'86 Royale shorted battery

[Terry NB]

Hello all, a newbie here.

I was a Happy owner of a new to me 86 venture royale

I started the bike and was going over the clutch handle switch as the bike would only start in neutral.

Between starting it a few times and fiddling with the clutch switch and the kill switch as well using the key....all of a sudden the bike went dead. 

Battery was fried. 

When moving around the bike..I ended up laying it on its side ever so gently in my garage. Had no damaged at all.

Now, new battery in....it starts....runs bad, especially under throttle.  I noticed the Tach wasn't registering correctly and the gear indicator showing  "N" was fading in and out as well.

I checked all fused and all are good.

Any of you wise folks have a idea of what's going on?

Thank you in advance

 

 

 

 

[Terry NB]

I should add that I have this bike since May and have driven it about 300 miles without any issue ..and it ran GREAT!

The only thing was that I had to put it in neutral to start.

[RDawson]

Are battery connections clean and tight?

[Marcarl]

Just now, RDawson said:

Are battery connections clean and tight?

Be sure to check the cable ends, give them a bit of a tug, if the come off you have found a problem. Been known to happen.

[Terry NB]

I will check the connection tomorrow....Thanks for your suggestion. I will let you know how it works out.

[larrydr]

I had a instance where the battery was about 1/2  charge and a boost would not turn the engine ..

After sometime spent on trying , I decided to skin the positive battery a 2  1/2 inches from the battery connector

The cable was full of green sulfate about 2 inches form the connector .

Clipped the jumper cable past the bad green sulfate on the cable and the motor  started instantly

 

[saddlebum]

Check and clean all your grounds as well and check the fuse holders in the fuse box unless it has been updated it still uses the glass fuses and the clips get corroded and weak. This results in loose fuses with poor contact between the fuses and the retaining clips. There is also a master fuse between the left side of the battery and the starting solenoid. this fuse uses a replaceable leaf type fuse and there may be some spare leafs in the holder of this fuse make sure it is still good with clean and secure connections.

Next you may want to disconnect inspect and clean all the connectors to the igniter unit as well as the contacts on the igniter unit itself. Abad connection here could effect the tach.

 

[Patch]

I started the bike and was going over the clutch handle switch as the bike would only start in neutral.

Between starting it a few times and fiddling with the clutch switch and the kill switch as well using the key...

1) all of a sudden the bike went dead. 

1) Battery was fried. 

1)Now, new battery in

1) it starts

1) runs bad,

1) especially under throttle

2) I noticed the Tach wasn't registering correctly

2) the gear indicator showing  "N" was fading in and out as well.

I checked all fused and all are good.

3) I ended up laying it on its side ever so gently in my garage

 

The order is changed as to make sense of what are most likely related to the problems.

The igniter unit is sensitive to voltage. It will defy logic if it is subject to swing voltages or resistance of any kind; this includes ground paths.

Just dealing with the 1’s for now: You will need a multi meter set to auto voltage, or 12 volts DC. The very first check you should perform is voltage out of the rectifier to the battery. The voltage should read less than 15 and more than 12.5.

If this is not the case quickly shut it down and I would not restart it until you correct following the members procedures and advice.

Next I am inserting a diagram of the electrical: I suggest you start formalizing yourself with it. Start with the legend study the position knowing in which position the drawing has placed the switching in.

Then turn your attention to the right hand side of the page and find the igniter box. As you see there are many wires sending signal to the logic of this unit. It is important that the connection plug is clean and that there is NO measurable resistance from the Black Pin on the plug to the frame!

Just off to the right side of the box you will see a wire color code Gy that is your Tach and fuel pump relay feed. It is fed off the #2RR coil Primary  so think about : it if there is a problem with the R/W wire in or the Primary Coil the will be NO Field to ignite the Secondary side or the Spark plug which is drawn in as the ground (far right).

That can also give you a poor running condition but, as I suggested you should first check the charging voltage.

As for the starting only in neutral there are other issues that make more sense to me when considering the Monitor unit is not showing other gears. For the moment and my opinion you have more pressing issues to tend to.

https://www.venturerider.org/wiring/86-89 Yamaha Venture Simplified Circuit Diagram Rev D.pdf

 

 

[Terry NB]

I am having a hard time remembering if I dropped it first and then the problems started. 

Or the problems started after

 I dropped it.

7 hours ago, Patch said:

I started the bike and was going over the clutch handle switch as the bike would only start in neutral.

Between starting it a few times and fiddling with the clutch switch and the kill switch as well using the key...

1) all of a sudden the bike went dead. 

1) Battery was fried. 

1)Now, new battery in

1) it starts

1) runs bad,

1) especially under throttle

2) I noticed the Tach wasn't registering correctly

2) the gear indicator showing  "N" was fading in and out as well.

I checked all fused and all are good.

3) I ended up laying it on its side ever so gently in my garage

 

The order is changed as to make sense of what are most likely related to the problems.

The igniter unit is sensitive to voltage. It will defy logic if it is subject to swing voltages or resistance of any kind; this includes ground paths.

Just dealing with the 1’s for now: You will need a multi meter set to auto voltage, or 12 volts DC. The very first check you should perform is voltage out of the rectifier to the battery. The voltage should read less than 15 and more than 12.5.

If this is not the case quickly shut it down and I would not restart it until you correct following the members procedures and advice.

Next I am inserting a diagram of the electrical: I suggest you start formalizing yourself with it. Start with the legend study the position knowing in which position the drawing has placed the switching in.

Then turn your attention to the right hand side of the page and find the igniter box. As you see there are many wires sending signal to the logic of this unit. It is important that the connection plug is clean and that there is NO measurable resistance from the Black Pin on the plug to the frame!

Just off to the right side of the box you will see a wire color code Gy that is your Tach and fuel pump relay feed. It is fed off the #2RR coil Primary  so think about : it if there is a problem with the R/W wire in or the Primary Coil the will be NO Field to ignite the Secondary side or the Spark plug which is drawn in as the ground (far right).

That can also give you a poor running condition but, as I suggested you should first check the charging voltage.

As for the starting only in neutral there are other issues that make more sense to me when considering the Monitor unit is not showing other gears. For the moment and my opinion you have more pressing issues to tend to.

https://www.venturerider.org/wiring/86-89 Yamaha Venture Simplified Circuit Diagram Rev D.pdf

 

 

 

[Terry NB]

13 hours ago, saddlebum said:

Next you may want to disconnect inspect and clean all the connectors to the igniter unit as well as the contacts on the igniter unit itself. Abad connection here could effect the tach.

After looking at the shop manual and a youtube video it appears to get to and remove and clean the igniter  (CDI I assume) I would have to remove the radiator, Air cleaner and Battery basket?

Is this correct?

[Terry NB]

15 hours ago, Marcarl said:

Be sure to check the cable ends, give them a bit of a tug, if the come off you have found a problem. Been known to happen.

Checked and ensured the positive and negative cables and ends are clean and tight ... Ignition fuse holder was a bit loose so I am using another fuse holder for now until I get this figured out. Then I will replace the fuse panel.

[Patch]

EH Terry, for the moment I don't read much concern over the drop. It is possible tho that a float jammed in one or more carbs as a result.

Have you ever planned a special date? Yaknow the evening has reached the end of the candle light, and the amber's still glow hot, a burning desire to mount up and ride thru the night with that special love in your life. Well its kind of like that see, she turns to you and says "oh not tonight I have such a migraine I just can't purr right now" well the charging system can just kill the mood too 

When the system has a short the crank struggles to overcome the AMPs working against it (10A is roughly 1 HP)(AMPs) meaning every 10 A is 1 hp working against the engine HP at a 1000 RPM.

"A stator that is shorted to ground may still produce full AC voltage from pin to pin. The problem with this is the rectifier changes the AC current to DC current and then uses the ground as one leg of the DC. When the stator shorts to ground the AC and DC get mixed together."

So don't take it personal, there'll be better days, she'll forget you dropped her, she'll purr again, and you will mount & ride soon, many a smiles yet to come 

Anyways worth testing

[Patch]

If I recall @cowpuc has a video on how to check the charging system.

Of course he likely forgot where he put it

[Pasta Burner]

I’m just throwing this out but have no personal experience.  Isn’t there a tip over switch?  Could that be something that got triggered and is maybe interfering?  If it ran great before the drop I’d think it’s a variable worth looking at.

[Terry NB]

I did read in the shop book that there is a switch that activates itself when tipping more that 60 deg. But I assumed if it did trip it must of corrected itself because the bike does start.

Maybe it did not properly reset 100%

Any one have experience with this switch and how it works? 

[Pasta Burner]

1 hour ago, Terry NB said:

I did read in the shop book that there is a switch that activates itself when tipping more that 60 deg. But I assumed if it did trip it must of corrected itself because the bike does start.

Maybe it did not properly reset 100%

Any one have experience with this switch and how it works? 

That was my thought exactly.  For a switch that is hopefully never used it obviously isn’t exercised and would likely be gummed up.  Possibly giving intermittent results.  Again just a thought.

[Pasta Burner]

As for your clutch switch…mine (87) was only starting in N as well but just a few days ago I broke and fixed that problem.  The switch has a spring actuated plunger activated my the clutch handle that was gummed up and not working.  I took mine apart to clean. THIS IS IMPORTANT, inside the switch was pristine clean.  I added some contact grease because I had it open but it was like factory inside.  THE HOUSING BROKE DURING REASSEMBLY.  So that sux.  My point is start with some lubricant external and working the switch plunger before taking it apart.  Here is an unrelated titled thread that gets you to where I ended up a few days ago.  Oh also now the the clutch  lever switch is “fixed” it’s really not, there is a gnats hair movement that will either let it start in gear or not, but these are the things that come with 30+ yo machines 

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Pasta Burner

[Patch]

So a long, long time ago we had a trouble shoot match with a fellow called @bongobobny anyways I was sure it was the tip switch but, the bike eventually started and ran for a couple years then guess what, the OP wrote in to tell us that he finally had to change the switch because; it started happening again.......lol

So the switch is a kill switch, you can see it on the diagram I posted (by memory top left side with the other switches)

[Patch]

Just a couple of comments: 

I think it was 86 when they brought in the stand safety switch, it really is a good idea but also it is exposed to harsh conditions.

The clutch switches do often fail due to the cycles they are exposed to. One of my old bikes was very problematic with the darn thing so I replaced it with a hydraulic switch. Having said that and have had an 86 MKll all I did was clean it and used plumbers grease for lube and water resistance.

But Terry, personally I would first check the charging system. Knowing that the battery went bad and that it is running rough points to the potential of a short. 

reread the underlined  segment from post 12:

"A stator that is shorted to ground may still produce full AC voltage from pin to pin. The problem with this is the rectifier changes the AC current to DC current and then uses the ground as one leg of the DC.

When the stator shorts to ground the AC and DC get mixed together."

If you are not sure how to check or set your multi meter just ask 

@Pasta Burner  nice to see you supporting the thread 👍

[Terry NB]

Well I started my troubleshooting. 

New plugs. No fire to the right side cyl. So I am going to check the coils (what an SOB to get to).

I chose to go from the top instead of removing the radiator.

I got the battery and battery box out. Got the fairing loose on both sides. Got the 2 bolts on the right off.....Got one off the other side. But the second bold is hiding behind this piece and I cannot get to it....and I noticed q green connector that did not appear to connect anywhere. 

[Pasta Burner]

@Terry NB I’m not sure what your intending to show in the pics, I don’t recall a green connector (mine had a decent amount of aftermarket tinkering that I had to undo).  To add to what @Patch said about stator issues and testing I had a battery drain issue last year that left me stuck for a few moments, I ended up soldering the wires from the stator to regulator rectifier and eliminating the connector to solve the problem.  Here’s a link to that.  I’m not familiar with the computer yet, but if the entire right side won’t fire it maybe points to a CDI issue.  SOMEONE Please make sure I’m not advising wrong.

 

 

[Terry NB]

The throttle cable housing is directly in front on the last of the 4 bolts holding the coil packs...cdi etc. 

I will try and reach it with a wrench.

 

I assumed my next step would be to test coils...plug wires....igniter box cdi etc.

[Patch]

So the coils don't fail often but often the wiring becomes a fault.

My experience is to measure the voltage to the coils, it should be close to the battery voltage reading.

Next to measure the resistance of the coils page 7-38

Assuming the coils check out then and because there is one bank or side not firing, check the "pickup coils" for resistance page 7-39 or 7-36 describing the connector and the sets you measure.

On page 7-37 you will find a layout of the ignition system modules. B are the pickup coils. As you read thru the pages there is a comment on AC reversing course. We still have not heard back about checking the charging system.

Remember that each connector should be clean and inspected.

Finally remember that all switch there is done thru ground so check that each ground has a clean path to the grounding points. There are 2 way we usually check this one is reading the resistance or better yet is to light test the path by connect one end to the positive battery terminal ant the light probe to the ground you need to check. This is load testing that means it proves that the ground is solid and true.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Patch

[circa1968]

On 6/15/2021 at 10:38 AM, Patch said:

Have you ever planned a special date? Yaknow the evening has reached the end of the candle light, and the amber's still glow hot, a burning desire to mount up and ride thru the night with that special love in your life. Well its kind of like that see, she turns to you and says "oh not tonight I have such a migraine I just can't purr right now" well the charging system can just kill the mood too 

"Are you married?"  Fixed it, fewer words

[Patch]

Problem child 1968, are you picking on my English?

And NO I ride one up, don't stick around long enough to make the same mistake twice