Interesting starter Problem

[Braun]

Hello Guys and or Gals, Just about a month ago I bought a 1993 Venture Royal XVZ13DEC. I rode it home but there were serious issues with the starter and the fuel pump didn't function. I replaced both but the starter will not turn the engine over with the spark plugs installed. Pulled them out and it spins fine. Tested it on the bench and it functions fine. I even went through all the safety switches and relays, they're all ok. I can turn the engine over past the compression stroke with a socket, (plenty there) I jumped the starter direct bypassing all the safety cutout switches it just tries to turn it over until it hits compression, then it just whines. I don't let it sit like that long as I will cook the new starter. Do I need to go to an asymmetrically brushed starter? the one that came off the bike is symmetrically brushed (brushes + and - are 180 degrees X 4 and the new one I just purchased from ebay. I would appreciate any feed back any of you have dealing with this annoyance< thank you for your help.

Respectfully;

Braun.

[cowpuc]

Hi Braun and welcome to VR. Here are some questions to pick away at that may (or may not) be of assistance to the club MK2 guru's who hopefully will be here shortly to assist you..

1. What type of "serious issues with the starter" did you have on your ride home = please expound in detail? Is the starter you got from Ebay a new OEM Yamaha starter?  How did you ride it home with no fuel pump? Did the volt gauge on the dash show the charging system functioning properly? Do you have a clamp on Amp Probe you could test amp draw on the starter lead?  Hows the battery? is it new and/or been load tested? is it fully charged? if its older and lead/acid how is its water level? did you try boosting the battery at start up with a jumper box or jumping off a car battery? How are the cable ends of the battery and connections at the starter solenoid? 

2. were you getting any over flow of carbs when riding it home? have you checked your oil level for fuel contamination? what does the oil level in the sight glass read at this time when standing the bike upright? Did you spin it up fast enough with the plugs out to know if there may be raw fuel in the jugs?

3. what plugs are in the bike? are they NGK DPR8EA-9 and are the fire rings on all the plugs? Do you have a compression tester/gauge? Did you test each jug with the comp tester with the plugs out and tester in one pot?  Is there any chance you have a engine endoscope that you could look in the pots and see how much carbon has built up internally?

Stick around and this gang of lop eared VR MK2 guru varmints will help you get er figured out I betcha..

   Puc

[Braun]

Hello Cowpuc, and thank you for your reply, the biggest issue with the starter on the way home was #1. an old (no date on it) AGM battery, I'm waiting for the OEM battery to arrive from battery shark. the starter momentary switch has been replaced with flip switch. #2. the starter relay was tired but semi functional. I pulled the starter out and it was fried, plus the armature was dragging on the permanent magnets in the housing. I ordered on from ebay for 109 bucks, in hind sight I should have sprung for the 225 dollar model. Internally the new starter looks identical to the one that was on the bike (both are 4 brush models). I cleaned all the connections Positive and ground in the circuit with emery paper. I ran a jumper ground from the upper bolt on the starter behind the thermostat housing over to the ground connection on the block. I even used the old starter spline and front housing to check if the starter clutch was working correctly. I them wound a piece of para cord around the armature and was able to spin the engine over with a two handed pull. I did a voltage drop test but don't remember what the readings were, when I get the new battery I'll do another one and write it down this time. I'll finish this tomorrow this computer is burning my old eyes.  I ordered a new starter from D B Electrical that should be here in a couple days or so. It should work I looked at the rebuild kit and it has asymmetrical brushes which gives much better torque over a symmetrically configured brush placement.

The fuel pump: I got the bike started using the fuel bypass / choke and then I found the sweet spot to keep it running. Obviously the engine has a strong enough vacuum to suck the fuel up to the Carbs. It ran pretty well for the 6 miles home considering the non functioning fuel pump. But it died as I rolled into the driveway, so I had the fun of duck walking the heavy old girl the last 50 feet. I charged the battery and got it started again to move it out of the way so I could tear into it. I replaced the fuel pump and starter, Removed all the plastic and spent two days welding all the cracks and fabricating new tabs and welded them on the panels. Waiting for parts to arrive from ebay has taken longer than the actual work to replace them.

The Carbs are ok for now and I have a complete rebuild kit, and a minor rebuild kit, for them if needed.  They aren't puking fuel so the floats are working fine. During the ride home the bike didn't want to idle unless the choke / fuel bypass was in the sweet spot, I closed it after I was running and it died at the intersection and had to jump it off. It also ran out of fuel and had to dump a couple gallong in it, but the vacuum was strong enough to pick it up and I rode it the rest of the way home. The oil level is at the 3/4 level on the sight glass when sitting level.

The bike was originally owned by a lady in Washington state, who sold it to a guy who dumped it on the right side. Judging by the scratches it probably happened at around 10 to 15 miles per hour. The left engine guard was tweeked and somebody didn't install the spacers on the lower mounting points. The first guy sold it to the second guy who dropped it on the right side, that only cracked more plastic because the bike wasn't moving. I bought it from him for 500 bucks because he couldn't figure it out. He did tell me "I learned allot". As a side note the frame is straight I checked that closely.

I haven't put a compression guage on the jugs yet But will when I buy one, I bought new NKG DPR8EA-9 plugs and replaced the autolite's they had in there.

I have two bikes in the Philippines a 2004 Honda wave 125 which is perfect for around town in the heavy traffic there. It sucks on a long ride though. I also have a a 1993 Yamaha 250 inline twin classic I was rebuilding before I left. My visa got jacked up during the "Plandemic". I bought the Venture because it will be much easier on gas when it hits 10 bucks a gallon which I believe it will, and it won't be too bad a ride in the rain with good rain gear. 30 years ago I had a GS 1100 GL that I rode in the snow and ice, but I don't think I would like picking this bike up on a slippery surface. I apologize for the long winded reply and thank you and the rest of the folks for any advice you offer as this is my first Venture Royal experience.

 

[Marcarl]

I would do a real close check on the battery cables, making sure that they are super clean and tight, not only the clamps on the battery, but also the clamps to the cables. Then I would clean the other ends of the cables making sure they are tight as well. If you are doubtful of the solenoid I would suggest replacing that as well and then check out the operation of the start switch by doing a by-pass. 

As an aside, the engine will not suck fuel out of the tank, the tank is too low for that to happen, so your fuel pump must have been working to some extent, or you might have plugged filters.

[luvmy40]

They way he described it, the idle jets are clogged and they are probably way out of sync. 

[cowpuc]

On 8/9/2022 at 1:23 PM, Braun said:

Hello Cowpuc, and thank you for your reply, the biggest issue with the starter on the way home was #1. an old (no date on it) AGM battery, I'm waiting for the OEM battery to arrive from battery shark. the starter momentary switch has been replaced with flip switch. #2. the starter relay was tired but semi functional. I pulled the starter out and it was fried, plus the armature was dragging on the permanent magnets in the housing. I ordered on from ebay for 109 bucks, in hind sight I should have sprung for the 225 dollar model. Internally the new starter looks identical to the one that was on the bike (both are 4 brush models). I cleaned all the connections Positive and ground in the circuit with emery paper. I ran a jumper ground from the upper bolt on the starter behind the thermostat housing over to the ground connection on the block. I even used the old starter spline and front housing to check if the starter clutch was working correctly. I them wound a piece of para cord around the armature and was able to spin the engine over with a two handed pull. I did a voltage drop test but don't remember what the readings were, when I get the new battery I'll do another one and write it down this time. I'll finish this tomorrow this computer is burning my old eyes.  I ordered a new starter from D B Electrical that should be here in a couple days or so. It should work I looked at the rebuild kit and it has asymmetrical brushes which gives much better torque over a symmetrically configured brush placement.

The fuel pump: I got the bike started using the fuel bypass / choke and then I found the sweet spot to keep it running. Obviously the engine has a strong enough vacuum to suck the fuel up to the Carbs. It ran pretty well for the 6 miles home considering the non functioning fuel pump. But it died as I rolled into the driveway, so I had the fun of duck walking the heavy old girl the last 50 feet. I charged the battery and got it started again to move it out of the way so I could tear into it. I replaced the fuel pump and starter, Removed all the plastic and spent two days welding all the cracks and fabricating new tabs and welded them on the panels. Waiting for parts to arrive from ebay has taken longer than the actual work to replace them.

The Carbs are ok for now and I have a complete rebuild kit, and a minor rebuild kit, for them if needed.  They aren't puking fuel so the floats are working fine. During the ride home the bike didn't want to idle unless the choke / fuel bypass was in the sweet spot, I closed it after I was running and it died at the intersection and had to jump it off. It also ran out of fuel and had to dump a couple gallong in it, but the vacuum was strong enough to pick it up and I rode it the rest of the way home. The oil level is at the 3/4 level on the sight glass when sitting level.

The bike was originally owned by a lady in Washington state, who sold it to a guy who dumped it on the right side. Judging by the scratches it probably happened at around 10 to 15 miles per hour. The left engine guard was tweeked and somebody didn't install the spacers on the lower mounting points. The first guy sold it to the second guy who dropped it on the right side, that only cracked more plastic because the bike wasn't moving. I bought it from him for 500 bucks because he couldn't figure it out. He did tell me "I learned allot". As a side note the frame is straight I checked that closely.

I haven't put a compression guage on the jugs yet But will when I buy one, I bought new NKG DPR8EA-9 plugs and replaced the autolite's they had in there.

I have two bikes in the Philippines a 2004 Honda wave 125 which is perfect for around town in the heavy traffic there. It sucks on a long ride though. I also have a a 1993 Yamaha 250 inline twin classic I was rebuilding before I left. My visa got jacked up during the "Plandemic". I bought the Venture because it will be much easier on gas when it hits 10 bucks a gallon which I believe it will, and it won't be too bad a ride in the rain with good rain gear. 30 years ago I had a GS 1100 GL that I rode in the snow and ice, but I don't think I would like picking this bike up on a slippery surface. I apologize for the long winded reply and thank you and the rest of the folks for any advice you offer as this is my first Venture Royal experience.

 

My gut tells me you are going to be a very happy Venture Rider when the proper starter gets in and the new battery my friend. PLEASE keep us updated as you proceed when that happens! By the way @Braun, you are more than welcome, anytime! Puc

Edited August 10, 2022 by cowpuc

[Braun]

Thank you all of you guys who have shared your thoughts and experience / expertise with the Venture. I tend to be a perfectionist by nature so I will leave no stoned un-turned figuring this bike out. My Grandpa always told me if you don't have time to repair it correctly the first time, where will you find time to fix what you over looked or were to busy to deal with. From personal experience I would rather repair it where I have tools and parts than out alongside the road. I will undoubtedly be asking more questions as this project moves forward. Thank you all again.

Braun.

[Braun]

Side Bar; I did buy a set of vacuum guages to sync the carbs later. I need to hook all 4 to a common vacuum source so I can caiibrate them to all read the same first. I also replaced the gaskets on the valve covers that were puking oil. The last guy used red silicone instead of grey, so I'm in the process of changing all the gaskets. I also bought a complete set of Stainless socket head bolts for the engine. Some of the mild steel bolts I've come across were a real bear to get out without making a mess of things. But carefully welding a nut on them and gently heating the aluminum with a propane torch while tapping on the bolt with a small hammer worked. The biggest thing this poor old girl needs, is some TLC by somebody that cares. I'll send some pictures when I get them loaded into the computer. Anyway thanks again Guys. 

Braun.

[Marcarl]

We're still here and don't plan to go away anytime soon, so more discussion can be had.

[Braun]

Hello Marcarl, The new problem. My starter spins great with the plugs moved. Install any one of the four plugs and the starter hits the compression stroke and stops I fried one brand new starter doing a compression check. all 4 Cylinders are between 140 and 150. Whats puzzling is it was running before the first starter fried (bearing and bushing died and grounded the armature against the stator magnets. I put a 32 mm socket on the flywheel and turned the engine over with a 10 inch ratchet. On each cylinder you needed to put some muscle behind it to pop it over. If you or any of the other guys have any insight to this puzzle please let me know, this is my first experience with the V4 and it's been and interesting education thus far. Thank you all again for your help and patience.

Respectfully, Braun. 

[Braun]

OK problem solved, I gave her a shot of joy juice (either) and now it spins fine with the plugs installed, it even fired for a bit. I need to pull the carbs again and go through them 100 % this time. I did a hap hazard job the last time. Cutting corners will bite you every time LOL. Thanks again guys.

Respectfully Braun.