calamity on either dirt bikes or street) and doing so has worked well in my case. On my 1st Gens, doing this has allowed me to be able to run original calipers and pistons with no rebuilds thru my process of wearing out 6 1st Gens..

Here is a short video of what I am referring to - this is on my R1 but same idea applies across the board.. If your going to do this, please be aware that you do not want to push the pistons all the way out!! If you are going to do that, you may as well get new seals and be prepared to rebuild the calipers while your at it = this will also REGUIRE you to refill with fresh fluid as this is opening the sealed brakes system and fluid will be everywhere. Just be careful when pumping out the pistons to only push them out to the distance of the width of the pad on a new brake pad (not including backing plate). After cleaning one piston (do them one at a time), force it back in and pump it back out and check it for smearing,, if it shows contamination = reclean, push the piston back out and check it again..

Edited August 28, 2019 by cowpuc

[Marcarl]

Just so that you are aware, the greater majority of your braking power is in the front, the rear brake is only there to stop the rear wheel from spinning so to speak. Too much braking power in the rear will cause the rear to slide out. When braking most of the weight of the bike (or car) is transferred to the front, with very little left for the rear so it will lock up easy. If you are thinking that the rear by itself should slow you down to a stop, make sure you have plenty of real estate.

[cowpuc]

Just so that you are aware, the greater majority of your braking power is in the front, the rear brake is only there to stop the rear wheel from spinning so to speak. Too much braking power in the rear will cause the rear to slide out. When braking most of the weight of the bike (or car) is transferred to the front, with very little left for the rear so it will lock up easy. If you are thinking that the rear by itself should slow you down to a stop, make sure you have plenty of real estate.

 

 

:sign yeah that:

 

And cleaned up and operating correctly, your best stopping power is with just those front brakes and should be a one finger (maybe 2 if you dont have good strength in your pointer finger) instantanious affair. Learning to use your throttle with one finger free to do all the braking is great cause you never have to wake your right foot up while it's sleeping draped over the front crash bars and also an excellent friend while stopped on a hillside waiting for the traffic to move forward:biker:.

Learning to use/depend on the front brake can save your life!!!

Track/Street or even just fun in the woods on a dirt bike,, IMHO, the only real good use of the rear brake is for steering the bike.. I have a gut feeling that the only reason Mom Yam went with linked brakes on these big ol amazing touring bikes is that more and more people were forgetting the fine art of front brake usage and determined to rely on the back brakes for stopping power..

[cowpuc]

I guess I got a bit more focused on my brake issue after pulling the bags last weekend. Now I can actually access everything.

I like the look. (Those bolts in the fender are only temporary.)

 

Personally I REALLY like the looks of what cha got happening there brother = sort of a back to basics, no frills rider,,,, a Motorcycle in it's purist form !! NICE!!

[Atlanta Bill]

Yep. It for sure is a back to basics look. I'm thinking further on down the road I may get a Venture or a Wing for some longer trips.

 

Understood completely on the use of front vs. rear brakes.

Not sure how wanting correctly functioning rear brakes would in any way imply I would strictly rely on them and not the front brakes, (especially in an emergency stopping situation), but I suppose revisiting the importance of the front brake use is never a bad thing.

 

I've got new pads and fluid en route as I type.

(Puc...thanks for the detailed rundown on the pads procedure!)

In addition to the brakes, I have a few other little projects (cleaning wheels/final drive oil/ installing solo seat rail/ some little adjustments etc.) lined up for Saturday, so I expect to drop a couple of pounds in sweat from wrenching in the garage and be stove up and in pain come Saturday evening. So I have a great weekend planned.

[M61A1MECH]

The original Royal Stars do not ha e linked brakes.

They suffer from the same to much power to rear brakes that the Venture does.

You do not have to bleed the brakes when changing pads, just make sure there is enough room in the master cylinder to take the fluid that will be displaced when you push the pistons back to allow the new pads to fit in.