Nitrogen in Tires

[Freebird]

When I picked up my new truck a few days ago, they tried selling me all kinds of protection packages.  I never buy that stuff and refused them all.  One thing that they really pushed hard was nitrogen filled tires.  I wasn't interested and the price was crazy.  They spent way to long trying to convince me but I just said no.  Then they confessed that they had already filled the tires with nitrogen so they would just let me have it for free.

I don't care.  I wasn't going to pay for it but saw no reason to have them remove it.  I'll just use air as I typically do.  Not going to pay to top my tires off with nitrogen.  Over time, any air added will negate the fact that they were filled with nitrogen but certainly doesn't hurt anything.

Just wondering what your thoughts are.   Not that it's going to change my mind.  

[RDawson]

Supposed to leak thru at a slower rate and more stable, I could see it in race cars but really see no reason on the road. I’m betting you can check the pressures from the driver seat anyway. My truck even sends a text if one gets low, no excuse for driving on low tires. 
I did get the ceramic coating on mine aftermarket, I hate waxing. Thinking of doing the bike next. 

[BlueSky]

Well, air is about 78% nitrogen.  And when a tire is originally filled there is a certain amount of air in the tire already so it's impossible to have pure nitrogen in the tire.  Soo, it's just a way to get a few more bucks out of you.  They say things like it reduces corrosion of the rim inside.  I used to change my own tires long ago and the steel rims inside looked new so there's no corrosion going on.  Nascar uses nitrogen bottles for their tires but I think they can more easily control the pressure with nitrogen bottles and nitrogen doesn't contribute to a fire. Just guessing on their reasons.    I never pay extra for it.  One thing I do think about though is if you use those gas station air compressors that do not have a tank there will be a little water in the air.  A compressor with a tank collects the water in the bottom of the tank and the air going to the tire has no liquid water in it because the tire pressure is lower than the tank pressure and the air going to the tire is not saturated and the water will not condense out of the air.

Edited July 24, 2022 by BlueSky

[vzuden]

I managed dealership service depts for 25/years.  It’s a money maker for them and has no positive impact for passenger cars and trucks

[Papa Fred]

I owned and drove 5 different semis over nearly 25 years.  I let the tire shop fill all 10 tires on one of my Large Cars with Nitrogen, wanting to see for myself their claimed decrease in pressure loss and cooler running temps.  I had no way to verify the temperature claim, but I didn't notice any difference in pressure drops.  I checked truck and trailer every morning before hitting the road, usually with a gauge, and hammer checked them several times during the day whenever I stopped.  If a tire was over 5 lbs low I got out my 50 foot air line, and truck compressors don't pump nitrogen. 

When you drop over 4 grand for tires, you pay attention to air pressure.  Just sayin'....🙂

[uncledj]

I believe the nitrogen doesn't increase or decrease pressure as much as air.   Just so happens that I always have some nitrogen around for work, so I do at least fill the motorcycle tires with nitro....it's free, and quicker than a compressor.

[RDawson]

27 minutes ago, uncledj said:

Just so happens that I always have some nitrogen around for work, 

Gee, that almost sounds like you’re working on refrigerant lines or something. 😁

[BlueSky]

Nitrogen will expand and contract with temperature the same as oxygen.  It has a lower atomic weight but I don't know if the molecule is smaller or larger than oxygen and if it will leak out less because of the molecule size.  

1 hour ago, RDawson said:

Gee, that almost sounds like you’re working on refrigerant lines or something. 😁

My downstairs Goodman 2 ton split heat pump/air conditioner needs a new evaporator coil.  The company that installed the system 14 years ago quoted $2650 to replace the coil.  Sounded outrageous to me so I've been watching youtube videos on how to replace the coil.  Saw where you are supposed to use Nitrogen to check for leaks.  I think I could do it but it's under the house and at 78, I'm not going to torture myself that much.   Another outfit quoted $2200 and another quoted $1334.  Got the last recommendation from Nextdoor ap and I'm giving him a try.  

[RDawson]

13 minutes ago, BlueSky said:

Nitrogen will expand and contract with temperature the same as oxygen.  It has a lower atomic weight but I don't know if the molecule is smaller or larger than oxygen and if it will leak out less because of the molecule size.  

My downstairs Goodman 2 ton split heat pump/air conditioner needs a new evaporator coil.  The company that installed the system 14 years ago quoted $2650 to replace the coil.  Sounded outrageous to me so I've been watching youtube videos on how to replace the coil.  Saw where you are supposed to use Nitrogen to check for leaks.  I think I could do it but it's under the house and at 78, I'm not going to torture myself that much.   Another outfit quoted $2200 and another quoted $1334.  Got the last recommendation from Nextdoor ap and I'm giving him a try.  

I got out of HVAC 20 years ago and was messing with @uncledj since he’s still in it. We purged the lines with nitrogen when soldering to stop oxidation. 
The EPA and government got involved in trying to up the efficiency and drove the prices out of sight. Back when I started we could put the two ton in duct and all for around $2400. 

[Pasta Burner]

I run nitrogen in a few of my cars, comes with the tire purchase at Costco.  Can’t say I’ve noticed a difference one way or another.  We use nitrogen at work because it’s pure clean and dry, also use it to purge fuzes.  The government just installed a nitrogen generator in our lab which is pretty nice.

[uncledj]

 Yep, we use it in the HVAC trade.   We use it to pressurize for leak checks because it's clean and DRY.   We also use it as a purge gas when brazing.   As I think of it, .....if you use it to purge while making a brazed joint, it keeps the inside of the pipe clean and shiny.   Without it there's HEAVY oxidation created while brazing.    That makes me think that, if used to inflate tires it would keep the rim and potentially the tire itself from the effects of oxidation as well.    Just spitballin' here.

[saddlebum]

Nitrogen compresses and decompressed at a constant rate unlike air which compresses and decompresses at unstable rates. This why Nitrogen is used in some shocks. Used in tires it maintains a more consistent pressure unlike air which can increase and decrease in pressure signicantly with temperature fluctuations. It has a larger molecule so it is less inclined to leak and it does not hold moisture like air does therefore reducing wheel rim corrosion. 

Is the benefit significant enough to warrant using it in car tires? Not according to most car manufactures. GM for example in their bulletin on the subject neither recommend nor discourage its use. The only tires it has proven to have significant advantages in are heavy aircraft and race cars.

In passenger cars it's more of a selling feature than anything else.

Edited July 27, 2022 by saddlebum

[BlueSky]

Air pressure will change at the same rate as nitrogen with temperature changes unless it has water in it.  Air from compressors usually has a little water in it, condensed, saturated, or both depending on if the compressor has a tank.  And a nitrogen molecule is lighter than an oxygen molecule.  Check the science.

[ragtop69gs]

Great for race cars, a waste of money on a daily driver.

[Pasta Burner]

@Freebird I forgot to mention earlier that the fact they tried to convince you to pay for a service you didn’t want only to cover their mess up pisses me off.  That’s such shady business practice it would make me want to walk away.

[BlueSky]

Unfortunately, all new car dealers have come up with all kinds of things to charge extra for and it's at its worse right now due to the shortage of cars.  Almost all the dealers around here add a couple thousand to sticker prices for all kinds of "add ons". silicon coatings, stripes, ceramic coating, nitrogen in the tires, running boards, bed liners, plus the documentation fee.  

[saddlebum]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:18 AM, BlueSky said:

Air pressure will change at the same rate as nitrogen with temperature changes unless it has water in it.  Air from compressors usually has a little water in it, condensed, saturated, or both depending on if the compressor has a tank.  And a nitrogen molecule is lighter than an oxygen molecule.  Check the science.

Your right I meant to say Larger molecule  (my bad). Any way here is a clip from one of our service bulletins at work From GM who as I stated earlier neither recommends or discourages nitrogen use in tires.

 

Nitrogen use in on road vehicle tires.

A common explanation: “The larger-sized molecules of this gas compared to atmospheric air means less slow leaks caused by air bleeding out of porous alloy rims.” Nitrogen makes up 78 per cent of the air we breathe, so 100 per cent nitrogen isn’t likely to have much effect in holding tire pressure on old and corroded wheels as suggested within the industry.

It is perceived that it will let tires run cooler, which is why race cars and airplanes use nitrogen.” It’s highly unlikely that a minivan or SUV will have its tires subjected to the extremes that track cars and jets experience, so like less air leaks, this benefit is highly doubtful.

The only benefit of using nitrogen is less pressure variation with temperature changes. Repair shop air compressors, air-lines and air-powered wheel tools are subjected to a lot of moisture contamination. Even the best shops that drain the water from their compressors daily and use water traps on every bay’s air-line can have high water content in their compressed air. When they fill tires, this water goes in with the air, causing increase in air pressure when the tires warm up; the moisture droplets expand, increasing the pressure. When temperatures drop the moisture droplets contract, decreasing pressure. Nitrogen is compressed for transport and shop use under processes that ensure low water content resulting in more consistent pressures.

Edited July 27, 2022 by saddlebum

[N3FOL]

When I got my Taco '21 OR, I got Ceramic coating and rustproofing.  The ceramic coating will be reapplied by the dealer every 5 years, so they said I don't have to worry about waxing.  They did not try to sell me Nitrogen and I don't intend to fill my tires with Nitrogen anyway.  Regular air is perfect for me as well.    

[Freebird]

They wanted 1700 bucks for the ceramic coating.  I said no thank you.  Then he asked what I would pay.  I wasn’t interested. 

[djh3]

WE had to service the aircraft tires with nitrogen per tech data. Reason was because it was "dry" and not as subject to pressure differences. AS Ours were cargo aircraft and potentially be in say Texas in the morning and a few hours later be in Alaska, less difference is best. Racers do use it because it stays more stable and is more predictable on pressure gain thus compression rate while cornering. On a road car, my 2c not worth it. Especially since TPMS came around.

[RDawson]

36 minutes ago, Freebird said:

They wanted 1700 bucks for the ceramic coating.  I said no thank you.  Then he asked what I would pay.  I wasn’t interested. 

I used a local detailer, with a little negotiation he did the interiors and ceramic coated my crew cab and her Cherokee for $1100. My dealer quoted price was similar to yours. 

[BadCatClassics]

N2 works great in an RV, very stable. On another note, I just bought a new truck, and the dealer pre Lojacked it, added tinted front windows and locking wheel lugs. All for the low price of $2000, they say all their trucks get the treatment, I said I ain't paying for the LoJack, don't want it don't need it. They charge me on paper for the add ONS, but they gave up dealer prep on a truck discounted $8k. It is illegal for them to add on and make you pay for options you don't want.

[videoarizona]

Agreed on all above.

Only thing I would caution is using tpms units. They are great for trailers but not really for bikes or cars. By the time the unit alerts you to a low pressure problem, you are already under inflated! On some vehicles, that can be a serious issue. 

Use a gauge and check frequently. Don't be like my better half who relies on her car to tell her when pressures are low. She has a Mazda 6 with very low profile tires. I checked her tire pressures one day and she was way low. Tpms didn't go off! She drives 80mph on the freeway. Zoom, zoom. Not good.

 

[saddlebum]

49 minutes ago, videoarizona said:

Agreed on all above.

Only thing I would caution is using tpms units. They are great for trailers but not really for bikes or cars. By the time the unit alerts you to a low pressure problem, you are already under inflated! On some vehicles, that can be a serious issue. 

Use a gauge and check frequently. Don't be like my better half who relies on her car to tell her when pressures are low. She has a Mazda 6 with very low profile tires. I checked her tire pressures one day and she was way low. Tpms didn't go off! She drives 80mph on the freeway. Zoom, zoom. Not good.

 

So very true. The less volume a tire holds the more detrimental pressure becomes EG: loose 20 psi in a bicycle tire and you are running pretty soft. Loose 20 lbs in a 11r24 transport tire and you don't even notice the difference.

[BlueSky]

My only experience with TPMS is with a 2013 Ford Focus rental car that warned me of a tire being low at 30psig.  And my wife's 2013 Infiniti gave her a warning when one of her tires got down to 30psig.  So, they worked okay in those two instances.  It's hard to check the rear tire on a RSV so a TPMS on that would be convenient for sure. 

I've never had a vehicle with TPMS.  My truck is 20 years old and my car is 17 years old.  And I love my old clunkers!  2002 F150 4x4 and a hemi powered 2005 Dodge Magnum.  

Edited August 5, 2022 by BlueSky