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Cdnlouie

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  1. Cdnlouie
    I don't mean to hi-jack this thread (from SilvrT), but I wanted to say that I finished installing the new expansion collar on the driven pinion output shaft and I have ended up with too much free play in the bearings (in my opinion, after torquing to 65 ft. lbs and installation). As I mentioned in my other post the new collar is 1mm wider than what was in the previous two engines (I am assuming wear - 10.3mm compared to 11.3mm for new collar). Now after torquing the shaft nut to 65 ft. lbs (nice and slow), there is just too much free play in the two tapered bearings (one on each side of the output shaft housing to steady the shaft). I have no measurement from the manual for this (except the procedure) and no way of knowing what is normal or allowable (except, call it intuition). I have been checking the lash with a micrometer (after installing it) and it is hard to check the rotational lash with the additionnal slop in the bearings (it was hard to tell what was normal until you got it mounted back in the engine). At this point the only thing I can do is remove the collar and shave some of it off to be slightly bigger than the worn ones I took out and then re-torque. I don't want to overtorque as crushing the expansion collar is probably not a good idea. I am wondering if I am missing something here?
  2. Cdnlouie
    Hi Squeeze, You are correct about being able to remove the driveshaft on the 86up and my intention was to differentiate between the two as the 83-85 just pulls out, whereas you have to contend with the seal on the later model. My apologies for giving the wrong impression. Re: the free play in the drive axle gear set. I totally agree with your description for checking the middel gear lash, my point is that the main drive axle does rotate freely (you are correct about the spring tension on the cam that is not moving). I am not sure where the play is (somewhere along the main drive axle connections toward the clutch and primary gear), but when you look in the back of the engine (output shaft removed) you can turn the pinion gear (with the cam and spring on the main axle) for a significant amount of rotation. This translates into significant free play through the middle gear set and back to the rear wheel. This is why you must isolate the gear on the left side of the engine to check the gear lash in the middle gear set (as you described). Thanks for your feedback,
  3. Cdnlouie
    Thanks for the great pics dragonrider! My situation did not destroy the pinion gear, but I suppose that would be the advanced case if you keep running the bike with the shaft floating around in it's bearing case. I did not loosen my rear engine pinch bolts as I was concerned about breaking the engine crankcase oil seal (it may or may not). Dans says: "So, if I understand correctly, if I hold my middle gear nut on the left side of the case, I should NOT be able to move the u-joint coming out the back. If it does, then replacement of the crush collar is the correct diagnoses? 59k on the mileage. Since I'm fixing 2nd gear anyway, I'm in the area." This is pretty much the correct understanding, but since there is some lash between the pinion gears anyway, it is easier to check the pinion gear after you dissemble the engine by holding the pinion gear (on the output shaft) in your left hand and twisting the universal joint (with your right). Any movement means the nut is loose and it needs to be re-torqued. Ideally, it would be wise to remove the universal joint, remove the nut (clean threads), add lock-tite and re-torque (very carefully, in two stages (check manual) rather than one sweeping motion). Replacing the crush collar would be the best possible idea as well since the original has been crushed with usage. However, I would speculate that a re-torque with the original crush is better than sitting loose. One cannot know for certain how long the crush collar will hold the torque if you don't replace it. It may be metal fatiqued when it reaches it maximum life.
  4. Cdnlouie
    Originally it was stated: "From my perspective, there seems to be a lot of "play" somewhere and I have a whining kinda noise coming from somewhere down there during deceleration. By "play" I mean that when the bike is on the centerstand and it's in first gear, I can rotate the tire forward and back to what seems to me to be excessive. I can tell by doing this that the free play is at the engine end. Thought maybe there might be a shim issue or something. I'm pretty certain it's not u-joint related tho." This "excessive play" you are mentioning is normal on the Venture. It does seem alarming, and you are right that it is seems to be up in the engine. This play is on the main drive axle, which is why the manual states you need to hold the drive axle nut (behind left middle gear cover with special tool) when you check the middle gear drive lash. It rotates freely on the drive axle for a significant degree of rotation (not sure how much is normal), which adds quite a bit of "play" at the rear wheel. You can't eliminate this free play by checking middle gear lash, as that is virtually insignificant compared to the free play in the middle gear pinion (which is set against the gear set of the main drive axle). Check the parts diagram and you can see that the middle gear set rotates against a spring and pivot arm that allows for this free play. You would need to have the engine apart to check for wear at this point. I have an article on this problem in the general tech section (rear output shaft breaks off nut) as I am currently replacing my output shaft on mine and have looked into this problem.
  5. Cdnlouie
    Great discussion fellows! Good research on the part number dilemma. There is only one thing for certain with the same part number: - If it is the exact number of a previous bike then it is the same part. There are a number of things true about different part numbers: - if you are on the inside track with Yamaha and know the new numbers assigned to later models you can be sure it is the same part (Ie. second gear changes and drive axle changes). - different part numbers do not necessarily mean the part is different. The first three digits can belong to different models but still be the same part (or not). As noted there can be variations in other digits and sitll be the same part (or not). Conclusion: The only for certain way to know a part is different is to visually inspect the part. This of course applies specifically to dimensional changes rather than material changes. Part numbers are an imperfect system. What to do: If someone can measure or compare visually the two master cylinders front and rear, then we can know whether they are the same or different (or some parts are different). Does this make sense? P.S. Getting back to bongbob's problem, the original master cylinders (83-85) may be sufficient since they may be the same as the later units (86 up) or maybe even more powerful because we must remember that the first antidive units bleed off significant pressure to run the hydraulic antidive, and if you disconnect those units or replace them with the electric antidives you have a lot more fluid pressure available (50% more pressure) for your braking. Some guys have done this and noticed a measurable difference. My original point was that the original master cylinders may be totally sufficient to run the newer 4 piston calipers. I don't know this for sure, but I would be surprised if you noticed any significant problem with good braking. I intend to try it myself, but I may not get to this upgrade this year. The point here is not that you necessarily need more volume of fluid, but you need sufficient hydraulic pressure to operate the 4 pistons. If the brake hoses are the same size on these bikes then the source pressure is pretty much going to be the same getting to a 4 piston or 2 piston caliper. A significant variable is the addition of stainless steel lines where you get a significant pressure boost (to the lines) because of the decreased loss to rubber expansion.
  6. Cdnlouie
    That's another interesting piece of info Dray. I'm not surprised because they use the exact same design (I checked the parts catalogue), and call it an "expansion spacer" for the V-Star. This is designed to absorb the shock (maintain tension, etc.) from drive line movement and looks exactly like the Venture design. I was really surprised when I measured the new one and found it to be 1mm wider than the used one. I would love to ask a Yamaha engineer about this one. Thanks for your input,
  7. Cdnlouie
    I'm upgrading my 85 as well some time in the future. I got the forks, brakes and rotors, but intend to use the same master cylinder. I don't think it will make a big difference. The whole braking is bound to be better or certainly no worst, I would try the original until you can get one. Cdnl
  8. Cdnlouie
    I picked up the new parts today in order to put everything back together and I was especially interested in measuring the collapsible collar (width) in the middle of the rear output shaft. It came as no surprise to find that the new collar was 1mm wider than the used collar in my two other engines. The old one was approx. 10.3mm and the new one was 11.3mm wide. The conclusion of the matter is that this is a very sensitive torque procedure (see manual), demanding careful application of torque so as not to crush the collar in the process. Also, over time I am sure that the engine's lash impacts this collar causing it to collapse and become loose, eventually breaking the nut off the output shaft. I would be willing to bet that most first gens. have some looseness in the this nut (over time) and would benefit from a re-torque. Ideally, one would have to replace the collar because there is an extra 1mm of space contributing to excessive pinion gear lash. I might add that this problem may well have some effect on the 2nd gear deterioration as well, since the opposing pinion gear (on the main drive axle shaft) is the one that breaks down in the early 83-85 models. This looseness (causing excessive pinion gear lash) would add additional impacting action upon this washer which is definitely not a good thing. Keeping this rear output shaft properly torqued may well extend the 2nd gear life of these engines (at least the ones that are not updated). I don't know if they have changed anything in later models (86 up), but it would be interesting to hear some feedback on this as some fellows check for looseness. The problem with even checking these, is that you must have the unit out of the engine or you must hold the main drive axle nut (behind the middle gear cover above the shifter) and turn the universal joint to feel movement. Also, in order to torque the shaft nut you must remove the universal joint which pretty much requires access in a vise to push the needle bearings out. The good news is that it does not take much time to remove the rear wheel and swingarm and the output shaft so it is very doable. The rear seal, o-ring and collar are all still available from Yamaha. Hope to get it back together soon and check the gear lash.
  9. Cdnlouie
    I am curious if anyone knows whether you can change out the rear final drive (on an 83-85) with the newer 86 and up pumpkin and drive shaft together? I know the 83-85 has separate drive shaft and final drive so one would have to change out the complete assembly, but if that is possible and it bolts up to the 83-85 swingarm (plus the yoke spine) and matches the rear wheel spline, then it could very well be possible. I need someone who has checked this option out. Louie
  10. Cdnlouie
    It his been my experience that the loosened output shaft did not produce any noticeable noise. After it broke the retaining nut off, I put about 1000 miles on the bike coming back from a trip, and the only thing I noticed was a bit of leaking oil on the left side (not a lot). The universal yoke was oscillating in the rear seal and causing oil to escape. It may cause a bit of additional vibration, but you probably would not notice it. I noticed a bit more transmission whine but that may have been due to the hot weather and thin oil. If you have the rear driven pinion gear and casing out it's real easy to hold the pinion gear with one hand and twist the yoke with the other to see if it has movement. If you have it off and it moves (any movement at all), you need to retorque it. It would not be a bad idea to cheque the torque period, as it seems the collar is designed to absorb the drivetrain shock and acting like an energy absorption damper as well as keeping the bearings under proper tension.
  11. Cdnlouie
    Okay, it's late winter and time to fix the driven pinion output shaft! (The one that comes out of the engine and bolts on the drive-shaft yoke). I believe that many first generation owners have a problem they may not know about: I believe the problem is a "collapsible collar on the driven pinion output shaft" or "improper factory torquing". Today, when I went to replace my broken shaft with a used one from another engine, I noticed that the drive-shaft yoke was loose. According to the Yamaha manual the nut on the end of the driven pinion shaft (out the back of the engine) is torqued at 29-36 ft lbs and loctite is applied as well (at the factory). Now there is no way that nut is going to move! I also checked the broken shaft and noticed the nut had not backed off (measured threads) either, but was locked in place at the original factory install position. So, what caused the yoke to loosen and eventually hammer the retaining nut until the shaft breaks? Well, the answer may be that the collapsible collar inside the shaft (over time) collapses (why is that not surprising?) from engine torque, causing play and looseness in the yoke, until one day it just breaks the nut off. This is the equivalent of a steady hammering action due to the looseness of the joint. Now, I don't know if this is limited to early Ventures or it may carry over to the modern day, but one thing is for sure, I would periodically check to see if the yoke is loosening. This is not easy to do because you really need to have the drive axle stationary (there is a tool to hold the drive axle located behind the middle gear cover on the left side of the engine) and then be able to twist the yoke to feel the looseness. While the engine is in the bike, it is also impossible to get a wrench on the nut. You would have to pull the swingarm and the driven pinion section (3 bolts) and re-torque the nut. I am going to do that now, and at the same time replace the collapsible collar with a new one. So what is the explanation for the failure? Well, it is possible that some bikes may have had this nut overtorqued at the factory which may have collapsed the collar too much and then over time, these engines are the ones that loosen up and eventually break off the retaining nut. It may be coincidental, but I have two engines (84 and 85) that both had looseness in the drive yoke so the problem may be there in many first generation bikes, but will only break off in a few that may have high mileage. One engine had low mileage 25,000 and it broke off, another had 65,000 miles and it was loose (so who can really tell)? There has to be an explanation for this phenomenon and so I thought that I would write this up as a plausible theory. I would be interested in anyone's comment on this thread, CDNL
  12. Cdnlouie
    Anyone able to recommend the best model LED tailight bulb for the first gen. Venture? I don't want to sacrifice any brightness (in the best interest of safety), but would like to save some Wattage for those hot days in stop and go traffic. Thanks for the site, this is a great selection.
  13. Cdnlouie
    Hey Fred, I do apologize for my fellow Canadians unhospitable behaviour and I will attempt to explain a few pits we all fall into at times. I have lived in the US for part of my life and have two American son-in-laws and a grand-child who has dual citizenship, so I have learned to negotiate the issues. First off, never assume Canadians are just like Americans or vice versa. This guarantees you will may well be offended or become the offender for issues that seemingly defy comprehension. We are so close in so many ways and yet so different in many others. Americans from the south are more vulnerable than the Yankees as they have been more acquainted with Canadian ways. You notice this even between the south and the north in the USA, but everyone manages to overlook the differences and get along there (usually?). Now, send a 'good ole boy' from the south up to Canada and it could be tough on him. You already discovered the 'beer issue' and if life becomes confusing over beer, imagine how complicated things can get here. Politics are perhaps the most sensitive issue, and George Bush has made it tough for a lot of Americans not to be painted with the same brush. We are pretty conservative with some things, and then pretty liberal with others, and pretty much passionate about them both, which is generally hard to understand whether you are a Republican or a Democrat. So in relation to politics if you say anything you probably 'can't win for losing' on that topic. Then again the big city here (I live close to Milton) is not really representative of most of Canada. It is just not as friendly because of the multi-ethnic nature of the region and the fact that there are so many people you just have to learn to almost ignore everyone. All the ethnic groups are friendly but the mix just tends to get difficult at times. There are not many places in the world like Toronto and we have not worked out all the issues yet. Nevertheless, it is a pretty neat place all things considered or compared to any big American city, so we really can't complain. Much more could be said, but suffice it to say that it takes a bit of social preparation to get ready to come to Canada, about the same as going to a European city and if you are able to listen a lot, you can navigate the pitfalls. It is not the sweet hospitality of down south (other parts of Canada are just like the south), but it can warm up pretty good if you give it a chance. Americans kind of grow on us and most of us work with Americans on a daily basis (for better or for worst), but it just takes getting to know each other better in order to enjoy the differences, rather than chafe under them. All in all, we are sorry your visit was not more hospitable, but we do hope you come on up again and maybe we can get to connect with some of the things we all do have in common. Wishing you a Merry Christmas Fred! Cecil
  14. Cdnlouie
    Rex, you might want to drain your coolant and add "water wetter" with water to give you enhanced cooling and heat dispersion (they use this for race bikes on track days). This is a simple and not a bad option as you can notice the difference. I never have any issues with my VR, but don't spend a lot of time sitting in traffic either. When I do sit in traffic I usually stop my engine or space myself from cars to keep some air moving even by slow movement. Some help for ya,
  15. Cdnlouie
    This has been an incredible accomplishment! Kudos to Condor for his relentless pursuit of MAC to produce this set of exhausts which makes our old girls look and sound really cool. You have enabled those of us on a 'budget' to restore some pride of ownership to an aging motorcycle icon, so thanks for outstanding, above and beyond the call of duty, work on our behalf!
  16. Cdnlouie
    Hey Condor, please do not take Murphy's Law personally. You are doing a great job and you are appreciated for sticking your neck out to orchestrate a great opportunity to keep these old Ventures on the road. Without your help we could not possibly afford to keep these old girls going. This is an awesome deal and all we have to do is wait. It's not costing us anything to wait and that works for me. It's not your place to eat any costs on this deal (even though I appreciate your graciousness) we assume responsibility for that, and it would be inappropriate to make you the fall guy. We need guys like you who take the initiative to help others, we're 100% behind you, be encouraged and thanks for getting them to manufacture some more Venture exhausts. We are going to need more of these pipes, as these old girls are going to be around for a while yet. Three cheers, for Condor!
  17. Cdnlouie
    I feel much better knowing that it does happen. Searching for the explanation of "what did I do to cause this?" is far more unnerving. I had pulled the rear wheel and greased my drive shaft before my summer trip and even wondered what might have contributed to this event. Everything came apart and went back slick so can't be related to that (I.e. no use of hammers). After 25 years you really get to know all about the Venture. Every part has been tested by every possible scenario over a long time and it is amazing that the bike stands up so well. Thanks again for the good comments and any other thoughts for those who may have done this with the engine in the frame, let me know, I like learning from those who have gone before me. Cheers all,
  18. Cdnlouie
    Hey fellows, thanks for the good input here. You got exactly what I was talking about. I am quite certain this came from the factory and has not been disturbed and it really had me puzzled as to how it could just pop the shaft nut off so easily. It must be a defective shaft situation here that shows up only on a few bikes. This engine was an 84 production model. I am really jazzed :cool10:about the idea of not having to tear down the engine. If I can remove the drive pinion gear output shaft without taking the engine out then I will be exuberant. I think I can even forgive Mama Yamaha for making a few defective output shafts if she did this for me. It has been a while since I took one of these down and I could not remember if the shaft could be removed without transmission dissassembly. I happen to have my old engine with the bad second gear issue, so I have an output shaft ready to go. I will need to get informed about the gear lash setting (I have the factory manual as long as it is clear) and if it changes with a different output shaft. I really appreciate your info on this and if you run across anything else it will be a bonus. Thanks for taking the time to dig up the research. Cecil
  19. Cdnlouie
    Has this every happened to anyone before? This one has me a bit perplexed. My 85VR, the output shaft to which the drive axle yoke bolts on to the engine (left side of middle gearbox just behind rubber boot) retaining bolt snapped clean off laying in boot. The only indication I had, that sent me looking was a recent oil leak on the left side. It most likely happened somewhere during my recent 4000km trip, probably on the way back. Can't remember anything taking place except I came back loaded up a bit heavier than going down. Looks like a winter job and might as well pick up the second gear pieces as well although she is not currently due. I wonder if it is any issue driving it for a bit as long as the oil leak does not worsen? I guess I made it for the last 1000 miles since I noticed the leak. At the moment it can't go anywhere but it can work on the output shaft as it is not under torque. Thought I would share that little gem with you all, who knows I could be the first! Lucky me! P.S. I did install the engine about 15,000 miles ago as a replacement and it could have been damaged by someone previously, but it is strange that it would last so long and then break. There was no partial cracks that showed rust, just a clean fresh break.
  20. Cdnlouie
    Funny you should mention ballast Condor! My 85VR with all the goodies installed (except a progressive rear spring) seems the most stable with two-up and loaded. Running light it tends to have a bit more wander lust at speeds over 85mph, but load her up and she plants like a rock. It's like the Venture performs best when she is doing what she likes to do. Jimbob's 'bounce' description sounds like poor damping. I would stick with proper fork oil if I am dealing with this type of problem, so you can be certain of the damping effect. Another thought might be that someone could have messed up the fork assembly and it is not working properly. Especially if you bought the bike and have always had the problem. You have to go through everything and assume nothing when trying to isolate problems like this. Checking for wheel trueness is also important, a bent rim will bounce, an improperly installed tire (not seated properly on rim) will bounce (this should show up with proper balancing). Improper balancing can be an issue. Something to consider (as Gearhead mentioned) with weave, etc. is not to try and correct the movement by holding on tighter, but let the bike absorb the wind, or pavement issues and it self-corrects itself. Some movement is part of the bike design and no real threat as long as the rider responds correctly. Don't stiffen up in fright and try to hang on to the bike which is perfectly natural. Loosen your death grip and let the bike self-correct from the condition that may have started the oscillation. The Venture is amazingly stable for its weight and touring purposes and as long as we do not push beyond its limits, we can be pretty happy campers. Working with the old girl over the years has resulted in cutting down some easily disposed weight issues. Like, dumping the amp and radio, speakers out of the front fairing and putting in a small modern system that works in your helmet speakers for starters. Another great modification is eliminating the trunk and luggage rack from the rear and having a backrest custom built (for passenger) and adding a softside luggage on the backrest (only as needed, T-bag works great, see my gallery). I also added a luggage rack (25lbs down low for more centralized weight distribution, I.e. less top heavy, balances better at all speeds) on my trailor hitch bracket. All of these modifications sure makes this a great boulevard cruiser when you want to, and reasonably sporty when you want to have fun on the twisties. For an outdated machine it still seems like a lot of fun! I guess it helps if I just don't know any better. Cheers
  21. Cdnlouie
    Thanks Tom and Freebird, for the "apples" and "apples" comparison, that is a very informative and helpful comparison. There are so many factors that change the handling characteristics of a tire (Ie. age, wear and not to mention the bike itself) as well as the circumstances where it is ridden (wet, dry, pavement surface, cold or hot temperatures, air pressure, rider weight, to name just the obvious ones) that seriously jeopardize comparisons. I really appreciate the effort by everyone to describe and share their experience with tires, it is always an interesting discussion.
  22. Cdnlouie
    Just a thought about comparing different types of tires. I wonder if we are doing a valid comparison between the previous old worn tire brand and the newly installed tire brand? At every new tire change you are going to notice a significant difference in tire behaviour and perhaps wrongly assume that they are better than the older brand. It has to be hard to remember how good a new tire handled when it was first put on, compared to the new one. It would be nice if we could rule out this subjective aspect of comparing the new with the old.
  23. Cdnlouie
    Hey Jeremy, did you check the rear shock linkage for excessive play? This linkage is a known weak point in the Venture design as it prone to wear and in need of regular maintenace (Ie. grease every 5000 miles). The 83-85 were the worse due to lack of grease zerks, unfortunately, the 86 and newer are not any better off, if riders do not apply grease regularly. I wrote a test up a while back to put a block of wood beside your rear tire and use a tire iron or the equivalent (long screwdriver) and lift the rear tire until the shock engages and then drop it again and note that distance. Any free play at all in this linkage contributes to weave or wobble, the issue being lack of suspension damping by the rear shock to control it. Your bike goes into float mode and sets up a weaving oscillation due to no damping control in the rear. I had 1/4 inch of play in my worn linkage and the weave was really bad, I replaced the bushings and eliminated any significant weave. These linkage bushings also need to be well greased so as not to cause binding or drag which decreases damping ability of rear shock. A worn rear shock can also cause weave and wobble no matter how good the front end is tuned. Years ago, I too thought I could solve some of my weave issues with a fork brace and found it did not solve them, as that is not the purpose of this brace, as previously mentioned. The last place I looked was the shock linkage and as it turns out that was my biggest handling improvement. The second was probably my solid epoxy/rubber engine mounts that stopped the engine from rolling around in the frame and making the rider seasick. There are many components that affect handling on the VR and each one needs to be painstakingly gone over until it is right. Even the front fork tuning is important and seriously affects stability. Cdn-lou
  24. Cdnlouie
    When I put my XM radio on my right dash cover (I moved my Class control unit to an alternate location on top of my aircleaner) and used the plain lid cover to put the car mount so it is within easy reach (being right handed myself) I connected the cigarette lighter adaptor to an accessory extenion plug and connected the two wires to the accessory screws on the fusebox so it works off the ignition switch. I taped the adaptor to the lighter extension so it stays in place and just packed it away behind the antifreeze bottle as you really don't need to get to it. Antennae can go anywhere as it is pretty small just as long as it is generally pointing upward it seems to work the best when moving around to keep the satellite signal in range. Have fun it is pretty great, although the car mount and adaptor in my Pioneer XM Inno has a serious high pitch whine. I can run it on the battery to eliminate this but it is a bit disappointing. Only the car mount has this problem and hopefully other brands may have a better system than the very expensive Pioneer system I bought.
  25. Cdnlouie
    Time to answer some of your keen comments: George, you are absolutely right on the larger diameter (thickness of spring) progressives, as well as the longer spring length, which is going to displace more oil and increase the oil height once installed. Progressive recommends a maximum O.H. of 5.5 inches or 140mm but I am sure that would exceed the stock O.H. using OEM recommended 400cc (or 400ml), thereby making them rather harsh. Scott, you may have answered the question "how low you can go" with 200cc per tube. That's half the recommended amount (from dry). If you refilled wet that may equate to about 250cc (guessing on that one). I would like you to clarify what you mean by an oil height of 1/2 inch below the top of the forks, as O.H. is normally measured with the springs out and the forks compressed (ie. blocked up without spring pressure)? With 220ml I would guess that would put you at least 8 inches (of air) below the top of fork tube with the springs removed. Jeremy, cut the spacer and reduce the oil height to 6.5 or lower and you will be very happy. The turn-in cornering feel is definitely related to front triple tree height in relation to the rear height. I have the original rear shock, so I definitely ended up with being too high, and too harsh in the front until I made the changes noted above. The oil height and spacer adjustment is a critical part of suspension tuning when installing progressives. Get these two settings right and it is a marked improvement, get them wrong and you wonder why you spent all this time and effort to end up with an uncomfortable ride. Good thoughts on this topic guys, installation is one thing, tuning is another.
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