Solved thanx! !HELP! 87 VR Won't turn over. Bike stuck at work. I got a ride home.

[Pasta Burner]

So I rode to work this morning with no issues mechanically or electrically enjoying even listening to the radio DJs speak clearly at highway speeds with my new Kicker 4" speakers.  (I mention this mainly as a possible variable in my dilemma, also AWESOME upgrade!).  I go to leave work today and Nothing when I hit the start button.  The radio still came on, the dash did it's checks and only the kickstand warning was correctly on, fuel pump clicked and I heard the relay exersize when switched to run, but NOTHING when hitting the start button.  To note, the start button felt a little sticky or not smooth the first push or two.

I located what I "Think" is the starter (above oil filter on front of engine running side to side?) and gave it a few raps with 3/8 extension and a ball hammer, did this a few times but no luck.  I attempted to take the switch apart but didn't know how to access the switch part of the assembly, I removed two screws one upper and one lower which released the throttle and the start/stop switch was visible on the top side but couldn't get to the bottom start under the cruise.

For shits and giggles we hooked up some jumper cables figuring we'd feel stupid not at least trying but that had no effect.  Voltage indicator was sitting above half way with and without cables. with cables detached I asked my coworker if the headlight dimmed when I pressed the button and he indicated the headlight wasn't lit.  it was very hard to see as it was of course facing the sun, but to me appeared unlit too, I don't know if it was lit on the way in.  Voltage meter did not drop when button pushed.

Checked all fuses and did not find any faults visually.

Triple checked to make sure it was in neutral even cycled through some gears.  Tried with kickstand down and up.

So my initial thinking is Starter switch or faulty kickstand switch.  How do I disassemble the assembly to access the starter switch?

@cowpuc I now KNOW firsthand when you say you'd rather fix the problem than spend time and energy removing the shiny bits!  this is why I only think I found the starter.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Pasta Burner

[rbig1]

well first thing i though of is has it had the ignition switch relay bypass upgrade.  there would be a little relay under the tank.  this is a second gen correct.  the start relay is buy the battery if im remembering correct two lugs will by pass all and should start to get ya home if relay is bad.  if the switch bypass relay is wired correct should be able to unplug and plug the two ends together witch puts all the power back through the switch.  just make sure and get a new relay and put it back in unless you want to repair the ignition switch in the future.  windy i is....

[rbig1]

i spoke to soon its a 87.  trace the positive battery to starter relay and jump across the two big terminals.  just make sure its in neutral

  

[cimmer]

Did you try and put the kick stand up and have it in neutral and see if the kick stand down indicator went out. It is possible that the safety neutral switch on the clutch lever is not working properly so starting it in gear with the kick stand down wouldnt let the bike turn over.  That would be the first thing I would check out. 

Good luck and let us know what happens.

Rick F.

[Pasta Burner]

42 minutes ago, cimmer said:

Did you try and put the kick stand up and have it in neutral and see if the kick stand down indicator went out. It is possible that the safety neutral switch on the clutch lever is not working properly so starting it in gear with the kick stand down wouldnt let the bike turn over.  That would be the first thing I would check out. 

Good luck and let us know what happens.

Rick F.

I didn’t notice if the kickstand indicator went away when I put it up, but it didn’t respond up or down in neutral.  
You do inspire a good question…and also confuse me a little.  All of these interlocks are new to me so bear with me.  What would the clutch lever have to do with the kickstand?

also on a clutch lever switch note, there is one? and where?  I think you may be on to something.  If the kickstand is UP and the bike is IN gear and the clutch is pulled in should the bike start?

I thought it used it but recently it will only start if the trans is in neutral.

also I’m  just putting this out as I’ve noticed very recently I’m getting intermittent neutral indications weather it’s green light or N on dash, is that normal?.  I’m used to this with my Duc so I thought nothing of it, but my Duc has no interlock.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Pasta Burner

[RDawson]

Yes it should start stand up, in gear, clutch pulled. Switch is at end of lever, it should start in neutral regardless of clutch switch. Same with side stand. 

[Pasta Burner]

26 minutes ago, RDawson said:

Yes it should start stand up, in gear, clutch pulled. Switch is at end of lever, it should start in neutral regardless of clutch switch. Same with side stand. 

This makes me think two issues. Clutch switch problem, but still start button switch problem.  We’ll play with it at work tomorrow.  One of my customer/ coworkers lives a block away so regardless we can truck it home tomorrow. luckily my building is an old WW2 warehouse that has railroad loading docks and concrete ramp so it’ll be an even load into the truck, and she’s safe on base overnight.

[saddlebum]

Make sure it is neutral than locate the start solenoid left of the battery. Bridge the two big terminals on the solenoid (this bypasses all the safe guards and switches etc involved with the starter circuit) and you are putting power directly from the battery to the starter. If the starter still will not crank you likely have a bad starter or a bad ground. If it does crank over than you should be able to ride the bike home. Then you need to check all switches wiring and relays related to the starting circuit.

Edited June 9, 2021 by saddlebum

[Pasta Burner]

Thanks all!  I’ll keep you posted on how I make out chasing the issue.  Pop started it this morning and got it home.  Headlight still not coming on, I know it was working during the speaker install because I was messing with the adjustment.  Bypassing the interlocks to the starter sounds like a good place to start then work my way back.

[luvmy40]

The head light not working points to the start button. I ran into that with both my '83 and my '86, though it did not keep me from starting. I'd still bet the starter not engaging and the light being inop. are connected at the start button contacts.

[Pasta Burner]

4 hours ago, luvmy40 said:

The head light not working points to the start button. I ran into that with both my '83 and my '86, though it did not keep me from starting. I'd still bet the starter not engaging and the light being inop. are connected at the start button contacts.

How in the world do you get the switch assembly apart!  It’s stuck to the throttle cables and I can’t figure out how to detach 

[Pasta Burner]

[Pasta Burner]

Ok I found this thread.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Pasta Burner

[Pasta Burner]

So the start switch was certainly the issue with the no start.  Gonna have to source a new one, it’s cleaned and working now.  Still stumped on the lack of headlight.  I’m getting 1.23v low and 2.21v high beam. Even swapped in a spare bulb.  Checked fuse and swapped it too for good measure.  Headlight fault doesn’t trigger either but does when bulb is unplugged.  

[Pasta Burner]

Ok figured that out too with this thread.  Still start switch.  Woooohooo!  Fixing and keeping these things on the road is pretty fun!

 

[Pasta Burner]

8 hours ago, luvmy40 said:

The head light not working points to the start button. I ran into that with both my '83 and my '86, though it did not keep me from starting. I'd still bet the starter not engaging and the light being inop. are connected at the start button contacts.

Thanks @luvmy40 this really ended up being the starting point after all due to your posting this.  It was the smoking gun.  I still need to chase the left side clutch switch issue that @RDawson mentioned.  But for the night I’ve had my fun chasing gremlins and enjoying beers in the garage.  I can sleep easy now knowing the problem is identified.  Thanks also to @dingy for the thorough write up!

[RDawson]

Look close at the clutch switch housing. Mine on my 86 was cracked and let the switch move just enough the lever couldn’t engage it. 

[luvmy40]

Great news!

When my light quit the first time, I was afraid that it was that aux. lighting module. In my case, some contact cleaner and a little synthetic grease and I was golden.

[Pasta Burner]

On 6/9/2021 at 8:45 PM, RDawson said:

Look close at the clutch switch housing. Mine on my 86 was cracked and let the switch move just enough the lever couldn’t engage it. 

Thanks!  What you’d think was an easy fix turned into what you had.  Mine was not cracked just gunked up and the spring wasn’t pushing the plunger efficiently.  Cleaned it up greased it and the housing cracked like you described when reassembling.  So now it’s held together with electrical tape zip ties to hold the tape when it gets hot and gummy.  It’s crude but it works.

[RDawson]

I hate to admit it but I hot wired mine. It now starts in gear without pulling clutch. Got my cruise working though.

[saddlebum]

7 minutes ago, RDawson said:

I hate to admit it but I hot wired mine. It now starts in gear without pulling clutch. Got my cruise working though.

Sooo Bike starts in gear, Cruise works. If we see a riderless bike go by, I guess we can assume you forgot to get on

Edited June 11, 2021 by saddlebum

[Marcarl]

47 minutes ago, RDawson said:

I hate to admit it but I hot wired mine. It now starts in gear without pulling clutch. Got my cruise working though.

Can you fix the key as well,, makes it easier for me when I need it and you are napping.

[Pasta Burner]

2 hours ago, RDawson said:

I hate to admit it but I hot wired mine. It now starts in gear without pulling clutch. Got my cruise working though.

Well lemmi say this, there are certain things in life you only do once.  Trusting the neutral light in my Duc is one of them.  Now it’s become muscle memory to pull the clutch when starting, then hold the brake when releasing the clutch.  
 

At least now if you run out of gas you can get a few more miles driving it on the starter

[BlueSky]

All these "safety" features can be irritating at times.  How did I survive to be 77, starting with no seat belts, no steering wheel locks, no neutral switches...?  I don't remember my first bike, a 71 Honda CB350 having any interlocks.  

My riding lawn mower started blowing fuses so I bypassed the safety interlocks one by one trying to find the short.  I had to be seated with the brake depressed, and the blades off to start it.  Then if I backed up the engine shut off.  That thing is so much more of a pleasure to use now with those interlocks bypassed.  By the way the short was in the device below the carb bowl that supposedly shuts off the fuel to prevent backfiring when the engine is shut down.  I defeated it too because a new one cost about $80 and it wasn't effective anyway.  

[RDawson]

4 hours ago, Marcarl said:

Can you fix the key as well,, makes it easier for me when I need it and you are napping.

Key hasn’t been pulled out of that bike in years. It also hasn’t had a battery last couple years so good luck.