SilvrT

Wife & I went to the Harley shop again yesterday and started talking prices and what's available and what's being built for their spring stock. Well!!!!... current "in-stock" inventory was delivered when the dollar was at par with US. Any inventory coming will arrive at whatever the exchange rate will dictate. Having said that, if things remain as they are we could be looking at a 4-5 thousand dollar increase. So, a new '09 Ultra "in-stock" will run me $24,989. That's with the nicer wheels, ABS, security system. Springtime will be around $29,500 +/- soooooooooo... hello MyBanker! ... with any luck, we could have a new Ultra sitting in the garage by next weekend. Only problem with that is... winter's coming on...it's liable to just sit there until spring before I/we can ride it. But, it's worth it if we can save 5 grand!

it's F8

I didn't write that stuff...just grabbed it off the 'net as a FYI

"Today's cars use a fuel-injection system that allows the engine to produce more horsepower with less fuel. In turn, less gasoline is dumped through the engine and expelled out the exhaust system, creating a cleaner burn with less pollution." "Butch Bass: A properly sized manifold and carb can make as much absolute power as EFI. Although EFI tends to produce a broader torque curve, ultimate horsepower is simply a case of flow and distribution." "Jim McFarland: If you boil everything down to combustion efficiency, ultimately full-sequential port-EFI systems will make the most power. Carbs are not good providers of mixture quality when tuning one cylinder at a time." "Warren Johnson: Properly tuned, carburetors make more peak power than EFI in a Pro Stock engine. A carb’s pressure differential atomizes the gas a lot better than spraying fuel through an orifice. But EFI has a broader powerband and superior cylinder-to-cylinder fuel distribution. The 1,100- to 1,300-cfm dual carbs are good only over a narrow range, about 1,500 rpm at most. EFI performs well over 2,000 rpm or more. On average, if optimized, both systems perform about the same as far as how fast you get down the track. However, the EFI system is much easier to tune than a carburetor." "Butch Bass: EFI simply enables the engine to be more efficient throughout the rpm range. From cold-starting to throttle response, a properly designed EFI setup is hard to beat. Engine management is the key to overall engine performance in the future, and when you control fuel and spark together, you have the ultimate tuning capability." "Mark Hamel: Fuel injection does everything right--improves driveability, makes more torque, solves cold-start problems, lowers emissions, and improves gas mileage. You can make 450 hp and drive the car every day. Myron Cottrell: EFI is for the guy who wants to learn. It is for the guy involved in the technology of today." What kind of features does EFI offer over carbs? Well, simply put: a carburetor just sits there. A typical GM EFI computer system can be programmed in the following areas: http://dtcc.cz28.com/history/Bullet1.gif Fuel Delivery based on MAP(Manifold Pressure), TP (Throttle Position), RPM, ECT (coolant temp) http://dtcc.cz28.com/history/Bullet1.gif Spark Advance based on MAP, TP, RPM, ECT http://dtcc.cz28.com/history/Bullet1.gif TCC Lockup characteristics based on TP, VSS(Vehicle Speed) http://dtcc.cz28.com/history/Bullet1.gif Highway Mode Air/Fuel Ratio based on MAP, TP, VSS, Time http://dtcc.cz28.com/history/Bullet1.gif Open Loop A/F Ratio and Power Enrichment Changes http://dtcc.cz28.com/history/Bullet1.gif Closed Loop parameters http://dtcc.cz28.com/history/Bullet1.gif Manifold Air Temp influence on timing and A/F ratio http://dtcc.cz28.com/history/Bullet1.gif Idle Speed based on ECT http://dtcc.cz28.com/history/Bullet1.gif Transmission Shift firmness and Shift Points (electronic automatics) http://dtcc.cz28.com/history/Bullet1.gif Cooling Fan(s) Operation besed on ECT, VSS http://dtcc.cz28.com/history/Bullet1.gif Trouble Code Parameters and Much, Much More.... The Facts: ..............................Carbs ..........EFI Winter Drivability: ........................Poor ........................Excellent Summer Drivebility: ......................Excellent .................Excellent Skill Level Required: ....................Average ...................Advanced Initial Cost: ................................$200+ ........................$1000 (typical) Long-term cost: ...........................High ........................Manageable Performance: ............................Good ..........................Better Turbo-compatible: ......................Poor ..........................Excellent Supercharger-compatible: ..........Depends ....................Excellent N2O-compatible: ........................Good .........................Good Emissions Friendly: ....................Poor ..........................Excellent "Wow" Factor: ............................Fair ...........................Excellent Reliability: ..................................Good .........................Excellent Fuel Distribution: ........................Fair ...........................Excellent(Port and Direct) Intake Configurations: ................Limited .......................Unlimited (Port and Direct) ..............................Pros: ...............6 .............................12

some people need to "get a room" ...:rotf: oops.. I forgot, I'm supposed to be lurking..

I've stirred up enuf trouble...think I'll become one of them "lurkers"...

Nina & I did the Harley Demo days thing this past weekend and I/we rode that ultra 3 different time... we absolutely LOVE IT! Gonna wait until we can check out the Kawi Voyager before making our decision. Enjoy the new scoot and keep us posted on how things go with it.

Is that a Victory Vision I see in the upper right of that pic?

yup...don't we all ... the trick is tho... do we actually LEARN or do we make them over again..and again... (some do(the latter)...no, not me... never me!)

now there's an unbiased, informed statement if I ever heard one. Guess I have no further comeback to that.

well, do I have a deal for you!!! ..... here it is.... (but, considering what the bet is, you can bet I will lie thru my teeth just to WIN!)

I rode a Victory Vision today!!! Also rode '09 Harley Ultra!!! Well, well well well... The Vision... Very impressed with the comfort, driver positioning, and handling. Heated seat, heated grips, adjustable windshield...power... lots of power...had her up to 180km....very smooth and stable yet even in parking lots, that bike is a breeze to ride. Downside...didn't like the "rattly" sound of the engine... wife didn't like how much higher up she was and even with the windshield up, she was getting a lot of buffeting. Passenger footrests for her weren't very well positioned and little to zero room for adjustments. The Ultra...I rode that one twice but it was a controlled ride with a bunch of others (not so on the Vision). Second time out we got up to speed a bit more... great ride... smooth, good power, handling is a breeze. Downside...only 2...handlebars too low and forward for me...would have to change them. Potholes seemed to cause the rear suspension to hit hard...maybe that's just some adjustment? Other than that, I like it a lot. Wife liked it a lot too...seating and foot rest position was real good for her and a lot less wind than the Victory. For the extra money I'd buy the Harley. Can't wait to test out that new Voyager.

I don't see why not... I had an '85 and there wasn't a lot of difference (if any) except maybe the mounting brackets might be a bit different...I can't really recall.

Good info Squeeze...thanks for that input and I don't necessarilly disagree. It all comes down to an individual's preferences, what works for that person and if, after road testing the Voyager, it works for me, I'll be having one. Now, as for that bet.... how much do you want to loose?? or better yet, how much do you have?? (care to put up yur new '09 V-max?)

That's true about the bugs -but- ... seems to me they still haven't gotten the bugs outta the RSV (I refer to the "whine")...what's it been now...10 years? With every new version of something, there are going to be bugs...that's why there are warranties and recals and updates....and as each newer model comes out, something new is added or something is changed resulting in more bugs...except of course in Yamaha's case with the RSV... they basically changed nothing in 10 years and the new ones still have the same bugs. Correct me if I'm wrong. If a person is going to buy a new scoot and there are 3 choices, the '09 Ultra, the '09 RSV, and the '09 Voyager (Voyager being entirely new and Ultra being re-designed and RSV being the same as the 1999 model essentially), which one would a person rule out first? ... Speaking for myself, I'm ruling out the '09 RSV simply because it's out dated and virtually nothing's changed since 1999. Except for the color differences, I might as well buy a 1999 for 1/4 the price. I'd have the same bike. No, that's not correct either coz a 1999 would have had all the bugs fixed If I was going to wait for the next generation RSV, that's a whole different scenario. Having said that, maybe I'll trade in my '09 scoot on the 3rd gen RSV.... Now, I'm not knocking the RSV at all...in fact, if I was going for a newer (used) scoot, the RSV is the ONLY one I'd be buying...and, that may well still happen.

24k .. ??? ... even up here I doubt it will be that high... I'll "venture" a guess at around 22k CDN for the "top model". It has to be competitive with the '09 Venture and the '09 Ultra and the Ultra (currently at 24,500 with ABS) is always going to be higher than the Venture. I think the Voyager will be right in between Venture and Ultra. BTW, I'm pretty sure I saw a new ('08) Venture going for around 17,5 at a local dealer.

oh well...guess my racing days will be over then ... Interesting debate we have going here.... shaft vs belt... why are bikes moving to belt drive? .... could it be so there is less HP loss at the wheel allowing for lower HP engines to have as much "power" as higher HP ones with shaft drives? Why are so many "higher powered" bikes running belts (or chain)? .... could it be that a shaft would have to be so "beefy" that it would be impractical? Why do most touring bikes have shaft drive?... could it be simply because they are so low maintenance and that's a big feature for touring?... could it be that a touring bike running a shaft drive requires more engine HP just to get a decent amount back to the rear wheel?... could it be...could it be... there are so many pro's and con's that we could sling back and forth... Considering your statement above...could it be that the Venture @ 97HP with a shaft has roughly the same at the wheel HP as the Voyager @ 89HP with a belt??..if that's the case, then it would feel pretty darned good to me, especially with all that torque and who gives a rat's ar$e if it has 400 more cc's. An interesting thought just entered my mind... wouldn't a lot of folks be upset if the next gen Venture came out with a majorly de-tuned '09 Vmax engine and a belt drive...a BELT drive on the new Venture!!! OMG!!! I think I just swore!

Well, according to the specs, the horsepower is just under what my '87 is (89 vs 97) and the torque is considerably more and at a lower RPM (108 @ 2750rpm) so, it would seem to me that it will be very close if not more powerful. Not to mention that a lot of "power" is lost in a shaft drive whereas it isn't so much in a belt. No, I don't believe I'm dreaming...but, the truth will be in the ride and I'll be the first one to admit if I am dreaming when that time comes. And yes, 1st gen's are fast....anyone here who knows them will attest to that fact. Bottom line is, I'm looking for a new scoot next spring and frankly, the newest version of the Venture is not in the running. Now, If I was looking for a "newer" scoot..say about 3 years old or so, then it would be a 2nd gen no questions asked.

Looking at what J&M is offering now in a M/C CB system, I can't see that anything being offered by Kawasaki would "tie up a saddle bag" .... these new-fangled CB systems are getting pretty compact and ya can't compare the size to that of a 6-CD changer LOL.

the 1st and 2nd gen's use ABS plastic if I'm not mistaken. Not sure what Harley uses (ABS or Fiberglass). Either one or the other on the Voyager.... both Harley and Venture stuff has some "bending and flexing". In fact, it almost scares me the way the Harley trunk material flexes but they seem to be pretty strong nevertheless.

hmmmmmmmmm.... well, even though I can beat my son's Sporty 1200 with my '87, that scoot has plenty power. When you crank that thing on, you really have to hang on tight. So, some V-twins DO have power ... and lot's of it. I'd "venture" a guess that this new Kaw will have lot's of power....plenty for the average person and frankly, I can't wait to find out just exactly how much but if it's anywhere close to my '87 then that's good enuf for me ;-)

I have an '87 VR that I'll trade "even steven" ........... NO?? awwwwww! .....welcome to our group.

I had an '83 Aspencade before I got my '85 Venture. IMHO, the Venture is a superior bike both in handling and performance and yes, the Wing seemed "heavy, mushy, and sluggish" in comparison.

I found this info...might be of some help. http://www.goldwing-world.com/gl-1200.htm

From what I understand, MSN requires an MSN "ID" ... something that is tied to an MSN acceptable email application such as Hotmail. Most of our users do not and never will get internet access from their PC. This app I am looking for must be for internal network only and utilizing either IP address or PC names and preferably user ID/login. This is how RealPopup works.