Has Yamaha given up?

[bpate4home]

4 hours ago, circa1968 said:

We're pretty savvy here in Cali.  Give us a problem and we'll find a solution!

 

LOL. Someone took my Predator 4000 from Harbor Freight.  But now since you won't be able to buy gas in CA you need to install a tri-fuel kit and start carrying propane with you along with the generator. 

[XV1100SE]

8 hours ago, circa1968 said:

Interestingly enough, BMW has come out with a new large cruiser-style touring bike, the R18 Transcontinental:  https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/models/heritage/r18-transcontinental.html 

BMW must have been listening to Puc.  Nice looking and well equipped bike !  And starting at $24k ?  Wow.

[Freebird]

I admit that is an impressive bike.  I still have to wonder about the choice of engines though.  It's still an air cooled twin cylinder engine.  I've never owned a BMW.  Do they get hot like the VTwins do?  Do BMW make a bike with a water cooled engine?  The price is impressive as well but to add the equipment that at least some of us would want, cruise control, reverse, etc., It would be in the $30,000 range.  Still not bad as compared to similar bikes.  I also worry about maintenance costs.  I've heard nightmares about BMW maintenance.  

[XV1100SE]

Doesn't have much in the way of lower leg protection...other than legs being behind the cylinders.

Nice that it has LED lighting, high output, shaft drive....not sure about the big screen (how costly to update the onboard maps?).  And also noted the oil/air cooled.

 

[BadCatClassics]

On 9/8/2022 at 9:27 AM, XV1100SE said:

Puc - almost 100% agree with your list of what the 3rd gen shoulda been.  Shoulda coulda.  Yamaha blew it and had they listened to us, at a reasonable price (somewhere between what a 2013 RSV cost and a HD) they would have taken Honda Goldwing and HD tourer sales away .... as well as BMW, Kawasaki....
 

Whatever group Yamaha said they listened to were the wrong people.  Maybe a division at Yamaha wanted to cheap out and jump into an overcrowded v-twin market.  Mind you, Yamaha marketing seems to be like what IBM marketing used to be.  Produce a great product but not tell anyone about it.  Someone at the time said that Yamaha monitored VR.org ... obviously not.

 

On Puc's list....only thing I would change would be heel/toe shifter with floorboards.  Heel/toe shifter has spoiled me and I wouldn't want to go backwards to just a toe shifter.  With heel/toe you don't have to worry about how tall the toe is on your riding boots.

I think Puc's list was too long and scared Mom Yam's into a v-twin coma. V-4/125 hp, fuel injection, air ride, shaft drive and cruise control with the updated styling of latest one, only 100 pounds lighter...

[BratmanXj]

2 hours ago, Freebird said:

I admit that is an impressive bike.  I still have to wonder about the choice of engines though.  It's still an air cooled twin cylinder engine.  I've never owned a BMW.  Do they get hot like the VTwins do?  Do BMW make a bike with a water cooled engine?  The price is impressive as well but to add the equipment that at least some of us would want, cruise control, reverse, etc., It would be in the $30,000 range.  Still not bad as compared to similar bikes.  I also worry about maintenance costs.  I've heard nightmares about BMW maintenance.  

I have a Ural 750 flat twin (like an old /2 BMW) and while it runs hot there is no discomfort to the rider like a V-twin.  All my Vs have cooked my inner leg since the rear cylinder doesn't get much airflow under the tank or seat.  The Flat engine is hanging out in the breeze so both cylinders run about the same temps.  Any hot air raising off them at a stop is out front of my knees and most of the airflow at speed is going around or under my boots.  The Oil Head flat twin engines are fairly easy to maintain; BMW maintenance horror stories are more related to Tupperware access, the sportier engines, and paralever rear ends.  The latest GS incarnation has a water cooled flat twin.

I like the looks of that 1800 BMW, but I'm 6'2" and as noted, you have NOWHERE else to go with you feet other than behind the cylinders or way up high over them.  I've sat on the bike, its pretty comfy, but I'd probably need to adjust the legs at some point.    I guess that's the trade-off for such a low center of gravity.  

[circa1968]

I don't have any experience with BMW bikes, other than one test ride I did back in the 90's.  I think it was a 1200 boxer, but don't remember the exact model.  The back-forth vibration was just weird to me and it was a very short test ride as a result.  But I have known and met many BMW boxer engine riders who love them.  I just thought it was interesting that they saw a market for the big touring bike & developed one.

I know there was a recent discussion on Indian/Polaris and some history there (which I was unaware - thanks), but man, that Pursuit is looking like one darn sweet bike.  I starting thinking about the Challenger a couple years ago when I saw that you could add a trunk.  The Pursuit is built off the Challenger, but with some new features.  Pricey for sure, but other than it having a Yamaha V4 engine, it checks all my boxes.  Of course, that's on paper and I have yet to even see one in person, much less ride it.   Its kinda like wanting to ask out that pretty girl, but then what if she says no... haha  Girls & motorcycle, so many parallels...

[Freebird]

I assume you meant NOT having a V4 engine. 

[RDawson]

7 minutes ago, circa1968 said:

Its kinda like wanting to ask out that pretty girl, but then what if she says no... haha  Girls & motorcycle, so many parallels...

If I only had the $$$ Back both have cost me. 💰💰💰💰💰

[AGrengs]

42 minutes ago, circa1968 said:

I don't have any experience with BMW bikes, other than one test ride I did back in the 90's.  I think it was a 1200 boxer, but don't remember the exact model.  The back-forth vibration was just weird to me and it was a very short test ride as a result.  But I have known and met many BMW boxer engine riders who love them.  I just thought it was interesting that they saw a market for the big touring bike & developed one.

I know there was a recent discussion on Indian/Polaris and some history there (which I was unaware - thanks), but man, that Pursuit is looking like one darn sweet bike.  I starting thinking about the Challenger a couple years ago when I saw that you could add a trunk.  The Pursuit is built off the Challenger, but with some new features.  Pricey for sure, but other than it having a Yamaha V4 engine, it checks all my boxes.  Of course, that's on paper and I have yet to even see one in person, much less ride it.   Its kinda like wanting to ask out that pretty girl, but then what if she says no... haha  Girls & motorcycle, so many parallels...

I recently test rode both pursuit and challenger models.  I was really impressed, the power was effortless and the ride really solid through curves.  I think they handled better than my RSV and would run away from it.  they sit lower to the ground and I'm kinda tall, so that's the one thing I like better about my Venture.  I bought a lottery ticket on the way home from test rides, that's the only way I could afford a 35K motorcycle.

[circa1968]

1 hour ago, Freebird said:

I assume you meant NOT having a V4 engine. 

Yep

[circa1968]

37 minutes ago, AGrengs said:

I recently test rode both pursuit and challenger models.  I was really impressed, the power was effortless and the ride really solid through curves.  I think they handled better than my RSV and would run away from it.  they sit lower to the ground and I'm kinda tall, so that's the one thing I like better about my Venture.  I bought a lottery ticket on the way home from test rides, that's the only way I could afford a 35K motorcycle.

I just bought two tickets the other day, gives me double the chance with the pretty girls and a 35k moto.  Of course, 2 x 0 still equals zero...

[saddlebum]

On 9/6/2022 at 10:59 AM, Freebird said:

I agree but actually think it would have been easier to meet admissions standards with a water cooled V4. 

I have heard that Honda is continuing only their DCT (automatic) version of the Wing because they can more easily control the emissions on it than the manual. 
 

Water cooled is a big part in controlling emission's since cylinder temp hence exhaust temps can be more readily controlled. If exhaust temps are too high you create NOX (nitrous oxide) emissions and if they are too low you create particulate matter (soot and carbon) emissions. This is were automatics (though many of us prefer standards) come in, by controlling shift points, you add another means of controlling  exact fuel ratio and exhaust temps, as well as fuel economy. 

[cowpuc]

On 9/9/2022 at 11:24 AM, BratmanXj said:

I have a Ural 750 flat twin (like an old /2 BMW) and while it runs hot there is no discomfort to the rider like a V-twin.  All my Vs have cooked my inner leg since the rear cylinder doesn't get much airflow under the tank or seat.  The Flat engine is hanging out in the breeze so both cylinders run about the same temps.  Any hot air raising off them at a stop is out front of my knees and most of the airflow at speed is going around or under my boots.  The Oil Head flat twin engines are fairly easy to maintain; BMW maintenance horror stories are more related to Tupperware access, the sportier engines, and paralever rear ends.  The latest GS incarnation has a water cooled flat twin.

I like the looks of that 1800 BMW, but I'm 6'2" and as noted, you have NOWHERE else to go with you feet other than behind the cylinders or way up high over them.  I've sat on the bike, its pretty comfy, but I'd probably need to adjust the legs at some point.    I guess that's the trade-off for such a low center of gravity.  

 

 

On 9/9/2022 at 8:39 AM, Freebird said:

I admit that is an impressive bike.  I still have to wonder about the choice of engines though.  It's still an air cooled twin cylinder engine.  I've never owned a BMW.  Do they get hot like the VTwins do?  Do BMW make a bike with a water cooled engine?  The price is impressive as well but to add the equipment that at least some of us would want, cruise control, reverse, etc., It would be in the $30,000 range.  Still not bad as compared to similar bikes.  I also worry about maintenance costs.  I've heard nightmares about BMW maintenance.  

The issue is that the larger in cubic inch you go the more heat is produced.  I rode my 78 shovel head all over the country and spent a TON of time on it exploring the desert. While it did get warm, its 74 inch V-twin shedded heat NOTHING like these big V-Twins of today do. I got a hunch that the 1800cc air cooled beemer will be one hot puppy as it cools its jugs/heads on the riders legs, wayyy more than the 750cc flat twins did. I also see a LOT of potential damage happening there when someone drops one. 

[Freebird]

Agree.  My 98 cu Harley was quite a lot cooler than the 107 that I had. 

[cowpuc]

On 9/9/2022 at 11:11 AM, BadCatClassics said:

I think Puc's list was too long and scared Mom Yam's into a v-twin coma. V-4/125 hp, fuel injection, air ride, shaft drive and cruise control with the updated styling of latest one, only 100 pounds lighter...

Mom Yam did read my list and followed it pretty well.. She just did the opposite of what I, and many other members suggested LOL.. check this out:

1700cc V-4 "V-Max" motor.. Detune it if you must (just like before) but please,, dont do another V-Twin - got enough of em.. You guys can do it,, I KNOW YOU CAN!! but everyone knows the modern rider wants the pleasure of no hp, good vibes and feeling the burn as they ride.. get with it man! 

Shaft drive! BELT's wear out and we can make a few bucks for replacements, we are in the business to make money on part sales..

EFI with a tunable tuner - even if its an add on - please provide one so we can tune it!! no chance

Engine guarding. but then the rider who LOVES heat couldn't get it what he loves.

Adjustable bars like on the first gen. no no no,, those adjustable bars on the MK1/2's were a big mistake. we actually lost money on the loss of handle bar sales for that mistake.

Fixed Fairing. here ya go Puc,, just for you!! THAT IS ONE COOL FRONT END FOLKS!! Imagine those intakes on the front feeding a 175 hp COMPETITION DESTROYER!! good night that woulda been AWESOME!

Get the same Doctors who advised you on constructing the seat of the 1st Gens (cant remember what you call those guys) to advise you on this one - my kids, wife and I LOVE what they did!! Keep the seat height difference between the rider and passenger no more than 3 inches (2 is great) - raising the passenger higher causes weight imbalance and makes slow speed riding harder. how bout we make this one a 1000 pounder instead

Ease of removal of the trunk(s) for changing rear tire. we are suppose to make it HARDER for you to work on it, not easier..

Center stand. what,, that is wayyy to old school for the modern rider.

Forward boards with normal foot pegs located rearward so standing up while riding is still possible, shift and brake levers at both locations (no heal toe please). the modern day rider has no interest in learning how easy it is to handle a bike because  their standing up.

Grease zerks on all main pivot points. Puc is crazy, no one wants to lay down and grease/pull maintenance anymore.

Explore which tire sizes are the most common and build around those standards so tire choices and finding them are easy. This was a real good one! One that I actually spoke with the Yam reps at Sturgis about when I noticed the odd size rear tire on the back of the new Venture. I asked why Mom Yam did not stick with a more traditional tire size, something that would give the rider more choices in tires, not less.. They just shrugged me off. I did have that same Rep look up the price and choices of current tires at that time for the tire size Mom Yam had chosen. There was only ONE tire available at the time and that tire was listed at over $500!!! Honestly,, the rear wheel itself was CHEAPER than the tire! Made my point in asking for this in my wish list.. 

Enclose the motor well to keep ANY objectional heat off both riders BUT - use lots of venting with plenums to act as heaters when needed. what,, dont you know,,, modern cross country touring riders would rather look good showing off the motors while being burned than being comfortable while riding or stuck in traffic. 

[BlueSky]

I think you nailed it Puc.

[Heimdog]

The National Star Riding & Touring group has folded.  I hear that the National Gold Wingers group has folded.  According to a guy I ride with who owns a local Yamaha dealership there are no "big bikes" in the pipeline.  No cruisers or Tourers being made or distributed.  Another riding partner of mine goes to Sturgis often.  He also rides a Yamaha.  This year he said without a doubt the dominant bikes were HD and Indian.  Pretty much had to really search for a metric bike.  Looks like the touring future is HD and Indian (and $$$).  I've nothing against either other than the price.  I'll take a few year old $8,000 metric touring bike over a few year old $18,000 Harley and day of the week.  

[N3FOL]

I have a feeling Yamaha, Honda and Kawasaki are just taking a few years of hiatus in terms of manufacturing large touring bikes.  Large Jap bikes will come back no matter what, because I see that there is always a market for it.  I know for now, we don't see much that is why I am holding on to my '07 and '18.  These bikes continue to put a smile on my face.  

[saddlebum]

I think a big part of the issue is trying to copy what seems popular. The trouble is you can never copy Harley because its not just competing with the bike. The Harley brand is almost like a cult your not just competing with the bike but your competing with a persona and a Logo. To prove my point how many pick ups put out a Harley edition just to appeal to that following? How many people buy Harley paraphernalia that have never nor will ever park their butt on a bike of any description? How often has someone admired your bike just to follow up with " I have a friend who owns a big Harley " ?

You need to build a bike that stands on its own merit with reliability performance functionality. but at the same time it should not look to spacey. The 1st Gen venture, The gold wings and the BMW touring bikes were such ground breaking  bikes. But even then the name Harley carries simply because of its following among both bikers and non bikers.

Edited September 22, 2022 by saddlebum

[videoarizona]

Agreed. Trying to copy HD is/was a ridiculous waste of time. The Star rider idiots that influenced Yamaha to design the Star Venture should have been taken out and hung. Seriously angers me.... It's obvious they had no clue....

(I could feel @cowpuc's disappointment when he saw the Star Venture for the first time. We were on the phone when the bike rolled onto the stage. Such a huge letdown for us.)

To continue:

There are rumors of a liquid cooled V4 touring scoot behind introduced this coming year by another company with a +$30k price tag. I'm waiting to see more and will share if it comes to be!

Yamaha had also dropped the ball on street cruisers. The VStar 950 Tourer and VStar 1300 Tourer we're excellent bikes. Handling, performance, reliability and the huge fun factor were what made those cruisers so good on the road. My biggest mistake with a motorcycle was selling my VStar 950 Tourer.  Look at all the 900cc cruisers out there now! It seems everyone has one except Yamaha. Perfect for just about any type of riding except dirt. I guess you could call the Yamaha Niken a mid level cruiser, but you won't find one at a dealer... So what good is it?

Regardless,

Hopefully Yamaha learned their lesson with the Star Venture. Great bike in so many ways but not really a Yamaha..... Just another copycat trying to survive in an HD world. 

I'm sure Yamaha will get back into the touring business in a few more years. And if they build it "their way", it will be a seller.

But it will be too late for me to enjoy.... I'm nearing the end of my run on 2 wheels. Been a great ride since 1965. Maybe another year to go. We shall see... 

And yes, if the Star Venture had been what we were hoping...I would have bought one right then there...

David

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by videoarizona
Sp

[circa1968]

3 hours ago, videoarizona said:

There are rumors of a liquid cooled V4 touring scoot behind introduced this coming year by another company with a +$30k price tag. I'm waiting to see more and will share if it comes to be!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is Motus coming back to life??? 

 

[Freebird]

I've seen no article about them coming back.  Interesting bike but not my style.