Patch

Keeping it short, Hmm

Guys I tell you I can hardly wait to get a new girlfriend cause, they keep me too busy to hangout with you's;) I am going to heed my English Coach wisdom and post shorter incomplete explanations this year. Be thankful I don't share my poetry or my short stories here....lol

This may surprise some but, I was once very into knives also for a period always carried at least 2. After an accident which limited my right side for a while I began fabricating my own blades and what we refereed to as street tools. It took me quite a while to break the "hobby habit" . Now at the most I may carry a 2.5" pocket knife. I can say that there is a mystique to them, to my eye short blades with a functional long grab are most temping to hold. Tho I won't

More like a Dimes worth I'm thinking

P; the first thing when posting in our club is to understand that we are here with a true want/need to help; there is no need to feel as tho we will take experience or lack of to a mocking level. So, having said this and with the understanding this is new to you, you can't have taken out the driveshaft in the couple of minutes between the 2 posts quoted above. Marcarl suggestion is where I would start and is what I posted as well. As for the brake, if the front wheel is locked and the bikes rear wheel isn't off the floor then the same stall will happen! So the question is now, does the bike roll/push easily, say in neutral? Patch

Well very sorry I missed this thread. At the risk of coming off as tho I am wanting a slice of alimony and knowing this is an old thread it is also one that can tie in a better understanding of crank efforts and ring issues! Skydoc is right to expect and receive a quicker response across rpm range. Positive crank pressures are a result of the moving parts but, also in large part a result of blow-by! The vacuum at the pcv (positive crankcase ventilation) is passive as in siphon only. The cost savings on such a pcv is short term minded from the factories period, as it is very inefficient; but, please heed this experience, it is absolutely a minimum requirement. I’d like to offer some acknowledgment to the tree huggers. A couple of the comments are correct but what skydoc has done, as is in addressing the concerns posted, is in fact to reduce overall emissions not increase them! And yet you huggers are correct that one piece of the effort is again not proper accepted practice so, what is the fix is a better argument than to fault the whole exercise. Now Puc in his own way was on to something. The answer is and oil-trap, but it cannot be in the form of a P-trap. Recently I posted and mentioned crank balance during normal engine operation; I assume we all read that I referring to active balance not weight balancing as I referred to effort. So once again skipping over crank timing: We run 4 cycle engines thankfully (I could imagine the fun of justifying 2 stroke in any size room with even one tree hugger among us;) ) Out of the 4 strokes only 1 produces energy. the remaining consume. The intake stroke slows the crank as it generates vacuum then the compression stroke slows the crank more and the exhaust stroke is a matter of time with little back pressure created by valves and ports (say 3.5 lbs) By reducing effort on the intake stroke to achieve filling skydoc has realized a slight higher percentage of fill, meaning a closer stoichiometric, so a higher more efficient expansion/burn over the same stroke distance or duration but, time over distance traveled is accelerated has noted in the outcome! What we performance junkies appreciate about easier air flows is gains that keep velocity up, which this will do if maintained. What has been overlooked is the blow-by however! So skydoc when can I expect my check? And when will you be offering an oil trap with a split pipe for drainage? Patch;)

“She runs fine, when I put her in gear and let out the clutch the transmission acts like its locked up. The bike will stall out if I let the clutch out all the way. Doesn't matter what gear it is in, she dies. My dad was wondering if the bearing seized on the output shaft. we are pullin the clutch basket to see if there is any issues on the clutch side of the engine.” The most difficult part of troubleshooting over the net is not getting clear answers to simple questions. I see your dads point but, marcarl's question could also be a fault so why not check that box? Now what your dad is mentioning has happened and is a known issue on a few bikes but not that I have heard of on these. The output bearing would have had to run dry, heat then cool as I assume it was driving well before storage!? When an output bearing seizes the bike pilot is usually catapulted forward! We could try this approach: rear wheel off the ground, bike in first gear rock the wheel by hand and listen for noise before the gearbox. Or: the wheel is off, the driveshaft is out, start the engine, place in 1st gear, release the clutch. Does it stall? For all we know the brake could be seized. Patch

My new English Coach suggests I could conciser less alphabet in my posts, hmm? I had to laugh and mentioned that to my old friend SK who also was an employee for many years lol... He agreed ): So, the vacuum stroke is key to performance - it’s on this stroke that air and gas mix to form the fuel ratios we spend so much coin trying to achieve and burn. When we assume that all is equal we, without doing the math or checking via measurements, that questions and disappoint begin to set in and, we begin the process of compounding mistakes. Before I express my experience and why I feel saddlebum question is one of the best I’ve read in a while is because we naturally assume too much too often. Performance engines do not stay calibrated on their own. This fact is why some folks are better at tuning than others who may be better at building or say applying the given power on track days! I’d like cover something that I know our club demographics can associate to. In the 60s and with Webber setups we began tweaking our jug filling techniques. Many of the English engines were moving more towards bike setups such as 4 and 6 carbs or one per jug. Then the 70s was more focused on plenums and lifts & duration's with quads and a short period of 6 packs. How many of us remember our 1st kick at those setups? I remember my first heart sinking when I read the vacuum gauge “where the heck did I go wrong”? So next on the street warrior side of the sport we began spending insane amounts of coin on blowers to bring the beast to life, right. How many of us scrapped heads just porting and polishing! Today’s youth is all about turbos and their mods make no damn sense to me, whether its diesel or gas. They have reversed our experience with intakes and now apply our growing mistakes - to the exhaust ports by modding in dead exhaust flows all the while thinking the turbo will magically force the spent charge down the pipe through a seated intake valve!? Make any sense to yo'll.. Back to naturally aspirated engines: So, vacuum balances the crank, how? Well it has to do with input and output and is why the simpler the measure of vacuum is, the quicker the find is to the imbalance! I always set my throttle plates then read vacuum! Think about that. Let me spark a thought: Visualize the process of an intake stroke – to do this you need consider time over distance; now lets break this down and for this exercise we will reach a conclusion that can only be attributed to velocity & volume losses due to drag. Vacuum is a result of applied energy, right, it is in fact a bleed off of the preceding combustion stroke lets say off of #2s contribution to the applied torque (forces in rotation) to the crank: (pause, now I know that the math is around 430* so let us just run to jug #4 as #2s energy should be allocate to #3 compression stroke say +/- the * angle shared difference) (it doesn’t help to muddy this exercise with the understanding of crank timing:… ) Now here’s the point: if 90* is a closed throttle plate (it isn’t tho) and 70* is idle and high vacuum and, they are all at 70* then the velocity and volume should be eq. assuming ware is eq. across the board! But if #4 s vacuum is lower, than the tuner will likely set that plate tighter maybe as much as 10*or; if it is higher then he will reverse the angle to get closer to eq. readings, regardless of sync tool used. Now the complete sync turns into a vacuum balance chase as he rolls thru each carb! By the time he has reach an acceptable balance at say 1200 RPM (that is a leftover from the days of stick syncing) the volumes passing each plate are way too off scale, yet velocity is being driven by the 4 contributions to the crank thru unequal fuel pickup being "vacuumed/siphoned thru jets! Now lets look at the drag: Vacuum causes drag from TDC to BDC because, it has to be generated by the down travel distance of the piston. The resistance from the air box orifice thru the V. stacks passing the slides, picking up fuel and adding more drag, then past the throttle plate at velocity each of which increase the amount of drag thus slows the piston x 4 "it becomes a matter of time/duration! When all 4 are in sync this provides a smooth balance to the crank! Assuming ignition is solid. Now we still need to consider the ports and the multi valve system design which by the way is not designed for velocity at low rpms, that would be useless to a sport machine! So, at the very moment you are syncing - the port is under high vacuum but low velocity because it is larger the plate opening, so volume is not considered rather it is assumed! This means that close attention needs to be paid to whatever the gauges used read at the start of sync because, at higher demands that sync can ruin the power band where velocities and volumes count much more and are hardest to achieve! One final comment on this parallel: total displacement divided by 4 is only a potential and cannot be achieved thru dohicky tuning and is rarely above 65 – 70 % on naturally aspirated engines so making every tweak count is essential. Let me tie this in: In gearheads thread which was a confusing one, we can clearly see by the results at the end as more facts came to be known that the premature limit of that engine was reached as result of internet gossip. It was a clear lack of understanding theory and, lack of maintenance at the carb level, period. As a result of over fueling, temperatures dropped, carbon built up, compression number climbed, pre ignition then turned it into a washing machine. Note our exchange over “bench syncing” as the first step! The mistake and I see it over the net even by “Motorcycle Tech’s” is due to not beginning the sequence correctly. https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?141445-87-VR-carb-problem/page2 Post #16 Having worked on European sport engines I can tell you 1st hand that chasing vacuum problems is a nightmare. There is rarely an easy way to simply track them down! Sometimes the best way is to understand the rpm range, track it to throttle position, then determine where to look for the imbalance. Harder than it sounds when you have a module performing compensations resulting from monitor signals and feedback, and yet, it is just a vacuum leak or lack of balance! Not a problem we need to face on these engines in this forum but an example of why following procedures is the correct way to begin. Back to sticks for a moment not my favorite but effective for touring; then again so is a drill bit yet put in the hands of an experience tuner he/she will not know there lies a question below the carbs in need of resolve!. When we cal the sticks off of one manifold then they should be in sync discounting time and heat fluctuation over that period, good enough. But in the hands of a less experienced person the likely first choice will be to compensate, makes sense but incorrect and the follow through won’t be there. They likely won’t know to check throttle positions and, therefore say at WOT when vacuum drops volume will be unequal and that results in a performance issue! That also means ratios are out, combustion temperature is out, imbalance has reached the crank via torque (ignition, duration and expansion – is off even if spark is good and advance is adequate) the crank roll is inconsistent or as they say today unexpected! And so you have these imbalances right through the potential range of output! A tuner would have to be distracted to make such a mistake, a hobbyist simply does not know and will not grow from the experience unless we share ours! The more the sync tool dictates to him, or buffers the input readings the less he suspects the need to look further! So the answer is yes you will see it but will they understand it? Will they follow through and check compression and lash or even the outcome on plate position? And the above is why I chose my VacuumMate! Patch Right Puc;)

Yep you is goin to need a lawyer Carl! I wasn't even trying and you have changed your story, admitted to.... When I was a younger man an older gangster looked across the table and said, on this side of the table I am abetting, if I bet roung then you are abetting that I don't mention you aided, get my drift kid! We'll you spilled over the net so what's cha thinking.. Lol

Well Carl, I do have a smart comment to add to those already tossed your way; but seeing as the new year at at our doorstep I will maintain repose. Could you for my sake explain why the s10 was parked? The gas was for your son? Or the guy that escaped? Either way I guess you are involved in "aiding & abetting" hmm any chance you raised a lawyer?

Yup solid post!

Yes Mr. Dawson I see your point and, knew it when I wrote the schedule! Allow me to pivot on your point without pointing finger to you specially, but rather seizing the opportunity! So let me expose a thought I have been keeping to myself for a while. As we know I enjoyed troubleshooting with Bongo, true we came at it from say sometimes apposing angles but neither one of us didn’t pick-up from where the other left off and, we hung in there till and for as long as the OP was willing. Bongo is playing and likely lending a hand to members when needed in his new club so, it is up to this surviving membership to step up and fill in the how too blanks. There is nothing I scheduled that we all haven’t witnessed, read and explained many times before. Do I know if the OP has an ignition gap tester, no, and not likely; do I know you guys can walk him through it, post where and for how much he can find one, absolutely! When OP begins looking for the pickup connection I have zero doubt that prairiehammer & video arizona and others will post clear pics, and instructions right down to driver size! How many people has this club helped polish their skills and enjoy their ownership and membership then to stay on afterwards to continue in what makes this club different from the rest of the net B.S.?! Time to stir the coals boys. Patch

Well Mr. Dawson I'm with you on the bucket but did you overlook somethin? hmm

For : John Carman/Jcfuzzzyface47 29/12/19 Interesting problem, so, requires some assumptions be drawn. With Mileage and history not known; I would be curious to know witch control box is on the bike? The 30 psi tells us that the piston is displacing and likely not holed. If for example you were reading between 50 & 60 psi there would be a fair chance for some promising gains. Looking for connections between the timing in sequence such as 2&3 it is a safe bet that you have a failed pickup circuit. That is an easy fix and you just happen to have spares;) Still we need to follow procedures to prove or disprove each potential! I can’t say that changing the engine instead of repairing what’s in the bike is the better choice, yet; that is! On one of my projects I brought a 4 cyl. From 45 above 150 psi using the fogging post we have tho, it was with the use of harsher chems than expressed in the post! Where to start: 1st house power needs to be reliable (battier V.) I use a spare car unit with cables. Measure voltage at the coils and log it, key set & run to on. 2nd measure resistance at the pickups, log it. 3rd using a spark gap tester determine each arch jump, log it. 4, remove picture each plug numbered by which jug they come from post them. 5, spin the engine no plugs and note if there is any slowing during the rotations. Does one stroke seem to slow the spin? Then look and listen to the engine thru each carb, (use protective eyewear) is there any pressure or spitting up thru the carbs? Report back with results Did I mention to disconnect the fuel pump and drain each carb bowl into a white container??? 6, drop the pipes, one way or the other they’ll need to be so we can use this now for checking exhaust carbon buildup and if need be cleaning. After pipes are off repeat the spinning of the engine cupping your hand over the exhaust ports; any vacuum pressure felt there is a fault! 7, remove the carbs, either way they need attention are worth quick cash assuming you have another set with the replacement? 8, spin it again now coupling your and over the intake pipes one at a time, it will surprise you but shouldn’t suck your hand off on these engine at these pressures Now do it this way, starting at 2 then 4 3&1 when you do 2 cover both intake and exhaust ports, yes you will need an assistant to push your buttons, preferably one that won’t distract you as she leans over;) Report back your findings and we’ll see what the guys think. So some are thinking “leak down test” yes but in any case the above will also prove just as or more effective and, it all needs doing in any case. Patch actually as many will attest to here my English is like the worst of the troubleshooting ---End Quote--- The one on bike1,3 & 4 run 140-150 psi, #2 about 20-30 psi. a shot of oil brought 1,3 & 4 up to 165-170. #2 maybe up 5 psi. Not sure of mileage but speedo is about 10,000, sure that's not right extra engine mileage about 40K. Compression on all cylinders are 140-150 shot of oil 185-190. Engine on bike is running but hits only on 2-3 cylinders.

Well you can bring me the bike, ship the engine or, go here https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?137296-A-Case-for-Fogging&highlight=case+fogging There is obviously more that one issue here in play. I'll mull it over for a bit and come up with a troubleshooting plan if you are up for that. Patch

So I was up north with no internet. One night I drove down to a town for supper read a bit and post. So sitting in this pub with a crowd of 3;) I read this post and immediately fell for your whit and humor and burst out laughing! Good one bring more Patch

Not sure where you are with this? If you haven't swapped it yet post the compression results and mileage... Patch

Right on! And I bet you get most mature (before 99) engines running and warmed up with "no batteries required"

Hmm, are you guys ever getting old! Its Yama Mama in leathers! Don't ya'll remember the last image of Mama in leathers? Hope you get a new battier, jeepers man, she's just teasing us;) Patch

Sorry to here the news Cha! Spoke to an uncle last week back home; he is now 91 and living his last moments. When he mentioned he was dying my comment was we all are, it was the living that counts. I thanked him for being there for me as a young man before and after my life changes. I also got to thank him for being my friend! So to my way of thinking I finally showed some of those early teachings he gifted me! Carry on Cha, you have a life to live;)

Thanks Cha, I'm good! How is Dad doin?

Sorry guys been dealen with.... Forum: The question is (would we not see that in reading the vacuum…) by Saddlebum/trampofnorthernOnt. 1st. I am writing at the moment without internet access but, have had this post in mind for a while so thought I’d get-r-done! Carl has PM’d wondering why I have stopped or haven’t been picking on grasshopper/Puc? Especially at this time of the year (he said) being the perfect time to catch him off guard,,, with all that cheer stuff and good will blabla Puc preaches… so let’s kick some theory into practice and see if we can perk demthere lopsided pointy ears of Puc our way;) Likely you all know I view any engine from the crank up. Every rotation accrues as a result of energy applied and spent, at the moment she begins to rotate. Just picking numbers here: let’s say the starter turns driving #1 up to compression @ +/- TDC the plug ignites (more energy spent). Let’s visualize this stroke segment: say #1 is @ BTC ,,, in order for it to hit TDC it must travel say 3” and then thru house power multiplied by X (what’s X) the plug electrode jumps to ground and unleashes spark. Under which below will this stroke cause combustion to accrue? 1)The jug is below operating temperature: 2)@ or close to operating temperature: 3)If the bike is fuel injected: 4)The throttle was blipped before pressing the start: 5)The plugs are new and 3) or 4) applies: 6)the engine can only start on this stroke if the engine had been running less than 15 +/- minutes before: B) and related how: would valve position influence the outcome given the above format? C) “ “ if a valve were to be open at BDC which valve would it be? If you are not sure of the answer take a chance and describe your puzzle. If you know the answer share it and why;) I hopefully will be able to follow-up this weekend or early next week. Patch

Ah that why he rides a horse:) when its time the horse gets Bum home eh

Look guys I am just a defenseless poor mature French Canadian minority. Doin my best to keep up and not get horsed over! You two keep pickin on me and I might just have to lesson my meds, get serious and bring my very best.. I'm thinkin we need to spend some quality time together? We should do it up here in the Rockies; you could ride up between November snow flakes? Den when its time for yous to head home it'll be a quick trip cause its all downhill well mostly sept Manitoba where; you could catch your breath, a chill to the bone and, change underwear

All right good point, so sticking to the fresh side and NO plenum. So in the above we assume negative lash. Not too dissimilar to what Puc was suggesting. Here a trained ear will provide the shortcut but how would we set the benchmark to know lash verses Puc's burnt valve potential if dealing with intake side. The easy out here is of course the jug pressure which should measured first in all cases. But lets follow the trail you lay it out: Lets choose an easy bench, say 100psi. #2 is consistently 90 psi or 10% low 1,3&4 are within 3to4% +/- just to set the scenario. #2 appears to show a minor leak, lash, crack (s) or seat,, all 3 could be the cause but only one is correctable without head removal. So when we think to solve the issue via lash adjustment we consider stretch or ware and both have room for compensation. Points of ware can also be from the lobe, right. If the stem has stretched regardless of type of adjustment we reduce (stating the obvious) but why am I not simply just answering the vacuum question? Well because in this case the problem is obvious. No plenum so each compression stroke produces pressure leakage thru the carb body! This shows on the gauge via shaky needle so that would be the answer. But not helpful for the less experienced fellow using a merc stick right. And for that reason ignoring the pre-steps to carb syncing produces bad results, just as bleeding a stick to compensate say for the lack of a throttle bench sync after a cleaning or rebuild! Yet how many tune the sticks without knowing the potential you mention above? Summing up, syncing the bodies is the last step before the final idle & idle circuit mixture; the real work are the steps preceding the sync! In my witness to to too many threads in many forums the steps mentioned above are ignored or happen in reverse, if at all!