07 Venture ‘Drive Pully’?

[craigatcsi]

I took my Venture to our local dealer for a clutch issue. I had a lot of play at the handle and shifting was tough.

   After they took a look at it, they said the lower hydraulic needed rebuilt. So they ordered the parts. Two weeks later, I get a call from them saying that when they went to start the repairs, they noticed that “All four bolts on the Drive pulley are sheared off”. He said they have never seen this before, and attributed it to being converted into a trike. - Have any of you Venture Trike owners had this happen?

   They are a ways from where I live, so I don’t want the drive just to look at it. YouTube has nothing on it. Do you folks know of a resource that I can look at to see what he is referring to?

Edited October 14, 2021 by craigatcsi
To add a pic

[luvmy40]

Not sure what "drive pulley" they are speaking of. I've never had a trike conversion on any bike, but a shaft drive does not have a "drive pulley" it has a right angle drive with spline gears.

[Guest divey]

I've got an 08 with the Hannigan kit but have never heard of a drive pulley.  Probably best to call the folks at Hannigan and ask them.  I think they're pretty good at helping out.

[craigatcsi]

I just now added to my original post, a pic he sent me.

[Marcarl]

One question I would have is: where are the heads of those bolts? and another: what were they doing inn the middle drive area for a clutch issue?

[saddlebum]

I doubt the Hannigan kit is responsible, those bolts on there are only keeper bolts to hold the two bearing retainer plates in place. The bearing is a ball bearing so unlike a taper bearing there is or should be little no side thrust unless there is an issue between the the angled middle gears such as a broken tooth or too much lash between the two gears because of worn bearings or improper shimming of the gears but since one bolt appears to still be in place unless it is loose, I am inclined to second guess that thought. So my 1st thought is this has been worked on before and the retaining bolts have been over torqued. The top two appear to have had the tops taken off while the lower bolt has a clean break. 2nd thought is the bolts loosened off for one reason or another allowing in and out sideways movement of the bearing under minor shock loads resulting in pounding of the bolts until they finally failed.  3rd thought is the drive line suffered some sort of shock load between the angled middle drive gears forcing the bearing outwards snapping the heads off two bolts and making a clean break of the third but which does not explain why the fourth bolt appears to be still intact unless it is loose. 4th thought binding or seizing u joints on the drive shaft can cause strain on the middle gears and bearings. Finally some foreign object or broken piece floating around in the gear box, so regardless of the cause, I would not just extract and replace the bolts. Remove the engine and gear box, open it up and do a thorough inspection checking all the bearings in case they have had debris go through them. I would also check the final drive for any defects including improper gear lash between crown and pinion. Too much gear lash could cause There may be other causes but these are the ones that hit the top of my list.

Edited October 15, 2021 by saddlebum

[craigatcsi]

I took my trike in because it had a lot of play at the clutch handle. They said the upper clutch hydraulics were fine, but the lower needed to be rebuilt. To rebuild this lower clutch hydraulics, would they need to remove these bolts? - I’m wondering if they snapped the bolts while trying to remove them.

craigr

[luvmy40]

No, they definitely did not need to remove these screws to rebuild the clutch slave cylinder. Taking the middle drive cover off does make accessing the slave cylinder easier, but it's not absolutely necessary, IIRC.(and I may not!)

[luvmy40]

I do seem to recall another instance of those screws being broken, but I can't for life of me remember who's bike it was or what the final outcome/cause was determined to be.

[Marcarl]

3 hours ago, craigatcsi said:

I took my trike in because it had a lot of play at the clutch handle. They said the upper clutch hydraulics were fine, but the lower needed to be rebuilt. To rebuild this lower clutch hydraulics, would they need to remove these bolts? - I’m wondering if they snapped the bolts while trying to remove them.

craigr

Any idea of how much fluid was in the reservoir by the handle?

[saddlebum]

7 hours ago, craigatcsi said:

I took my trike in because it had a lot of play at the clutch handle. They said the upper clutch hydraulics were fine, but the lower needed to be rebuilt. To rebuild this lower clutch hydraulics, would they need to remove these bolts? - I’m wondering if they snapped the bolts while trying to remove them.

craigr

They definitely DO NOT need to remove those bolts to work on the clutch slave or even the clutch itself, which is on the opposite side. However for easier access to remove and install the clutch slave some do remove the middle gear cover and this likely is when they spotted the broken bearing retainer bolts. As far as, is it possible that they broke the bolts? That would only occur if they removed them for some reason and reinstalled them but there is no reason other than replacing the middle gear bearing for them to even touch those bolts.

Edited October 16, 2021 by saddlebum

[Marcarl]

The top right bolt looks like somebody made an attempt to drill it. Wonder who broke those bolts?

 

[M61A1MECH]

The two top bolts have had their heads drilled off, the one lower left has been sheared off, maybe during an attempt to remove it. The remaining bolt has the punch mark from where it was staked when assembled. I wonder where the top retainer plate is? Those bolt have loctite on them so naturally will be hard to remove. I have never seen this issue before, the will certainly need to carefully drill them out and maybe put a helicoil or timesert in there if they damage the threads.

http://www.timesert.com/

 

 

[RDawson]

For the top two I’d heavily protect the area and weld a nut on em and back it out with a socket. Just set a nut over the protruding bolt and mig weld inside the nut. The weld heat will release the loctite and they should easily back out. The big question is what caused this and why were they taking it apart. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by RDawson

[Woody]

I believe I read where they have the bolts out, maybe craigatcsi will give us an update.

[saddlebum]

On 10/15/2021 at 8:39 PM, Marcarl said:

The top right bolt looks like somebody made an attempt to drill it. Wonder who broke those bolts?

 

What appears to look like an attempt to drill them out could also just be the  bottom of the socket hole. I am more inclined to think that for one reason or another the heads snapped off, either from being over torqued or trying to use an impact driver and snapping the heads off (I have seen this type of head snap off like this on more than one occasion ). The way the bottom strap is marked around the hole would indicate something has been floating around in there. Maybe the bottom bolt snapped off for some reason and the tech snapped the heads off the top two in an attempt to remove the bearing so he could look behind it for debris.

On 10/16/2021 at 8:27 AM, M61A1MECH said:

The two top bolts have had their heads drilled off, the one lower left has been sheared off, maybe during an attempt to remove it. The remaining bolt has the punch mark from where it was staked when assembled. I wonder where the top retainer plate is? Those bolt have loctite on them so naturally will be hard to remove. I have never seen this issue before, the will certainly need to carefully drill them out and maybe put a helicoil or timesert in there if they damage the threads.

http://www.timesert.com/

 

 

Definitely torque to yield one time use bolts. Torque to yield bolts have an engineered stretch factor built into them and this is why they are only meant to be used once

On 10/16/2021 at 9:57 AM, RDawson said:

For the top two I’d heavily protect the area and weld a nut on em and back it out with a socket. Just set a nut over the protruding bolt and mig weld inside the nut. The weld heat will release the loctite and they should easily back out. The big question is what caused this and why were they taking it apart. 

My technique for removing broken bolts if drilling and easy out, will not work, is to place a copper washer around the hole and then a steel washer over the copper washer (this protects the base metal from the arc). I than weld the metal washer to the bolt filing the hole in the washer. Next a place a second larger washer over the first and weld the second washer to the first washer and weld again filling the hole. Sometimes I may add a third even larger washer. I will then weld a nut or bolt head to the final washer. let it cool right down an hour or so and then gently work the nut back and forth with a wrench slowly an d carefully remove the bolt. Do not try to force it in one move even if it moves a bit unless it is completely loosened. I will use this method even on recessed brake like the bottom bolt but that requires the use of a stick welder not a mig and a very steady hand. Sometimes a copper or brass sleeve slide into the hole will protect the sides from welding arc.

If you wish to drill and but the bolt is too hard for a normal bit you can use a carbide drill (not a masonry bit) to drill it. I have even drilled out broken taps with these carbide drils. Keep in mind this bits are not cheap and are brittle a slight tweak will drilling can snap them in a heart beat. There are also diamond tipped drills for hard metals But I personally have not used them.

Edited October 17, 2021 by saddlebum

[craigatcsi]

They did get the snapped bolts out. The mechanic told me that he used an ‘Easy-Out’ and the came out pretty easy, (thank God). As of now, we are in a holding pattern until the new bolts arrive.

[saddlebum]

46 minutes ago, craigatcsi said:

They did get the snapped bolts out. The mechanic told me that he used an ‘Easy-Out’ and the came out pretty easy, (thank God). As of now, we are in a holding pattern until the new bolts arrive.