Bad head gasket?

[Tysons87venture]

Does this mean I have a blown head gasket? Basically looks like mud in the coolant, any advice, does this mean the bike is toast?

[luvmy40]

No first hand experience with this but, I have been told this could be the twinky gasket. Something about coolant in the oil but no oil in the coolant?

 

Like I said, no real experience.

[Tysons87venture]

I had done a coolant flush when first getting bike, there was some of this crud in it, I never thought anything of it just figured that dexcool had been used and that was the issue, I am now wondering if it didnt all get flushed through originally,  I did a compression check and have 142psi in rear cylinders 122 on the front, still have to do the wet test and see if it changes, seems low though compared to manual, so might be looking for a new bike, love this bike with only 500 km that I got to ride on it, just dont know how much to spend on it

[saddlebum]

From the picture it looks like rust mud. Has this bike been run with straight water in it by chance. In any case before tearing the engine down, I would do a thorough flush. A bit of automatic no suds dish washer powder soap and water for the first run and run engine up to temp about 15 to 20 minutes allow to cool drain and fill with clean water and run up again. Continue until relatively clean water drains out. Then fill with clean aluminum compatible antifreeze (STAY AWAY FROM GM  DEXCOOL). Don'the forget to was out the overflow tank. Ride the bike and keep an eye on it.

You can also do a cylinder leak down test and/or combustion gases test. You  need a special tool with test fluid for this most auto parts stores carry them as does amazon.  The later will tell you if the head gasket is leaking by detecting combustion gases in the rad.

[Patch]

Just my thoughts on how I would approach this project. But first I would be hard pressed to assume the bike is toast, they just don't have that reputation. 

I agree with Bum on the flushing part. I however would be more aggressive in choice of chemicals. 

That said after flushing I would pressurize the cooling system and monitor for pressure drop. Now in this case a leak down  might mislead you. At 122 the crankcase pressure must be up? When we run into that issue testing becomes a game of experience to determine or separate  the issue of having pressure on both side of the piston rings.

Look up "a case for fogging" here on the forum, tried proven and tested, its also safe. For me there is little doubt she'll come around. 

[saddlebum]

Sorry pressure testing and looking for pressure drop, or running the engine with the pressure tester on it and looking for excessive pressure build up were two items I meant to include but the Grand kids showed up so I cut myself short. There are more aggressive chemicals you can use but at the shop were I work dishwasher detergent is all we ever use when we get engines with cooling systems contaminated with either oil or diesel fuel. The more aggressive chemicals we only use if we feel that their may be a build up of scale in the cooling system.

[Tysons87venture]

Thanks alot guys, I really appreciate it, I am feeling more confident now in the project, i really think I didnt get all the sludge build up in the first 4-5 flushes I did and that was before bike was on the road, now getting 500km of riding in the sludge has plugged up in areas I believe, the rad was super slow to drain so I have lots of work to do to get all this crap out of the system, aside from this bike runs fairly well, hoping the low compression is something that can be solved by adjusting valves or having a mechanic do work on the top of engine for me this winter.

 I'm sorry for bringing up multiple subjects in this forum if alot of this stuff is already out there, the only issue I have found with bike is running really rich, which could be to do with how I put carbs back together, i have an idle backfire and she burns tons of fuel, I have a morgan carb tune coming in the mail this week so hopefully I can learn that and see if I can sort out some issues being that every mechanic in my area is either to busy or will not even look at my bike as it is to old.

I am really thankful for all you people with experience with these bikes and hope one day I can see you guys on the road. I owe you guys big time if this all works out for me, such a comfortable bike, these bikes are great!

[saddlebum]

Never apologize in the search for answers. Situations like yours as well as camaraderie is the reasons this site exists and those of us that are able to help are only happy to do so.

As far as your fuel consumption goes two of the more common causes are stuck enrichment valves (often referred to as the choke. A common sign of this but not always the case, is that you never need to choke your bike to start it even on very cool mornings. You can try observing them for movement as you move the choke lever as they are mounted on the outside of the carbs and manipulated by levers too which the choke cable runs.

Another issue is the float levels set to high which sadly is not an easy thing to check on a 1st gen and is easier done with the carbs removed and on the bench.

If your valve set is so far out that you are loosing compression this could cause an incomplete or inefficient burn resulting in low power and higher fuel consumption.

Also when draining the Rad there is a hex valve near the oil filter housing. marked drain. make sure it is set in the on position when draining or filling the cooling system and turn to the off position for normal operation.

Edited July 8, 2021 by saddlebum

[Patch]

When I saw the pic of the rad hose the first thing I thought was Iron water. I once lived on a strip of land surrounded by fresh water but our well was so high in dissolved iron our heavy filtration system could keep up and was plugged in just 5 month. Or septic was just as bad.

PH is a subject I haven't thought of in a long time but I do know that PH is a consideration that is balanced when you are dealing with coolant fluids. Most cleaning solution rely on temperature to reach a performance level. Is why I am aggressive when choosing one where I know I can get away with it.

"slow to drain" that can be just as Bum eludes to or it can be sludge? I had this old swamp buggy 4x4 when it was cold my front wheel would drag not turn? I went to drop the diff oil yikes... So I filled it with thinner ran it lightly then drain rinse and repeated.

Rich: like Ben says lots of potential reasons for this. So is low compression a cause.

1: deal with the cooling system

2: remove the carbs

3: soak the piston rings

That's how I would plan it out.

I'm going to vote a firm NO for the valve lash as the compression is too high for leaking valves. 

[saddlebum]

2 hours ago, Patch said:

I'm going to vote a firm NO for the valve lash as the compression is too high for leaking valves. 

Keep in mind how much compression leaks off is related to how much the valve leaks. Too little to zero clearance can keep a valve  from seating properly or allow for a longer open time of the valve allowing some compression to escape during the compression test. I have seen this occur on many engines with mechanical valve adjusters, were less experienced techs that work under me were ready to condemn an engine, only to discover that compression was fine once I had them  reset the valves to proper clearances.

Edited July 8, 2021 by saddlebum

[Patch]

I hear what your say Bum.

As you know I have work on and owned many different motorcycles still own too. 

Yes I can if I try hard to adjust a rocker to a faint lead but I'd be really hard press to get it to 122 lbs.

Yes if I were less confident I would perform the leak down test before I get to the lash! But I'm not so I see more sticky rings then I can tribute to lash issues.

Also as you and I know, sludge holds btu's longer than a proper cooling mix. The constant heat that must have been cooking up front there on those jugs and the obvious lack of engine maintenance leads me to think that that engine needs a soak and a rinse

But the lesson you bring forward is valid  

[Tysons87venture]

This is great, thanks for all the advice, i really feel I am learning alot, hope to one day be at half your guys experience level. I am going to attempt to clean all this crud out of system tonight.

My next question is what do you guys recommend I use for coolant?

I know we had talked about using no suds dishwasher power and water for first couple flush through. And also a stronger chemical

would a coolant flush product be worth the money?

I used to use prestone 5050 blend in my superhawk and never had any issues. I seen patch is in Calgary, I probably gave you a wave at some point in the 7 years I spent there.

I also really loved motul oil, my bike ran so smooth and shifted so nice. Do you guys have recommendations in that regard?

 

I did read the article case for fogging and what a good read it was, really lucky to have this site, thanks again for all the work you guys put into this. So much to learn on here and when no one is willing to even look at a bike this old, I have been able to get this classic back on the road

[larrydr]

Before I would do any major of engine work , I would do an extensive cooling system flush ..and system pressure  test

Then I use the right antifreeze  with clean potable / household water  and maybe do a oil and filter change then run it

[Patch]

So heres the truth: Bum and I are just Canadian forward. But we are just the surface. It really is our hope that young remembers stick around.

If you choose you will thru your sharing of mistakes under your finger nails, learn confidence. That is really what the sport is about!

Dad and Carl set this forum up to carry on well past us old timers. So ask now, gain that confidence but, don't stretch beyond it.

What do we have to offer the younger crowd? History, that's real, all we have in words we shared. What you all do with it well we'll be looking down and seeing if you's is using it fairly. (no ego) 

We lost a lot of great guys over the years. The important thing to remember about forums is that it is always ok to agree to disagree! And, in that is the best of advise we have to share! Don't enter a group experienced with a chip in your eye. 

Dad taught us all that, and, Lord knows we put him thru the paces that one ting, " OH you really want to know what I think"  let me tell ya, you've just been told// Of course Carl is always trying to keep the peace.. yaknow be a Canadian, when really some of us just need to set the roof a blaze yaknow like bros at the kitchen table!

For me tho I love/hate everybody equal, because if I don't like them, likely I am meeting their wives at the boarder anyways ( not allowed over,, its just a big miss understanding, of course) The thing is is that this joint of all those that have treated me BETTER is a cool place for a mans mind to hang his hat. Read the old stuff to get to understanding of the wealth of experience, and make that a part of yours.

There really is no magic to what we know. So just flow with it, pass it on, just accept as most Canadians do, that we is just better at some thins  (knows whats I means)

[saddlebum]

 

17 hours ago, Tysons87venture said:

I used to use prestone 5050 blend in my superhawk and never had any issues. I seen patch is in Calgary, I probably gave you a wave at some point in the 7 years I spent there.

I tend to be a fan of Prestone  but any aluminum friendly silicate free antifreeze is fine. If you use concentrate I highly recommend buying distilled or de-ionized water to mix with it. tap water will just start to introduce scale and mineral build up. If distilled or de-ionized water is not next to the antifreeze in the store try the drug or grocery stores. Some may suggest potable water but don't use it. All potable  means is that it is safe for human consumption. Even potable water can have high levels of sulfur and minerals which can build up in your cooling system.

17 hours ago, Tysons87venture said:

would a coolant flush product be worth the money?

  It is if you have a scale build up but choose carefully. Some can be very aggressive and require a thorough rinsing. Some come in two parts. Part one is the flush part two is a neutralizer again flush thoroughly. In either case choose carefully and make sure it is compatible with the parts in your cooling system such as aluminum and plastic. Some flushes are not aluminum safe and can actually eat away at the aluminum. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by saddlebum

[Squidley]

17 hours ago, Tysons87venture said:

My next question is what do you guys recommend I use for coolant?

 

Just use a standard green 50/50 mix antifreeze. Whatever flavor (Prestone, Peak, or other reputable name) will work fine.

[Patch]

I should of chimed in earlier, The is a flush product that I and others use around these parts, its a dishwasher cleaner/flush.

• Bum is correct about the distilled water. Going through the process just to contaminate the coolant with tap water is just a step backwards.
• Are you still in AB.?

[Tysons87venture]

I am in ontario, miss alberta riding, would love to do a cross country tour out there If I could get bike running good enough, I did my electrical apprenticeship through sait and really enjoyed my years out there, my bro still lives there so I try to visit a few weeks a year but covid has really changed those plans

[Patch]

Well AB. is on the rocks for now, fortunate your in Ontario to begin your career as a journeyman!

I love riding Ont. if the fall, I have never know more beauty per mile than Northern Ont.. One day think of running North then loop over coming down and grab the Toba, wow that ghost running across the train planked bridge and on down thru those old Southern towns. Just be mindful of gravel pull across the HW's from cars running the shoulders.

Let us know when you pull the carbs 

[Tysons87venture]

Yes northern ontario Is beautiful, I hope to someday get to do that ride on a bike, I've driven 4 times  now in car. The carbs are  now pulled so the learning begins, hoping to get this right this time and get some better mileage 

[Patch]

when Bum chimes in or others a reminder if can has time to walk you thru the 2 enriching valves.

[Patch]

Now that the carbs are off this is one of my go to tests:

Place a flat palm over one intake choking it off from air

Rotate the engine using the starter and a well charged battery

Rapidly you should feel strong kind of spooky suction on your palm

The first try is a bit of a hit and miss as you get past the shock of doing it

You should only need 5 intake strokes

 

Then see if you feel a rapid loss of vacuum not coming from your palm seal

If it can’t hold vacuum for say 5ish seconds then you have a leak

If you feel any push upwards on your palm then you have and intake valve problem or a real backfire

 

Then pull the plugs and fill the cylinders with your choice I use deepcreep

Keep the plugs out will the engine soaks

Shock the crank every now and then by rocking the wheel back and forth while in first gear

The idea is to work the chemical thru the rings and get them to float again

That allows them to spring and lock compression again

Keep in mind that stuck rings can be one side of the ring or resistance to the complete ring’s

This will also loosen the chit in the oil ring so the oil flush will clean them out

 

Starting the bike afterwards: well that’s a matter of keeping the plugs dry

So blow out the cylinders well helps a lot

Cover with a rubber band and rag on the intake pipes to reduce the blowout thru the open intake valves, less mess to clean up. Use one around the lugs with the air nozzle so it reduces chance of splash in your eyes and face, wear protection

 

You can remove the fresh oil from the crankcase before you soak the tops, I use cheap dyno oil for the first flush then jump to Rotella I get at Princess by the pale, always change the oil filter

You can let it soak while the guys walk you thru the carbs

I’d wish you luck but you have the club so luck isn’t an issue

 

 

[larrydr]

I think to agree and to disagree is just fine ...Sometimes that is the only we can learn

[saddlebum]

2 hours ago, larrydr said:

I think to agree and to disagree is just fine ...Sometimes that is the only we can learn

We do learn more that way. If you always think your right how will you ever know when your wrong..

 

3 hours ago, Patch said:

Now that the carbs are off this is one of my go to tests:

Place a flat palm over one intake choking it off from air

Rotate the engine using the starter and a well charged battery

Rapidly you should feel strong kind of spooky suction on your palm

The first try is a bit of a hit and miss as you get past the shock of doing it

You should only need 5 intake strokes

 

Then see if you feel a rapid loss of vacuum not coming from your palm seal

If it can’t hold vacuum for say 5ish seconds then you have a leak

If you feel any push upwards on your palm then you have and intake valve problem or a real backfire

Man that,s an old but effective trick we used to use years ago I have long since forgotten about. It was also a quick check for a faulty or stretched timing chain. Guess with cars going away from carbs you just don't much think about it any more. On the diesel trucks I mostly work on now good intake flow is indicated when your hat disappears into the turbo.

Edited July 10, 2021 by saddlebum

[Patch]

LOL YEP !

The coasting circuit Bum with the enricher, I could think of the name earlier, guess my memory aint was either

Well at least I haven't forgotten my spelling....