1983 Venture, Ignition "welded" open, where to start?

[RyanBrown8152]

Hey, so Happy to find you guys, I came across this 1983 Venture a few years ago when I desperately needed a bike, Picked it up for all of $800, and she ran great until, one afternoon I went to restart her and I got a couple of cranks and the battery died, tried to push start (previously had success this way circumventing dead batteries) no luck this time, had a guy try to help charge/jump only to burn up the jumper cable. the best advice i could pry out of anybody is that there is a tab somewhere under the front left engine cover, so I have been sitting looking at this dream grow dimmer and dimmer because I can't afford to take it to anybody and I don't know where to begin with this bike, I have built demo cars, a street-drag truck, rebuilt and repaired a handful of motorcycles but I just have know idea what to do or where to start with this issue... any help with a more precise diagnosis and/or a proper starting point would be greatly appreciated, if you guys can help get me there,  I can probably get through without a lot more help.

 

Thanks in advance, 

Ryan "DevilDog" Brown

[SpencerPJ]

Have you checked the starter relay, similar to old Fords, just to the left of the battery?

[Marcarl]

Tell us more info:

Battery voltage, at the posts and at the connectors.

Does the headlight come on when you turn the ignition.

Check the main fuse, left side of battery in rectangular plastic holder. Should be an extra one there as well.

 

[Jayceesfolly]

When attempting to jump start  a dead battery on the Venture, make sure the car or pickup is NOT running.  The output of the alternator on the car or truck  may be too high for the electrical systems on the bike and may fry some of the circuits.  As Carl said above, check the master fuse on the left side of the battery.  It is a flat metal wishbone fuse under a plastic cover.  If I remember....it is a 40 amp.

 

Jim

[saddlebum]

 

11 hours ago, Jayceesfolly said:

When attempting to jump start  a dead battery on the Venture, make sure the car or pickup is NOT running.  The output of the alternator on the car or truck  may be too high for the electrical systems on the bike and may fry some of the circuits.  As Carl said above, check the master fuse on the left side of the battery.  It is a flat metal wishbone fuse under a plastic cover.  If I remember....it is a 40 amp.

 

Jim

Jim is correct about the master fuse it is a replaceable blade type fuse held by a screw on each end and often that same plastic case will have a couple of spare blades stored in it. I went a step further and replace it with a 40 amp MAXI FUSE

https://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuses/automotive-aftermarket-products/blade-fuses/maxi/max40.aspx

 

[RyanBrown8152]

19 hours ago, SpencerPJ said:

Have you checked the starter relay, similar to old Fords, just to the left of the battery?

Thank you, yes I did and it was the 1st thing that was replaced 

[RyanBrown8152]

16 hours ago, Marcarl said:

Tell us more info:

Battery voltage, at the posts and at the connectors.

Does the headlight come on when you turn the ignition.

Check the main fuse, left side of battery in rectangular plastic holder. Should be an extra one there as well.

 

I will try to give you the most accurate Information I  can, i got the bike very used but miraculously running, i did what I could to unmess the wiring, mostly just replacing splices and wires that had been done "poorly" and everything was working near perfect for around 10k miles, then one Saturday afternoon in the DQ Parking lot, i turned on the ignition engaged the starter and it has been stuck open ever since, i originally thought it was a battery or a fuse/relay problem after replacing the relay testing the battery charging and reinstalling the battery and turning the ignition key the starter tries to start the bike but it acts like the battery is dying and the positive cable gets hot. That's when i was told it was "a contact tab in there that's welded open" I tried to get clarity on exactly what that meant but never got another answer.  And now its been almost 2 years.  I really hope that comes across ok, I really need the help and I will try my best to get you guys the info you need when i can or you let me know what to find out. Oh... And I do believe the headlight worked but dimmed really really fast .

[Marcarl]

Sounds to me like you might have a short in the starter or the cable going to the starter. You might also check the connections at the battery, pull and tug on the cables to make sure they are clean and tight. Don't be afraid to hull on them a bit, if they are loose they will come apart and you found a problem that needs fixing anyways.

[RyanBrown8152]

I have removed all but the battery box (trying will destroy it) and I can find no blade fuses anywhere. all fuses are the old glass barrels it's a 1983...

[Marcarl]

31 minutes ago, RyanBrown8152 said:

I have removed all but the battery box (trying will destroy it) and I can find no blade fuses anywhere. all fuses are the old glass barrels it's a 1983...

As you sit on the bike,,, to the left of the battery box there should be a rectangular in-line box, about 2 inches long by about 1inch square. There are 2 red wires coming from the positive side of the battery, one is large and goes to the solenoid and the other is smaller and has the in-line fuse.

[saddlebum]

You can also jump from the battery right to the  post on the starter. let the bike get well up to temp and repeat the test with the bike hot.  if it cranks over healthy like both hot and cold, the starter is likely Ok.  If not than you just narrowed it down to the starter. Sometimes a bad starter is fine when cold but binds up and draws a lot of currant when hot. Keep in mind a starter can fail due to worn out or seized bearings as well as electrical issues.

Edited July 20, 2021 by saddlebum

[RyanBrown8152]

Update... Thank you all for the advice so far, I have a new relay, checked all connections and fuses, hooked up a battery and got lights, gages ect, hit the ignition button and I get a nice strong click from the relay, so... went right to the source and jumped to the positive post on the starter, and I get a bump, not enough rotation to cycle a cylinder... So I'm thinking new starter new battery and I might be back up and running.  Please let me know if you folks see a different path that I am over looking... 🤞

[SpencerPJ]

when you jumped straight to the starter, was it the bikes battery, or another known good one?  My 83 starter is the old 2 brush junk, but still works fine with a decent battery and some connection mods.  Personally, I'd start with a solid jump from a known good battery that is fully charged.  I'm sure you need a new battery, just hate throwing money at it until the bike seems known to be salvageable.

[saddlebum]

On 7/21/2021 at 3:45 PM, SpencerPJ said:

when you jumped straight to the starter, was it the bikes battery, or another known good one?  My 83 starter is the old 2 brush junk, but still works fine with a decent battery and some connection mods.  Personally, I'd start with a solid jump from a known good battery that is fully charged.  I'm sure you need a new battery, just hate throwing money at it until the bike seems known to be salvageable.

I agree with Spencer. However if it does end up needing a starter do yourself a favour and try to acquire a 4 brush starter. It is like day and night specially when trying to crank over a hot engine.

[RyanBrown8152]

More progress(?) I got the starter removed, had it tested, spun fast but no shaft extension, so I now do I rebuild, or buy? Not sure if the current starter is OEM or not...  Case reads: "Mitsuba SM-229c 12v 0.6 Kw" best I can tell from google is that it is 1st gen.  So Recommendations on rebuilding v. buying a 2nd gen 4 brush. Hoping that you guys can share your experiences on the "best" path forward here.

 

Thanks,

Ryan

[SpencerPJ]

If I had a starter issue with my 83, and I had it out, NO WAY would I rebuild it or put another 2 brush back in.  Totally go 4 brush.  If you are super frugal, there are places on the web and I'm sure a search on this site would show you how to take apart and cleanup.

[saddlebum]

37 minutes ago, RyanBrown8152 said:

More progress(?) I got the starter removed, had it tested, spun fast but no shaft extension, so I now do I rebuild, or buy? Not sure if the current starter is OEM or not...  Case reads: "Mitsuba SM-229c 12v 0.6 Kw" best I can tell from google is that it is 1st gen.  So Recommendations on rebuilding v. buying a 2nd gen 4 brush. Hoping that you guys can share your experiences on the "best" path forward here.

 

Thanks,

Ryan

There is no shaft extension with these starters the gear is a fixed gear which remains engaged full time The mechanical connect and disconnect between the engine and starter is done through what is known as a sprag clutch or in laymen's terms a one way clutch. This something like a large roller bearing that freewheels when the inner ring runs faster than the outer race but locks up when the outer race runs faster than the inner race such as when the starter which is gear connected to the outer race causes the outer race to over run the inner race. once the engine starts the inner race over rides the outer race and the clutch disengages and the outer race becomes stationary as the starter button is released. This is why you sometimes think the starter skips when an engine attempts to fire but its only the clutch disengaging becuase for a split second the inner race over ran the outer race.

Getting back to your starter when you run it on the bench even though it turns over does it sound smooth or gravelly. It could still have a bad set of bearings that seem OK with a load on the starter but once a load is place on them they can bind up. I would either replace with a 4 brush if possible now that you have it out or at the very least dis-assemble the starter and inspect the bearings for wear and or smooth rotation, if they feel even the slightest bit of roughness they are done. If the sealed bearings feel smooth but spin so freely they just keep spinning they are also done, this indicates most of the grease in the bearing is gone. they should turn smooth with some drag. clean the armature and brushes if the bearings are OK and reassemble and retest if spins real well and relatively smoothly you may get away with reusing it.