Transmission / Clutch issue??

[Papa Fred]

Greetings, gang.  Although I have been listed as Expired for the past week or so it seems as though I'm still here. (a serious brain-cramp on my part prevented me from getting the membership renewed on time.)

This past Saturday wife & I got home from a 1200 mile adventure.  Good weather, no rain, no wind to speak of, with enough turns and elevation changes to be interesting.  We were pulling our Aluma MCT with a fairly light payload, and all-in with the bike, us and the trailer were probably in the 1200 lb range.  The bike (2000 RSV) did well overall and as expected the VMax diff I put in a cpl of years back made it a bit easier to get going.

Having said all that, the bike had been making a bit more noise this past year..seemed to be from the clutch area...and as this trip progressed the noise was becoming more prominent.  It sounded alike it was clutch related as it would decrease/increase depending on clutch use.  The bike had no issues once underway with respect to accelerating or pulling hills...no slipping.  The bike got us home into the driveway, and in the short time it took to unload and unhook the trailer the clutch gave up being nice.  I tried to back down the drive to take a short solo scoot and couldn't get the bike to roll backwards while in gear with the clutch lever pulled.  When I DID get it onto the street, it sounded like a handful of gravel had been tossed into the clutch / trans.  I put the bike in the garage for the night, not wanting to work on it in the heat.

When I pulled the clutch cover Sunday, there were a few small pieces of something probably important laying in the bottom of the engine case below the clutch basket, along with a chip of yellow-ish plastic.  The icing on this is that the clutch basket moves side to side along with the center shaft.  I found no damage to the friction or steel clutch plates when I removed them, so I suspect there is a bearing behind the clutch basket that is no longer intact.  Several mechanically savvy people have  indicated that the engine has to come out of the bike for the repair...if that is indeed the problem.  Although I have tackled a number of jobs on the bike over the past few years, I have neither the expertise nor the space to attempt that level of work.  If anyone has had a similar issue, I'd be curious to hear what the problem was and, more importantly, the outcome.

Given the overall reputation of rock solid, trouble-free life expectancy, I gotta say this is quite a letdown.  While I get that it's a soon to be 23 year old toy, it hasn't been abused by me or the original owner, and with my mechanic unable to get into it til September-ish,  my riding season just got a whole lot shorter.

Respectfully submitted ( with a small amount of *@$*!!)..

Fred

[cowpuc]

41 minutes ago, Papa Fred said:

Greetings, gang.  Although I have been listed as Expired for the past week or so it seems as though I'm still here. (a serious brain-cramp on my part prevented me from getting the membership renewed on time.)

This past Saturday wife & I got home from a 1200 mile adventure.  Good weather, no rain, no wind to speak of, with enough turns and elevation changes to be interesting.  We were pulling our Aluma MCT with a fairly light payload, and all-in with the bike, us and the trailer were probably in the 1200 lb range.  The bike (2000 RSV) did well overall and as expected the VMax diff I put in a cpl of years back made it a bit easier to get going.

Having said all that, the bike had been making a bit more noise this past year..seemed to be from the clutch area...and as this trip progressed the noise was becoming more prominent.  It sounded alike it was clutch related as it would decrease/increase depending on clutch use.  The bike had no issues once underway with respect to accelerating or pulling hills...no slipping.  The bike got us home into the driveway, and in the short time it took to unload and unhook the trailer the clutch gave up being nice.  I tried to back down the drive to take a short solo scoot and couldn't get the bike to roll backwards while in gear with the clutch lever pulled.  When I DID get it onto the street, it sounded like a handful of gravel had been tossed into the clutch / trans.  I put the bike in the garage for the night, not wanting to work on it in the heat.

When I pulled the clutch cover Sunday, there were a few small pieces of something probably important laying in the bottom of the engine case below the clutch basket, along with a chip of yellow-ish plastic.  The icing on this is that the clutch basket moves side to side along with the center shaft.  I found no damage to the friction or steel clutch plates when I removed them, so I suspect there is a bearing behind the clutch basket that is no longer intact.  Several mechanically savvy people have  indicated that the engine has to come out of the bike for the repair...if that is indeed the problem.  Although I have tackled a number of jobs on the bike over the past few years, I have neither the expertise nor the space to attempt that level of work.  If anyone has had a similar issue, I'd be curious to hear what the problem was and, more importantly, the outcome.

Given the overall reputation of rock solid, trouble-free life expectancy, I gotta say this is quite a letdown.  While I get that it's a soon to be 23 year old toy, it hasn't been abused by me or the original owner, and with my mechanic unable to get into it til September-ish,  my riding season just got a whole lot shorter.

Respectfully submitted ( with a small amount of *@$*!!)..

Fred

With ALL due respect to the savvy mechanics who suggested the engine would have to come out to address your scoots problem @Papa Fred,,, I dont agree,,, at least not yet. Its highly doubtful that the debris you found would have landed under the clutch basket if the failure were inside the cases beyond the area where the clutch is housed. Personally I would not make that suggestion until I had pulled the clutch entirely to examine the bearings, corresponding shafts and geared associated surfaces.. I truly think it would be in your best interest to pull the clutch out and inspect (no engine removal needed).  

[cowpuc]

Oh yeah,, SOOO SORRY TO HEAR ABOUT THIS but very glad you folks had a good trip and made it home safely. Puc

[Marcarl]

If memory serves me correct I think there is a plastic gear behind the clutch basket and it's yellow, and I agree with @cowpucthat anything laying under the basket is not engine internal.

[Marcarl]

1 hour ago, Marcarl said:

If memory serves me correct I think there is a plastic gear behind the clutch basket and it's yellow, and I agree with @cowpucthat anything laying under the basket is not engine internal.

Further, I think it might be the oil pump idler part  #26H-13351-01-00

[Papa Fred]

While I had the cover off, I was looking around the case beneath the clutch looking for more shrapnel and saw that plastic gear behind the clutch.  It's where I suspected the piece was from, but on the part of the gear that I could see I there was no damage.  I guess I could try bumping the motor on the starter to turn that gear, couldn't I?
Sorry @cowpucand @Marcarl..I wasn't thinking that those pieces were engine related.  I am truly hoping it's clutch or tranny, but my understanding from shop manual information is that the engine needs to be pulled to get at the trans.  Naturally, I'm certainly hoping it's something I can get at from the outside.

Regarding the basket removal.  There is the lock washer and large nut to remove, but it looks like the clutch push rod..the short #1...has to come out first.  Besides keeping track of that little ballbearing, should I be expecting that inner push rod to come flying out after pulling the small one?  There seems to be a bit of outward pressure on that small rod and I'm wondering if I'm going to get a fluid bath once that first rod pops out.  One more item that I just now saw looking at the parts manual (pdf).  The exploded view shows a bearing (#93306-00304-00 or B6003C4) as being to the outside of the push rod , nut and lock washer..as in it comes out first, yet the service pdf makes no mention of that bearing, nor does it appear in any diagram of the clutch removal.  Any thoughts?  I have replaced the OEM clutch with a Barnett Spring & Pressure Plate Conversion, along with their fiber and steel discs  The only bearing I can think of is the one in the center of the pressure plate, however I don't remember taking OUT a bearing from the OEM.  Not saying I didn't...just don't remember. (geezer alert!!)

I appreciate the info guys...both the hand-holding while I sob into my cold adult beverage, and the part # for that idler.   I now have something to do this evening.  I'll yank the clutch cover and take a shot at removing the basket to get eyes on what's back there.  If I can figure out how to get pictures up here, I'll try to post a few.  Visuals are usually more helpful than words. 

 

[cowpuc]

The tranny itself sets internal but the clutch and all associated gears driving the clutch set externally. If the problem were shedding of tranny gears the pieces and parts would land internally,, probably.  Yes, you definitly will have to pull the engine IF the tranny is gone but it just doesnt sound like that is the case. The bearing that the supports the outer clutch hub is actually not a "bearing" with rollers or balls, its actually a bushing that is pressed into the backside of the hub and is not replaceable with OEM parts. The little bearing in the pressure plate serves as a bearing for the clutch rod that forces the pressure plate open with the clutch slave piston pushes on the rod when you pull the clutch lever in so very little chance that that is related to the failure.. The bushing in the clutch basket is lubed thru oil bath and I suppose it is possible that a short duration of loss of oil from a oil pump drive gear failure could cause failure at that bushing. When removing the clutch assembly after you pull the pressure plate that mates with the fiber clutch plates you can remove the first section of clutch rod with no fear of fluid loss, matter of fact, you can remove both sections and the ball bearing between them with no threat of fluid loss OR the rods to come flying out because the clutch fluid that activates the clutch is held inside the clutch slave. There are no springs or fluid pressures there to be concerned with.  I would NOT pull the clutch lever during all this though because forcing the slave piston back in may create issues you dont need, just refrain from pulling it. In all seriousness, in my opinion the hardest part of the whole tear down is breaking the clutch boss nut loose because you have to hold the boss/basket together and keep them from spinning to break the large nut loose and do so with no help from clutch discs that are helpless because the pressure plate has to be removed to get at the nut. When I had my shop I had a pile of clutch steel plates that I had welded an "arm" onto to hold the boss while removing that nut on all kinds of bikes. You can easily make them if you have a spare steel plate and a welder. I also had GREAT success removing that nut with an air impact but if you try that DO NOT try to hold the boss by hand,, it'll rip up your hand. Instead take a bike tie down strap and wrap it around the boss, use it like strap wrench. WOW,, got lengthy,, sorry about that.. All that above is coming from a mind that has been out of it for a longgg time so dont be surprised if one of the clubs guru's jump in and correct me but dont hesitate to give it a shot until they do. there really isn't much to it and not much that one of these guru's cant correct us on..  @Papa Fred, again, sooo glad you didnt have this happen while on the road! God is good! Puc

[Papa Fred]

Thanks for that last bit of info @cowpuc...it addressed most of the questions I had...I'm sure more will pop up before long.  I like that idea of using an old clutch "steel" as a hub lock.  It just so happens I have a few steel plates from the clutch swap a while back, along with a buddy's Lincoln wire welder that he's in no hurry to get back.  I might just give that a try, or possibly your strap grip method.  Either way my 40 year old Craftsman Impact will be getting some exercise tonite.

Don't worry about carryin' on with the replies..I was able to make sense of it and follow right along.  Now I just have to transfer that "sense" to my hands and tools in the garage. 🤓

Cheers...

[saddlebum]

If that gear looks fine the only other thing I can think of is the rubbing blocks for the timing chain it's possible that a piece of that may have broke off. But it has been a while since I had my nose in there so I'm not 100% sure.

[Papa Fred]

Good evening guys...If my thumbs worked, there should be 6 pictures attached to this msg.  2 quick points...

1- That oil pump idler was indeed the source of the yellow plastic bits in the case.  Thanks for that, Carl. 

That idea of the timing chain blocks would have been a next place to look, Ben, but with the way that Idler is chewed up I think it was the source.

2- Puc..your suggestion of using a bike strap to hold the clutch drive was genius-level Use Whatcha Got thinking.  Worked like a charm, and with less effort than I was expecting.  I guess that center nut isn't really cranked on hard, given the lock washer holding it in place.  As is clearly obvious in a couple of the pics...the missing ball bearings were the culprit as far as I can figure.  They were obviously making all the noise while letting the basket move everywhere including in circles.

A question or two here though.  Is that 3-holed plate the only thing holding that bearing in place, or is it pressed onto the shaft as well?  Is this something that can be removed from the outside ( meaning "by me"), or does the tranny need to be taken apart to get at the shaft...which of course means pulling the engine.   Also, I can't find any reference pictures / diagrams in the Parts or Service PDFs that show that end of the shaft with the bearing and that hold-down plate.  The way I'm reading the Parts pdf is that bearing is part # 93306-36401-00 attaching to the outboard end of the Main Axle which is closer to the front of the trans.

One last issue...the elephant in the room as it were.  The bearing is missing what looks to be about 6 balls.  Since I didn't find any in the clutch area, and there is a fairly large opening below that area leading into the oil pan, I have to assume they are hopefully sitting at the bottom of the oil pan.  I was able to fish some metallic bits out of both the clutch area and in the oil pan using a small magnet but the ball bearings might have rolled to the Down Side of the pan since the bike is over on the lean stand.  According to the Service pdf, they say the engine has to come out to remove the pan and oil pump, but from what I could see, there is a dozen or so socket-head bolts holding the oil pan on and it looks like it would drop right out the bottom between the frame rails. I don't really want to try to coax the AWOL balls out of the oil drain hole, and they surely couldn't have disappeared.  Believe me when I say...any input from those who have gone this route before is welcome.

Once again, compadres...muchas gracias...Cheers

[Marcarl]

I never needed to get that bearing out of there, but by the looks of your pictures it should come straight off once you loosen the 3screws and that might give more info as to why and where the balls went. The plastic gear might have been damaged by somebody jamming the clutch basket back in place,,,,, maybeand then a real big maybe that a piece of the gear took out the bearing. As far as removing the oil pan while still in the bike???? I wouldn't. I think you would be better off taking it out. Getting it off would not be the issue so much as getting things back together proper.

[Papa Fred]

Good morning, Carl...

The following is due to lack of knowledge...if the pan will come out the bottom with the engine in place, what prevents it from going back in?  Isn't the oil pump pickup the only thing hanging down into the pan?

I'm going to drain the oil regardless of what else I find, since there was clear evidence of metal shavings and small pieces on my magnet fishing expedition, and I was thinking that by dropping the pan I would not only find those missing ballbearings but also be able to clean the screen on the oil pump.

I guess all this is because I was hoping to get the bike running again myself...with help...without losing the rest of our short season waiting for a time-slot in my mechanic's shop (late fall at best).  If the motor does indeed have to come out, I'm done for the year.

[Marcarl]

Unless somebody else has other ideas, pull the  pan and see how it fares out, worst case if it don't go back together you'll then have to pull the engine. Nothing lost then

[cowpuc]

@Papa Fred,, we are walking into uncharted territory for me on the Venture (I have personally split hundreds of cases on other scoots though) so bear with me on this and consider the source. When we 1st moved here and my neighbor found out about my background he took me over to his garage and showed me his old Kawasaki Voyager XII that had been sitting under a cover for years, an extremely low mileage complete bike. he said "$350 and its yours".  HUH says I. He then explained that he had hooked the oil drain bolt (that hung lower than the frame rails) on a rib on his trailer while loading it and busted a huge section of the internal cases out and all the oil instantly came out.  The quote on the repair at the time was close to 4 grand because, according to the dealership he bought it new from, the engine had to come apart for repair. I bought it, ran it up in the air on my lift, pulled the oil pan, discovered the snapped off piece that supported the oil pump was easily removable thru the oil pan access. Within a few hours I had the bike back together and ready for prep to hit the start button (cleaning the carbs took wayyyy more time than the original issue repair).  Moral of the story, NEVER overlook the obvious my friend. 

All that said, if the pan is removable, if I were in your shoes I would actually begin the repair attempt on your Venture with removing the pan. I would do that because I would want to account for as many of the missing parts from that bearing as I possibly could. I am not one to want to ride cross country with unattached parts/pieces laying around in the internals of the engine I am relying on.  There is also a really good chance that with the pan removed you will be able to examine the tranny for any damages that may have occurred/trapped pieces/parts from the bearing. Unfortunately you wont be able to examine the bearings that may have been exposed to pieces of the failed bearing but its still worth a shot IMHO. 

If most of the failed bearing parts are accountable for, leaving the pan off, I would then proceed with an attempt at removing the failed bearing without pulling the engine, from what I see it looks doable.  Notice the case split line is right across the bearing that needs replacing? That is a very familiar sight to me and tells me the outer race of the bearing you are looking at is not a press fit and indeed, that 3 hole retainer is capturing the bearing between itself and a shoulder behind it,, thats nice! The inner race on the shaft will be the issue but probably overcomeable for removal without pulling the engine. I would first test the inner race for tightness in fit by hitting it at an angle with a punch and see if it would move on the shaft,, I doubt it will.  I would then cut a piece of pipe whose I.D. would slide over the shaft but whose O.D. would not be larger than the I.D. of the inner race of the bearing. I would cut the pipe long enough that it would extend past the end of the exposed shaft to allow me to run a tap in the inside of the pipe so a bolt could be used to push against the face of the shaft. I would grind a small amount of relief on the O.D. of the other end of the pipe so I have a beveled edge to TIG weld to.  I would then TIG the pipe to the inner race, pull the retainer, put a washer on the face of the shaft end to push against and pull the bearing by tightening the bolt screwed into the end of the pipe. When installing the new bearing I would be VERY careful how I hard I hit it to drive it back in. I would start it with light tapping to make sure the outer race is not in a bind on the case but would switch to an air chisel with a punch in it instead of chisel and I would let the vibes from the air chisel work the bearing on.. 

There ya have it,, Puc

P.S.,,, in all my years of riding the Ventures I have never seen a failed bearing there. Didnt you say you pull a trailer? I cant help but wonder if the added torque needed to pull a trailer didn't somehow have something to do with failure of that bearing? All that said in another shot at stirring the pot around here lol

[Papa Fred]

You are correct about the trailer.  We don't use it a lot and by that I mean maybe 3 times a year for relatively short rides...2 - 300 miles.  This was the first long haul with it (approx 1200 miles), and it was pretty much 3 days of steady riding. ( Old Fart Tour)  Broad strokes...Winnipeg, MB to Kenora, ON, then down to International Falls, MN, south and east to Ely, MN, down to Lake Superior then West from Duluth to Grand Forks, ND and home to Winnipeg.  A lot of that was in moderate hilly country and I don't generally cruise any quicker than 65 mph.  The VMax rear puts the engine at 3500rpm, which seems to be a happy spot for the motor.  All that to say this...The bike seemed to be working fine considering the all-in weight.  I had some concerns about pulling a trailer before getting one, and thought I was moving in the right direction by going with that VMax rear after reading a few posts from members who had gone that route.

As for "stirring the pot" 🙂..the one oddity I noticed when I got the bike up on my scissor jack.(besides that whole bearing thing) was there had been oil seeping out at the joint of the gear pumpkin and the drive shaft tube (those 4 acorn nuts).  It wasn't dripping, more like oozing out then carried toward the rear by the wind.  Not a lot of oil, but enough to catch dirt.  Definitely a first.

Wrapping up here, for now...I know a guy who has a wrecked 2nd Gen (unsure of year but I think it's newer than mine).  The bike was written off after a front-end hit.  Everything from the handlebars forward was damaged, but everything aft is good.  If memory serves I think the rad was untouched, which to me suggests no engine damage other than the sudden stop.  He says he will sell me the engine.  As of this post, I have not been to see him to determine a price, or for that matter to confirm the motor does indeed run.  Something I have to get my head around, since I don't have the ability or shop space to pull and disassemble a motor.

This whole riding thing is fun tho...right?

[dueyk1111]

I HAVE REPLACED THE OIL PAN ON MY BIKE, THE METAL AROUND THE DRAIN PLUG STRESS CRACKED N LEAKED. ITHE OIL PAN WILL COME OUT N GO BACK IN THE bottom of the bike fine without hav'n to remove the motor. just don't  get in a hurry!

[Papa Fred]

Good to hear, Duey...Thanks.  I'll be working on that later today. 👍

[Papa Fred]

Here's an update for everyone following this thread....alright alright... the 3 guys who stumbled on this by accident while looking for important stuff.

Looks like I'm done for the year.  That donor bike was a bust.  Unknown year, unknown mileage and the bike hasn't been run in over 4 years, plus visible evidence of questionable storage since it was hit had me wondering about the internal condition of the engine, since the air box over the carbs was gone and 2 of the exhaust ports were open to the weather for an unknowable amount of time.

Rather than spend money on an incomplete donor (which I don't have room for), which was missing a LOT of parts , I'll spend the money on mine, since I've spent the last 5 years getting to know how she wants me to treat her.  My mechanic will take apart the engine and transmission, clean and inspect them, replace bearings and ?? as needed, and put it all back the way it should be...rather than me attempting the job in my limited space, using limited knowledge, realizing I haven't got a clue what I'm doing, and delivering to him a box of parts and a bike with a hole where the engine should be.  He'll be much happier and I'll get a bike back that runs.

The downside to this of course, is that he operates a very busy 2-man independent shop, and with the work he currently has he won't be able to get mine in till after the riding season ends around here...late October (yep...snow zone).  It's a fitting end to what was a shorter-than-normal season this year.  With the record ugly winter we had, I couldn't get the bike out til the first week of May.

I feel that refreshing a bike I already know goes down a better road than spending money on an unknown headache in an attempt to get back on the road sooner.  Thanks to all for tuning in and chipping in.

Cheers...