cowpuc

Noticing you are from California??? If so, I have to ask,,,, are you one of my kids that moved out there (this is the kind of post that "Waahoo" or "Cappy" would make)?? If so,,, GET BACK TO WORK CLEANING THE HOUSE CAUSE MOM AND I ARE GONNA BE HEADED OUT VERY SOON (off spring today,,, always on their gear headed geezer biker dad who's still liven, loven and totally missing those days of Hot Rod heaven:178:). Yep,,, I gotta totally agree,,, I truly do think that had Mom Yam actually stuck one of those monster torque producing, 190 Horse 1700cc V-4 V-Max motors in a bike with that front end that screams "I AM MUSCLE = COME TOUR IF YOU DARE" there REALLY would be a waiting line to obtain one and the mission statement that Mom Yam made that said "we are gonna turn the touring world upside down" would have actually been a fact instead of a debate... Yep,,, they:

After the techno glitch on the new SVTC happened at Sturgis (shown in the video below at 2:25 on the time line) , I actually asked the factory techs if there was any concern on their part about the speed that computer technology becomes obsolete now that a major selling/marketing point for new touring bikes leans so heavy on technology (thinking the modern "info systems" therein are nothing more then little computers).. My initial thoughts revolved around another - moment cause it seems to me like some of this computer stuff is almost obsolete by the time it gets into the consumers hands (I know,,, another one of those "Puc's crazy" moments but hey,, gimmeee a break - I am no puter geek)... Those savvy techs straightened me out though and informed me that what you guys are getting on the new bikes is miles ahead of the game and that the younger generation of new touring riders was gonna love the stuff (they knew my old school bikin way equates to less=more).. That said,, I am actually not surprised that the technology items being hidden within the technology on the SVTC is one of something planned for the future.. Makes sense..

Hey lop eared Venture lovin varmint,,,, ya forgot something!!! and not to get to far away from my normal ,, :stickpoke:ways,,, I wonder if the grey one is faster the the red one:guitarist 2:

As far as I know, it's only Polaris who charges their dealerships for the demo days... My point in stating that was to show that all floor planning/franchise agreements brand to brand are not the same.. Make sense? Concerning people going out and demoing with no intent of purchasing,, fact is, while the end result of any demo is the hope that the product does eventually produce sales, most if not all manufacturers doing demo days (like the Yamaha Demo's at Sturgis) do not have the capabilities of selling you a scoot on site. If you do get off the bike and say you are ready to purchase, they will look up a dealership for you and pass you on to said dealer - that too is part of the franchise agreement.. The demo's are all about getting the product into peoples hands under a no pressure to purchase scenario so the product gets exposure. It's sort of like a consumers version of the manfacturers press ride where the total purpose of the "demo" is to produce articles in bike magazines with the hope that somebody may read about the product...

Just park it in the front yard with a planter on its seat and a flower in it... Most theives are dumb,, they would just think it was some kind of oriental rose garden. DEFINITELY don't go pushing the thing around brother,,, I agree,, not worth risking redamaging that foot!!! HEAL UP NOW and ride later!!!!!!!! Fool you ever ride one of those scooters - 400cc or bigger?? Neighbor bought a new 600 Honda,,, thing FLEW and was amazingly stable on the open road... ABS, stereo.... Seem to be very hard sellers too - have seen em cheap... To bad this pond is between us or you could get one, Tip n I could ride our Helix and we could start a club...

Good question Yamster... I really have no clue, never had a Yamaha franchise so I really am not sure how their Floor Plan lprotocol is set up.. All manufactures are different though so you really cant compare one to the other when it comes to wondering why one brand's dealership does it one way and another the other.. Case in point,,, a LOT of folks may not realize this but Polaris actually charges their dealerships hard cold cash for factory "demo's" done at the store. Just their fleet rate for bringing in the bikes is $3500 per Indian Head truck per day. A good way to tell how well a particular dealership is doing is to ask for their demo schedule - if they tell you they opted out of demo days routine - its probably cause their sales are down - sort of a negative of a Polaris .. On the other hand though,,, per HD's floor plan,,, those dealerships are VERY limited on the off names they are allowed in used bikes.. I stood and watched the Polaris Indian guys load up over 20 used HD's after a dealer auction and those scoots were headed for the used bike section floor space (the Polaris floor plan allows the dealerships to use the competitors brand for marketing puose - GREAT IDEA!!! and HUGE + for those franchises)... Perhaps an more applicable franchise agreement protocol related to your question could be found with Honda.. Those dealerships are allowed to sell out of their specified district BUT - they are not allowed to ship outside of it.. If you go online and look up a new Wing, in Ebay lets say... If you find one from the store in Russelville AR and read their ad closely you will notice that they clearly state that the buyer MUST come to the store and pick up the new bike - they will not ship (I only mention the Russelville dealership cause I know they include their floor plan agreement language in thier ads - some Honda dealers do not include this and deal with it privately with each customer) - fact is,, if they did get caught shipping a bike out of district they would lose their franchise and Honda is very serious about it... That said,,, I do know for a fact that more then one new Wings have gone from Arkansas up to Canada because of the discounting that dealership offers BUT - ALL of those bikes were customer pickup and nothing to do with the manufacturer removing a scoot from one low selling spot to fulfill the demand in another zone...

I am totally there XV, matter of fact, I took my infra red temp ray gun along with me to Sturgis last year with doing exactly what you mention in mind, along with a list of questions from our members here to ask the Reps. After an oppsss moment when comparing old and new as shown in the 1st video below,,,, followed by kind of a rough start to my initial attempt at asking those questions as shown in video 2,,,,, when I finally did get the attention of the factory "tech guys" as instructed in video 2 I think the word had gotten out that I was not quite normal and they refused to allow my temp gun on site.. I still think your idea of taking the bikes tempature is a valid, scientific method of testing as, regardless of engine size or whatever - a measured temp gives a good basis for knowing what the rider/passanger is going to be subjected to IMHO.. I am one who believes it doesnt really make any difference in where/what/who/how the heat source is = a measured 200 degrees (example) is 200 degrees.. Another simple test that I would LOVE to see done, and maybe - someday an owner of one of the new bikes would be willing to participate in this,, would be to put comparable payloads on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Gens - stick em top gear - run em down to 35 mph with a camera on the speedo's, open em up on a flat surface and see how long it takes each one to hit 100 mph with no down shifting.. IMHO, this should reveal some torque/hp questions concerning the bikes..

Had the big 1st 2018 meeting with my Pucs Meet Greet and Eat Meat staff today. Looking at the summer weather, so far it appears Fool and Bum are gonna allow us a one day summer for a ride in Hot Dog cook out this year and that day looks like it may show itself on Tuesday, May 1st. To take advantage of what appears might be this one day summer riding opportunity = if all goes well, as explained in the briefing video link below,,, our target is to the north in what remains of the quaint little town of Hart Mi (residents of said town = we will try to leave the towns remains in at least as good as condition as we found it when we depart - lop eared VR varmints honor!!). One of my staff members has been in lunar contact with Elvis who has been circling Earth with the Aliens who abducted him and apparently he has also been anxiously waiting for this 24 hours of summer to get here too so he could come and show off some new unearthly moves his abductors have taught him since last summers MGnEM shows. It sounds like Elvis is also ready to go full swing.. Nothing concrete yet cause I don't wanna encourage Fool, Bum and/or Murph to cover the concrete up on my driveway again (have faith though,, I do = I actually removed the blower off my tractor today, sharpened blades, greased the spindles and installed the deck!!) but,, if your a pilot - be thinking to launch the hot dog attack at 1 p.m. in Hart on the 1st May!!! WHAT SAY YOU? LETS KICK THE TIRES AND LIGHT THE FIRES!!! p.s. - all Puc's MGnEM's are open to ALL comers,,,, including family members and even neighbors!! FREE all you can eat Hot Dogs, Chips, Pops, waters and what ever other kind of snacks we have laying around in the cupboards.. All Puc MGnEM's are 100% child friendly. P.S. - relevant address and further event info will be posted here later this weekend so our staff can monitor the sky's to the west of Michigans Lake Shore for Wisconsin White Washer activity. We will be watching there,, you lop eared varmints be watching here!!!

I was out touring the Adrondack's going like this with my head with Tippy holding me down in Tweeks seat as I about what I had just seen at the new Venture unveiling at Lake George/Americade so I missed all the Victory stuff going on around here at the time Lenny.. I will say this though,, right after I made my initial "OHHH POOP" comment when they started the bikes off in the darkness before they pulled them up in front of us front row sitters I also looked at Tip and said "sounds like Jon's (nephew) Strat but when they pulled them up in front of us my thoughts on that comment changed and I told her - "It looks like Arlen Ness jumped ship from Victory - it has those lines!!".. After we got home and got back here to the club house I do remember all the chit chat about the Victory likeness and all that and also spent some time following the abandoned by Polaris - Victory rider comments on the Victory sites and TOTALLY remember all the comments made about jumping ship to the Venture Lenny.. Matter of fact,, I was actually shocked to see/hear what seemed like more :Im not listening toon the Victory sites than that of our own about the new machine - definitely a lot of chat about possibly buying a new machine.. Now that you bring this up,,, I too wonder what happened to all that chat... It didnt really occur to me to even bother watching the Honda sites back then so cant comment about that time frame on the Wing sites but,, when Honda announced this new Wing I immediately joined numerous Wing sites to follow along (especially knowing Honda was going 4 valve).. I can say that sense that time (I think that was Sept. or something of last fall) - I have with great enthuiasim watched it all unfold on those sites and seriously,, I have seen very little chat about disgruntled Wing riders even talking about moving over to the new Venture.. If anything,, IMHO - there seems to be a pretty strong push to latch onto left over pre 18 Wings y the disgruntled if anything... Obviously I too share in your about what we are seeing with the movement from the Wing riders onto the new one... One thing about motorcycles and the people who ride em my friend,,, we are an unpredictable, amazing bunch of lop eared varmints... Personally,,, I am 100% enjoying the new company and making new friends no matter where they come from... Definitely exciting times and nothing is more fun than yakkin bikes!!!!!

a wasp,,, up his pant leg right at the exact moment that he loosens the last bolt holding the handlebar on the perch ,,,, that right there is a Murphy classic if there ever was one brother = you and I DEFINITELY are related Seriously you guys,,, you might wanna listen to VentureFar's here and cover that gorgeous tank BEFORE doing any work up top - I hear tell there are wasp's found in ALL of North America and besides,, what can it take - all of an additional 15 seconds to toss a cover on it???? Unreal

Good on ya Yamster!! I am thinking very seriously about doing a 1st time in my life bike rental this year too.. I would LOVE to spend a day on the new Wing and then another one on the new Beemer Grand America. I am a glutten for performance based touring scoots and still see no reason why a modern day touring rider cant have his cake and eat it too when it comes to getting serious work load capacity (high torque) as well as requiring that work load be completed in record breaking time and with record breaking speed (high HP).. I have always been impressed with my little 1200cc V-4 and its ability to crawl up a mountain in 5th gear at 50mph fully loaded but then also break 105 mph/into the 12's in the 1/4 mile and 130+ out on the salt at Bonneville. That said, I just have a sneaking hunch that both the new Wing and the new Beemer (both considerably larger motors that my 74 inch 1st Gens have been) are gonna be user friendly in that way. Similar to all this discussion about heat and stuff on the new Venture,, the owner/riders of those two bikes have a constant going on about whether or not their rumored speed limiters (new Wing = 112 mph,, new Beemer 101 mph ) are in fact for real and,, being of the "gotta find out for myself" type,,, I intend to - among other things - find out the reality of such a device. I also have a non-rental, all day "demo" ride invite on the V-4 Motus that I am VERY anxious to take advantage of too, that particular breed is definitely farther down the line of "sport touring" but it still should be fun.. Looking forward to reading your reporting on your new bike and also your on the HD or whatever else you get to go play on and also cant wait to on where ever the open road leads me too!! Gonna a be a GREAT summer my friend!!!!!!! Puc

I wouldnt have a clue about this in Canada but here in the States, motorcycle rentals seem fairly common. Matter of fact, I have ran into numerous folks both from outside our country and citizens while out CTFW who claimed to be riding rented bikes - no different than renting a car for travel if I understand it correctly.. I actually have even ran into lots of folks at places like the Sturgis Rally that were riding rented bikes and the last couple times I attended there I noticed a fair amount of Polaris Indian repops buzzing around the area and told Tippy that it appeared that maybe there was some truth to the Polaris claims about putting a dent in HD's skid plates.. I later learned that the local Polaris shop in Sturgis was renting the bikes and that the vast majority of the Polaris Indians we saw attending the rally were indeed = rentals... I may be totally and 100% wrong about this cause I have personally never actually rented one (gotta be a much more knowledgable/experienced club member who would know for sure) but I am pretty sure that renting is totally doable here..

Just to refresh: VentureFar - another forum member wrote and quoted in post 16 above: ''The heat coming off the rear cylinder exhaust on the left side is a real issue in warm weather. It never got above about 73 degrees on this ride, but on my Eluder Death Valley ride it got up to 78. When I was going 35 mph, my left leg was hot enough to be raising my internal body temperature, or at least it felt that way. I am concerned how the heat will affect me when I am riding in stop and go traffic in the California summer. There are adjustable lower fairing ducts. When closed on a cool morning, the exhaust heat felt good but as the day warmed up the flow-through tunnels did not seem to move the heat that rises from the left side exhaust. I could feel the warmth on my left thigh all day, even in the cool of the morning.'' And then another VR forum member known as Cowpuc (me) made this clear statement: ""I have personally ridden all three bikes that the "Titan's of Touring" comparison in Rider Magazine (the one I extracted pics from and also the one that Chief is linking you to below) and long before that article was written - stated clearly that my experience was the Polaris Roadmaster was by far the hottest (wayyy hotter than the 103 that Freebird talks about getting baked by too), seconded by the Yam and the HD definitely runs alot cooler on the legs and backside.. Ironically,, that article where the Yam takes the Gold states exactly the same finding.. Knowing that there are some folks,, not everyone but some,,, who do consider desert touring as part of the touring experience - I simply think that including in the additional costs of adding upgrades,, to be apples to apples - it may be wise to consider what it would cost to upgrade the Yamaha to water cooled heads and add that in.. Just like adding in any other non-standard items the other way around... Just being fair... "" www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8t52ROZCxg :big-grin-emoticon::big-grin-emoticon::big-grin-emoticon::big-grin-emoticon::big-grin-emoticon::big-grin-emoticon::big-grin-emoticon::big-grin-emoticon::big-grin-emoticon::big-grin-emoticon:

I have personally ridden all three bikes that the "Titan's of Touring" comparison in Rider Magazine (the one I extracted pics from and also the one that Chief is linking you to below) and long before that article was written - stated clearly that my experience was the Polaris Roadmaster was by far the hottest (wayyy hotter than the 103 that Freebird talks about getting baked by too), seconded by the Yam and the HD definitely runs alot cooler on the legs and backside.. Ironically,, that article where the Yam takes the Gold states exactly the same finding.. Knowing that there are some folks,, not everyone but some,,, who do consider desert touring as part of the touring experience - I simply think that including in the additional costs of adding upgrades,, to be apples to apples - it may be wise to consider what it would cost to upgrade the Yamaha to water cooled heads and add that in.. Just like adding in any other non-standard items the other way around... Just being fair... Here is another article written by a long time Venture rider with many thousands of miles under his belt on the Gen 2 who has experience in some of the warmer touring climates.. In this article found here in its entirety: https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2018/03/01/iron-butt-comparison-2018-yamaha-star-venture-vs-personalized-2007-royal-star-venture/ the writer openly explains his experience on both the new Venture and the Eluder in which he clearly states: ''The heat coming off the rear cylinder exhaust on the left side is a real issue in warm weather. It never got above about 73 degrees on this ride, but on my Eluder Death Valley ride it got up to 78. When I was going 35 mph, my left leg was hot enough to be raising my internal body temperature, or at least it felt that way. I am concerned how the heat will affect me when I am riding in stop and go traffic in the California summer. There are adjustable lower fairing ducts. When closed on a cool morning, the exhaust heat felt good but as the day warmed up the flow-through tunnels did not seem to move the heat that rises from the left side exhaust. I could feel the warmth on my left thigh all day, even in the cool of the morning.'' Its to bad that this writer had to do his testing during the winter months and could not have experienced some actual normal summer tempts (95 to 110 degrees) that the area which he was riding in (southern Cal, Arizona,, Death Valley = areas that many many people consider part of any transcontenintal touring experience) to have experienced what an air cooled V-Twin may really have been like concerning heat but,,, IMHO and past experience with all three of the bikes mentioned in the Titans article,, his stated concerns with the Venture/Eluder = even in the 70's was/is a valid one. Personally,, if I was going to pay out serious money (and IMHO,, anything over 10 grand for an engine and two wheels is truly serious money) I would wanna demo and rent the socks off a perspective purchase and ride it in as close to the extremes of any potential CTFWing I would be doing and I would do so 2 up if thats what I was gonna do just so I would know exactly what I was getting... I have known more than one person who side stepped that,,,,,,, made the purchase only to find out that WOWZY WOW WOW WOW - the wife/kid on the back could no way on Gods green earth survive the heat that was being laid out.... On the same token though,,, I also know that the magazine reporting that I have read about the new age of touring riders actually WANTING to get burned/baked holds some truth so hey,,,,,,,,, what ever makes ya smile,,, all I am saying is knowing what I am getting into before I take the plunge has always worked for me.....

Having heard and seen many different evidences of how well and/or not so well that the new air cooled, belt driven, V-Twin Venture/Eluder is selling (having read accounts from reliable sources that, especially up in Canada, the new machine is sold out for 2018 but then seeing the complete opposite happening here locally) I thought it might be interesting to see what kind of statistics we might see in our club.. I have been watching with interest how the new Wing is performing in a similar poll on a big Wing site... IMHO,, because the design and drive train selection for the new Venture actually came about by advice from the Star Touring Group,,, it would be interesting to hear how the new bike is doing in sales according to their group statistics too. If you, or someone you know, happens to be a member there - please feel free to comment on how things appear to be unfolding therein too... I realize that "Star Touring" is a closed site and, due to that,,, may also require their members to be tight lipped about such statistics.. If so,,, please abide by their rules and pay no attention to my request as I am just being nosey, my typical self and curious... Hope this don't land me back in the penalty box with Dan and Fool but if it does,, oh well,,, at least I will be back on familiar ground and in good company! THANKS FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION!!!! Puc

Just to keep our club's records transparent, honest and fair - the pics below clearly state what the 2018 HD Road Glide comes standard with and those items do include Sirus and CB... IMHO,, the heated grips/seat thoughts above are note worthy but, having experienced concerns over getting burned by hot engines/exhausts in certain environments - especially excrutiating for a passanger if touring 2 up, would bring me to the point that - if considering touring on a big Twin that I would wantask the same question about the costs for adding water cooling to the Yamaha as a comparison to what it would cost to add the heated seat/grips to the HD = fair is fair IMHO.. As noted, the Road Glide also includes other items as standard equipment such as Heal Toe which is far from a few dollar additional cost if wanted for the Venture and then,, as much as folks really dont seem to want to go here,, pain for paint - quality of chrome for chrome and accessory for accessory availability PLUS the fact that the two bikes are only 500 bucks apart from each other as shown in the pics - IMHO,, that gap is far narrower than what some people may be under the impression that it is.. Just sayin it like it is..... Puc

Now this is just my nobody's opinion so take this with the perverbial grain of causious salt but there are a few VR club members around here that consider our club kind of like a "family",,,,, and we prefer to play somewhat differently than the normal, everyday "forums" that may be found on other sites.. This, "Family Oriented", club style manifests itself in many ways and one of the more formidable ways is the uncanny joy a few of us find in keeping pictures and posts around (sort of like some families keep scrap books and family pictures around just for their great memory and sentimental value) from years long gone by... I suppose it is possible as things change that, indeed,,, there will come a time when our sacred memories (to a few) in the form of past posts and pictures will be deemed un-needed and deleted as the times truly do seem to be changing BUT,, I for one,,, would cast my lowly vote for our club's management to hold off on doing so,,,, but I am but one lone voice in a sea of many... Puc

Part of my CTFW makeup and being one who still lives/rides by The Code - requires me to, if possible, stop and help my brothers/sisters who find themselves stalled on the side of the road or trail on a scoot - all brands/models. Been pretty much that way my whole life... I have, on more than one occasion, stopped to help in a popped belt situation and I have witnessed the perverbial failure from debris BUT - I gotta say - it is amazing (IMHO) how uncommon that actually is.. Statistically, it is a far less of an occurrence that getting a flat tire from the same = IMHO... If I recall,, without looking at my Youtube blog about the new Venture,, the new one is right hand drive and still not a design that requires a splitting of the primary/clutch (as a left side drive HD does = SAD when you stop to help a brother in need who has popped a belt on a big twin HD = major major big $ repair lies ahead for this person and nothing you can do at roadside for em except give em your water jug to drink from while waiting for the meat wagon). I think if I purchased a new one, at first tire swap I would investigate the process of belt replacement and see if it was doable at roadside.. If so,, I would probably invest in a spare belt as we enjoy back roading/two tracking and even some single tracking as part of our CTFW fun and I wouldnt want to risk getting caught in the middle of nowhere with no option... If I were gonna stay straight up pavement touring,,,,, maybe I would skip the spare and just grab a ride on the back of another riders scoot who also lives The Code to grab a new belt if something happened... BACK UP CAMERA?? Parking guides for backing up?? Honda's new Wing has a DCT Tranny and its selling like HOT CAKES?????? I KNOW I am a backwards thinkin,, odd ball old school dork of a "two wheels and a motor = a motorcycle" lop eared varmint but,,,,, somebody please the boy (me) - I think I am loosing it here:sick:

Looking GREAT there Yoop = congrats on finally gettin a chance to put a few miles on your new baby and to all of us here in Michigan - both Yooopers and Trolls on finally catching Fool asleep at the Wisconsin Whiter Washer controls:thumbsup:!!! Your mentioning getting ready to adjust your handlebars brought a to my face and put an urgent possible warning upon my lips... My brother out in California ( @VentureFar ) who is also a member here, did a quick adjust on one of the new ones and learned the hard way how easy it is to have an ahhhh ohhhh moment... I cant remember which bike it was on (he was testing both of them as a Moto Journalist) but I do know (because he told me so) that extreme carefulness needed to be applied when adjusting the bars.. Lets see if he responds here before you loosen up the bars and maybe would share some "what to do/not to do" wisdom herein..... Sounds/looks like you are headed into a GREAT CTFW season Yoop!!! CONGRATS!! Keep an eye on the Water Hole for an upcoming Hot Dog outing down below... If you see the letters "MGnEM" herein,, being from Michigan with a new bike = a short trip for all you can eat 1/4 pound Hot Dogs is a must do!!! Matter of fact,, if your interested in doing such a thing,,, let me know and I will talk to my staff and see if we cant set something up in the Northern Southern part of Michigan Puc

Good on ya TY!!! About 90 bucks on the front springs: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-Venture-1983-1988-Suspension-Fork-Spring-Kit-by-Progressive/231921044430?hash=item35ff924bce:g:2noAAOSw8aNXGRox WORTH EVERY DIME IMHO!! Give that pappy of yours a big ol biker bear hug from me next time ya see em!!! Puc

:sign Rock On::sign Rock On: Got em on a relay = Right?

Why are Murphies foot prints shaped like little carbon tracks on the sides of Tweeks spark plug caps, and why didnt Murph go on vacation with Frosty??

A that point Y NOT,, why not just call you Y,,,,, Y NOT??

You betcha my friend,, any time!! Enjoy!!!

Here ya go Joe: The text copy/paste: """ My 2012 Wing had nearly $3,000 worth of Traxxion Dynamics suspension upgrades on it, and this new bike still handles better in stock form, and that is saying something because I had that bike about as dialed in as a Gold Wing could be. The only room for improvement I can see would be to allow the electronic damping adjustments for the shocks to be set independently from the selected ride-by-wire throttle mode.""" That came entirely from the report written and submitted to the following online Magazine by the author after the test session at Austin - the link to the full article is found here (very well done IMHO,,, good read!! - also,, scroll down in the report and notice the picture of the author and his wife "airborn" while testing out the new bikes suspension!!): http://wingstuff.com/blog_detail/66013_2018_gold_wing_first_ride_review_by_fred_harmon And here is a short video clip taken in Austin of the same person (go to 1:12 in the vid to see some air!!): And then,, after purchasing one of the new bikes exactly like the one he and his wife had "demoed" down at Austin, the same person responded to this posting about the suspension on the new Wing: """The most evident thing about the new suspension is that it's wildly undersprung and underdamped. Without giving out exact numbers, the bike will readily sag more than 50% of the way through it's travel, with a light rider, solo, with no gear, and no accessories. The rear is really really bad. It bottoms and then bucks over bumps even one up. Heavy riders going two-up will just ride it around bottomed out like a truck full of bricks all day. The co-riders are going to hate the ride quality.""" With this comment: ""The rear shock could definitely use some help. I've noticed the rearwheel coming off the ground on bumps, and at higher speeds the rear end doesn't feel planted at all. I can't quite put my finger on the cause, I tried putting it in Sport Mode this afternoon, and it seemed like it helped a little, but the rear end just feels like it's wanting to bounce right off the pavement at times. I can't decide if its a damping problem (too much compression damping?) or a spring rate issue."" All found in this thread at this site (there are many others dealing with the same issue but this will get you started): http://gl1800riders.com/forums/170-traxxion-dynamics/398273-slop-new-steering-system-first-suspension-impression.html That same original author later produced this video showing exactly how not quite correct his initial,, short ride assessment actually was: And then this one after he had the suspension on his new Wing updated and he did a side by side comparison between the new "stock" Wing and the new updated Wing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=304XZkoZxlU IMHO,, the above is a good example of why it may be prudent to not just do diligent online research and task those you trust for their opinions but also may be a good reason to follow thru with significant test riding (may be even to the extent of renting one and actually spending some time out CTFW) before taking the plunge... On the same token though,,, many people - both experienced and those new to the sport - go out and purchase "site unseen" brand new bikes with absolutely no real thought about it other than they have a hunch its gonna fill their needs and, generally speaking the bikes probably do exactly what the owner had hoped for....