83 stranded me yesterday - transmission?

[windrider1983]

I was road testing the lubricating of the odometer yesterday evening (used the info in an earlier thread about making a zerc fitting - seems to have worked) - so the odometer whine was gone - was happy about that. But while cruising up the freeway at 70 mph, enjoying the silence, the bike suddenly starting lugging and losing speed, dropping to 50 almost before I could tell what was going on. At that point I tried to downshift and as soon as I pulled in the clutch it seemed like the rear wheel locked up (screeching and tire smoke). I was in the process of downshifting to 4th so I continued that, popping the clutch and it seemed to at least get the wheel moving again but continued to struggle. At this point I was in the left lane in traffic trying to get over and out of the moving lanes and fortunately caught a brief break in the flow and got to the berm - when i pulled the clutch again, the rear wheel again locked up. I somehow worked the gears and the clutch enough to get to a very quick but controlled stop and the engine stopped at the same time as the bike.  It would start and idle normally, and rev normally, but dropping it into first or second immediately caused it to stall (instantaneously). Needless to say, called AAA and I was back in my garage about 2 hours later.  Is this definitely a transmission issue, or possible final gear in the rear hub (it did seem stuck initially when we went to roll it up on the tow truck ramp, but it did start rolling then), or something else? Not sure where to start.        

[BlueSky]

I'm no expert on these bikes but I think I would start on the rear by making sure the brake isn't sticking, not likely I'm thinking, and then pull the rear wheel and inspect.

[saddlebum]

5 hours ago, BlueSky said:

I'm no expert on these bikes but I think I would start on the rear by making sure the brake isn't sticking, not likely I'm thinking, and then pull the rear wheel and inspect.

the rear brake  is were I would start as well specially since it only locks when you pull the clutch in but will turn when you release the clutch and apply power. Generally if it locks up due to a drive line or transmission failure it stays locked up and whether the clutch is in or out would not make a difference.

Edited June 21, 2021 by saddlebum

[Pasta Burner]

9 hours ago, windrider1983 said:

It would start and idle normally, and rev normally, but dropping it into first or second immediately caused it to stall (instantaneously).

@windrider1983 when you got it to the side and you say dropping it into first or second or stalled immediately.  Do you mean with the clutch still pulled or trying to drive off?  That would help narrow down the brake path.

I didn’t get brake issue from your post, but I see where @saddlebum and @BlueSky are coming from if this only happens when trying to move.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Pasta Burner

[Marcarl]

30 minutes ago, saddlebum said:

the rear brake  is were I would start as well specially since it only locks when you pull the clutch in but will turn when you release the clutch and apply power. Generally if it locks up due to a drive line or transmission failure it stays locked up and whether the clutch is in or out would not make a difference.

Yep, put the washer in the wrong spot on the rear axle and what happens is that throws the caliper off and then you could have the issue of the piston not wanting to return easily, heat up and cause a rel drag. The other common issue is a plugged hole in the rear master cylinder which restricts the return of brake fluid after release and then cause heat build up on the caliper and pads and then lockup. It's a wee tiny little hole in the master that might be blocked.

[windrider1983]

Clarification - The rear wheel is not currently locked up. The bike is on the big stand and the rear wheel will turn. I can start the engine (in neutral of course), squeeze the clutch, and tap down into first or lift up into second, and the engine dies without ever releasing the clutch. 

[Marcarl]

It could be the u-joint at the rear of the transmission #s 14,15,16.. You can pull the boot back to have a peek. Other than that I would suggest it's internal in the tranny, possibly item #4. Try turning the rear wheel and take a listen to the shaft and tranny, see if there is anything noise at all.

[Pasta Burner]

How’s your oil level?  My 91 F150 did a similar scenario when it decided to leak all its gear oil out on the highway and took a tow truck ride home.  Different animal but worth checking.

[saddlebum]

18 hours ago, windrider1983 said:

Clarification - The rear wheel is not currently locked up. The bike is on the big stand and the rear wheel will turn. I can start the engine (in neutral of course), squeeze the clutch, and tap down into first or lift up into second, and the engine dies without ever releasing the clutch. 

Ok so you say the wheel turns in neutral. When it turns does it feel relatively smooth with no odd noises. If so than I would say the final drive. drive shaft, u-joints and rest of parts in the parts breakdown Marcal posted are OK.

With it in gear can you still turn the wheel with the clutch pulled in? from your description I am thinking you cannot, so my next move would be to check clutch operation. Start by making sure there is no air in the system. Then check to see if the master is actually functioning properly. It could be bypassing internally and not applying pressure to the slave. Check to see if you are loosing clutch fluid. The slave could be leaking internally and loosing fluid.

Drain engine oil into a clean container. Does the oil look normal or is there metal in the oil?

Remove  the clutch cover so you can observe the clutch while actuating the clutch lever. you should see movement between the discs. If not then you will have to see why.

Remove the Clutch. with the clutch removed and transmission in gear does the wheel now turn or is it still locked up. If still  locked up you may have to pull engine and get into the transmission to see what is going on.

Keep in mind this is all couch technique diagnostics If I had the bike in front of me I might take a different approach.

Edited June 22, 2021 by saddlebum

[larrydr]

2 hours ago, saddlebum said:

Ok so you say the wheel turns in neutral. When it turns does it feel relatively smooth with no odd noises. If so than I would say the final drive. drive shaft, u-joints and rest of parts in the parts breakdown Marcal posted are OK.

With it in gear can you still turn the wheel with the clutch pulled in? from your description I am thinking you cannot, so my next move would be to check clutch operation. Start by making sure there is no air in the system. Then check to see if the master is actually functioning properly. It could be bypassing internally and not applying pressure to the slave. Check to see if you are loosing clutch fluid. The slave could be leaking internally and loosing fluid.

Drain engine oil into a clean container. Does the oil look normal or is there metal in the oil?

Remove  the clutch cover so you can observe the clutch while actuating the clutch lever. you should see movement between the discs. If not then you will have to see why.

Remove the Clutch. with the clutch removed and transmission in gear does the wheel now turn or is it still locked up. If still  locked up you may have to pull engine and get into the transmission to see what is going on.

This may no be the answer to your problem , but what happened to me was I had the kick /side stand and center down and when I put it into gear the engine went dead .

That is what it is supposed to do ...The kick stand switch should shut the engine down when the bike goes into gear when the stand is down

[Marcarl]

I think it would be of interest to note that Mark noticed an extreme drag and slowdown on the hyway that started this episode.

[saddlebum]

7 hours ago, larrydr said:

This may no be the answer to your problem , but what happened to me was I had the kick /side stand and center down and when I put it into gear the engine went dead .

That is what it is supposed to do ...The kick stand switch should shut the engine down when the bike goes into gear when the stand is down

You do have a valid point but in my remarks, I (A) am taking the assumption that these items have already been checked and (B) the steps I am suggesting are done with the engine shut off which takes any electrical issues out of the equation and concentrates on the mechanical side of things.

Edited June 22, 2021 by saddlebum

[windrider1983]

One would think that after owning this bike for 27 years, I would instinctively know the most basic of the safety features - but give Larrydr a cupie doll - the kickstand WAS down and that was why it was shutting down when I was putting it in gear in the garage on the big stand (duh). The transmission seems fine now that I can put it in gear. But the brake is definitely hanging up - so the first and simplest diagnosis was the correct one - stuck brake. So now I just need to pull it apart and determine why. I replaced everything but the piston on the brake about 4 years ago but have not put a lot of miles on it since then (and all local travel) - and it has only been out twice this year until I got the speedo lubed up. The comment about the washer on the wrong spot on the rear axle makes me curious, though I thought I was pretty careful to put everything back the way I found it when i had the wheel off.  Thanks for all the thought you folks put into this and the suggestions.  Certainly a big relief that the transmission is not the culprit.   

[larrydr]

15 hours ago, saddlebum said:

You do have a valid point but in my remarks, I (A) am taking the assumption that these items have already been checked and (B) the steps I am suggesting are done with the engine shut off which takes any electrical issues out of the equation and concentrates on the mechanical side of things.

I did notice a noise in the transmission which may be caused a washer / spacer wearing thin near the second gear ..

I did notice some gear chance difficulty leaving the bike with no neutral

I did notice changing the gear position did help a bit .

I got to a long time retired Yamaha mechanic who knows the venture inside out

[saddlebum]

12 minutes ago, larrydr said:

I did notice a noise in the transmission which may be caused a washer / spacer wearing thin near the second gear ..

I did notice some gear chance difficulty leaving the bike with no neutral

I did notice changing the gear position did help a bit .

I got to a long time retired Yamaha mechanic who knows the venture inside out

Kind of brings you back to those multiple choice questions were the old saying is the first  guess is usually the right guess. Plus we all got to put our heads together and hone our diagnostic skills. Lastly glad you found the issue.

[larrydr]

17 hours ago, saddlebum said:

Kind of brings you back to those multiple choice questions were the old saying is the first  guess is usually the right guess. Plus we all got to put our heads together and hone our diagnostic skills. Lastly glad you found the issue.

 My venture has the punch mark after the engine number indicating that it has been done ,,,,My thinking there is still something that needs looking after..I need to make room in my shop for this kind of repair ..I have too finish installing a hydraulic arm lift to move the engine from bench to another.

[Squidley]

My 1st thing i would do, if you haven't already is take that rear brake master cylinder off. If it hasn't been cleaned or flush in several years, it can clog up the return orifice and will indeed lock the back brake up. That brake line is right by the exhaust and the heat will cause the brake fluid to expand, and if the return orifice is clogged it will apply the back caliper. I've had this happen to me on an 86 I had. A quick way to rectify it is take an 8mm wrench and break the bleeder screw loose to relieve the pressure.