Help Needed 1st gen will not start

[Oldseadog]

Hi everyone, I've been on here for a few years now, and I've learned a lot, but I need some help with this problem. Today I rode into Victoria, about a 30 min ride. I was headed to Sooke for the Bike and Biker blessing. Everything seemed great, but when I pulled into the parking lot, at Timmies a National Coffee Shop, the bike back fired and died. I left it shut off for about 1/2 hour before a group of us headed out on the ride to Sooke, again about 30 min away. The bike was very hard to start, but after a couple of backfires it started, and we headed out. It was not running properly at all. I had to keep the revs up, and it lacked any power what so ever. Whenever I opened the throttle, the bike actually seemed to bog down, until I down shifted. The Tach did not work at all. After the blessing, the bike refused to start. It spins over great, and sounds like it wants to fire, but it just back fires. One of the bikers at the blessing, with an older Yamaha, said it may be one of the coil packs, or the CDI. I have not been able to investigate the problem yet as I just got the bike into the shop just before it closed. I'm a member of the local military auto hobby club, so I have a good place to work in it. I look forward to any and all comments and advice. If it is electrical, ........ I hate electrical, it is VOODOO magic, and I have trouble understanding it, and where do I start? Thanks in advance!

[Yammer Dan]

Clean TCI connections!!

[yamagrl]

Clean TCI connections!!

 

I concur.

 

The tach is the dead give away.

 

If I recall there is a quick disconnect tucked in around the area of the fuel pump that contains the five pickup coil wires that come out of the stator cover. These wires go into one side of the TCI. This is where the TCI gets its signal that it processes and sends to the coils.

 

I would tinker with this one first since it's pretty easy to get to.

 

TCI might be bad.

 

I can take a picture of it on Big Red tomorrow.

 

Heather

 

P.S. Sometimes, I try to look at things as if there might be a reason... maybe there was a reason that you needed to be held up... you never know... just say "thanks" and accept it.

 

Edited May 8, 2016 by yamagrl

[Flyinfool]

As Yamagrl said, the tach is the giveaway. The tach is driven from the signal that goes to the #2 ignition coil. The act that the tach is not working means that there is no signal being sent to the #2 coil. That is solid proof that you do have a "VOODOO magic" electrical issue. At least is is not fuel and carb, to me that is the VOODOO area. Electrical is easy you can test most things.

 

As mentioned start by making sure all of the connectors in the ignition circuits are clean and free of any corrosion.

[Oldseadog]

I knew the tach was driven by one of the coils, that is the reason I was thinking I had a bad coil pack. My friend, Rocket, has an extra TCI unit if it is required, and quite possibly a set of coils. I will be getting started Monday night as today is Mothers day, and I'm booked up all day.

[Flyinfool]

The tach drive is before the coils so it points to something other than the coils.

 

If you do have access to a known good TCI, Then it is easy to swap in the new one for testing. The wires are long enough to put the new one on top of the air cleaner. Getting the old one out is a bear, It is common to relocate the TCI to a more friendly location, The factory was nice enough to make the wires plenty long for a lot of places to put the TCI.

[yamagrl]

I concur.

 

The tach is the dead give away.

 

If I recall there is a quick disconnect tucked in around the area of the fuel pump I told you wrong. It's on the left side attached to frame, below the seat that contains the five pickup coil wires that come out of the stator cover. These wires go into one side of the TCI. This is where the TCI gets its signal that it processes and sends to the coils.

 

I would tinker with this one first since it's pretty easy to get to.

 

TCI might be bad.

 

I can take a picture of it on Big Red tomorrow.

 

Heather

 

P.S. Sometimes, I try to look at things as if there might be a reason... maybe there was a reason that you needed to be held up... you never know... just say "thanks" and accept it.

 

 

I told you wrong. The connector with the five wires that I was referring to is actually on the left side attached to frame, below the seat. It is not tucked in by the fuel pump. Sorry...My bad.

In the pic #1

1. the green arrow points to the Grey wire going to the tack.
   
2. The red circle is the connector that I have been talking about. This is where I would start. Dingy says that they are notorious for problems and in fact he includes a new replacement setup for this connector with his Ignitech TCI upgrade, (which would be an option if the TCI proves to be the culprit). This is what I'm betting on.
   
3. The blue circle is the two connectors attached to the TCI
   

In pic #2 is the connector I have been referring to. Tinker with it, clean it up, make sure it makes good connections. Then try to start it up before you go any further. Only the left side cover needs to be removed in order to gain access.

 

If it still doesn't run after you have made certain that connector and the two on the TCI have good contact then your next thing to try is another TCI.

 

Good luck.

 

Heather

 

 

 

​

Edited May 9, 2016 by yamagrl

[bongobobny]

Yup!! I concur with all of the above!! Sounds like the TCI took a dump, especially with the dead tach. As was stated, the tach drive signal comes from the primary side of the #2 coil, so obviously the pulses are not getting to the coil. There may be water caught inside the TCI, or one or more of the diodes that are weak to begin with went south, or ??? Yes, the connectors may have corrosion on them, but my money is on the TCI.

 

Just make sure the TCI your friend has is compatible with your '84. One from an '83 WILL NOT WORK RIGHT! '84 thru '89 will work!! '90 up WILL NOT WORK PERIOD!

[Yammer Dan]

All good advice. Go a step at a time. Clean connections. If that don't do it pull TCI and do the bake thing. If that don't work replace.

[bongobobny]

My friend, Rocket,

How is Paul?? He hardly ever posts here any more...

[Yammer Dan]

Rocket called me and chatted for a while the other day. Same old Rocket!!

[Oldseadog]

Everyone, thank you. Heather, thanks for the diagram and picture, it is truly appreciated. Tomorrow evening I am nervously going to start exploring the mysterious world of electricity. I'm not sure why, I willingly tear down and rebuild an engine, tear apart a carb, but I am freaked out about anything electrical. Maybe this will help me become more comfortable with it.

[bongobobny]

Yes, I suppose it is a little frightening to work on something that works but is invisible! You can't see the little electrons moving down the wires or through the circuitry, but you CAN see the wires and where they connect. If you study HOW the system works then you can possibly figure out what isn't working too! We can help out there, some of us here, like me, spent their working career in Electronics and/or are knowledgeable of how our bike's electrical system works. You can DO it!!!!!

[Oldseadog]

Well I'm going to start with a cleaning of the connections, and go from there. I'm anxious to actually start and hopefully locate the problem quick.

I just have to wait until 6PM for the club to open.

 

I have to ask, because I'm getting confused. TCI or CDI? Which is it, and what is the difference? Is there a difference?

[bongobobny]

Transistor Controlled Ignition (TCI) is what Yamaha calls it, I think...

[Yammer Dan]

All you have to do to clean connections to TCI is pull battery and box. Its right under battery box towards the front. If you are fair with tools the TCI can then be removed by going up from the sides (removing side covers) under it with flex shafts or joints. You will figure this part out as you look at it, but you can clean connections after removing battery box. If you have to go to next step you can remove TCI and open it to see if there is water in it or has been. I think there is a thread on opening the TCI and baking it in the oven. Not as scary as it sounds. I haven't had much luck with that but others have. Just go at it step by step and we will get it. Removing TCI now will let you move it out of the way of all the water that it gets where it is and its a lot easier to clean those connections with it out of there.

[cowpuc]

and CDI, if I remember correctly, stands for Capacitor Discharge Ignition. TCI is a lot more advanced and allows for multiple parameters to be considered for things to work properly. CDI has been around for many years now and is just a basic ignition module getting a signal from a pickup coil getting signal from the flywheel. These TCI's are a lot more advanced with all their inputs and outputs...

Ohhhhh how I miss points ignition with their simple little condenser that kept the points from fryin brother!!

 

ALL THE BEST IN YOUR REPAIR SEA PUPPY!!

[Yammer Dan]

Now these kids on here are going to be asking. Points??? What are points?? LOL!! As Puc says we will get you going or my name ain't...:think:wait til I find my ID..

[Oldseadog]

Ohhhhh how I miss points ignition with their simple little condenser that kept the points from fryin brother!!

Me too my friend, me too!

 

I can definitely feel my confidence rising with everyone behind me helping! I will keep you informed.

[cowpuc]

Now these kids on here are going to be asking. Points??? What are points?? LOL!! As Puc says we will get you going or my name ain't...:think:wait til I find my ID..

 

For many many years I had the local top notched, modern day, fully certified and completely tooled up local Dealerships sending me alllll their old age "junk" (their words - not mine) bikes that came in for ignition work if they had points ignition cause no one in their back room understood points ignition - I would tell em "those kids working in your back room need to go back to school and be taught a few things about the finer art of working on motorcycles" (my words - not theirs).. You and I may forget who we are at times DanL' but at least we remember the important things in life like points ignition and who's the REAL boss in our marriages:Bunny:

 

Sorry for the Sea Puppy - flaw in my character and all that...

[bongobobny]

Yah!! And the capacitor would short out and you would be scratching your head because you put in nice brand new points and correctly set the gap...

[Yammer Dan]

Hey Puc. How do I load a E-Mail to this site?? I got something I gotta show off!! Really proud of this one !!!

[cowpuc]

Hey Puc. How do I load a E-Mail to this site?? I got something I gotta show off!! Really proud of this one !!!

 

Copy/paste is the only way I know of... Highlight the text you wanna put here (if using a mouse you put the cursor at the end of the text - hold down on the left button and roll the mouse to highlight - if using a touch pad on a laptop you place the cursor, hold down on left pad button and move your finger across the pad to highlight), after highlighting release the left button and move the cursor anywhere inside of the highlighted area, right click and a window will appear with "copy" in it, click on "copy".. Now come to VR, go to the spot you want to post the e-mail, place your cursor where you want the e-mail to appear, right click and that box will appear again - click on "paste" this time and bingo - done deal!!

Another way would be to forward the email to me and I could post it for you - be happy to do so..

[cowpuc]

Yah!! And the capacitor would short out and you would be scratching your head because you put in nice brand new points and correctly set the gap...

 

Ok,,, ok ok,, this is buggin the living daylights out of me... We always called that thing that protected points a condenser,,, Bongo - is a condenser and capacitor the same thing??? School me Bongo!!

[Flyinfool]

The term condenser is the original term from WAY back in the olden days, The modern term for that same component is capacitor. There are some other countries that still use the term condenser.

 

If you go into your local auto parts store, it is usually old folks that would be looking for points and condenser so they still call it that, I guess mostly out of habit.