Hard Start,Rough Idle

[RustyRecycledToy]

So last week I washed the bike a work. Fired it up and rode block down the street to fill up the tank. As I pulled up to the pump the idle got rough, dropped to about 600 and eventually died.

 

i ended up pushing it to one of my employers other building. After 4 hours of trying to get it to run I gave up and left it for the night. Occasionally I would get it to fire, but it would never idle right nor would it idle over 300RPM.

 

Next day, after work it fired up and idled. I could even twist the throttle and rev the engine. Shut it down, change the plugs. After changing the plugs, it idled smooth. The throttle was crisp. I went ahead and rode it the 70 miles home. It ran great! I did notice at idle it smelled rich though.

 

Fast forward to today. I wander out to the shop to take the scoot for a ride. Hit the starter. It cranks for a few seconds then fires. idle was REALLY low. Let it idle for a couple of minutes and it dies. Now it won't start again.

 

Anybody got any suggestions where to start?

 

Thanks,

Ed

[GeorgeS]

Drain the Fuel Tank. Remove the Hose at the PetCock. drain it Dry.

 

Drain all 4 Carb Bowls,

 

Replace the fuel filter.

 

Run some HEET in some New Gas.

 

After you get it running, put in a Can of SEA-FOAM, Fuel System Cleaner.

[Marcarl]

Drain the Fuel Tank. Remove the Hose at the PetCock. drain it Dry.

 

Drain all 4 Carb Bowls,

 

Replace the fuel filter.

 

Run some HEET in some New Gas.

 

After you get it running, put in a Can of SEA-FOAM, Fuel System Cleaner.

Diddo

[RustyRecycledToy]

OK, Well that got me zero results.

 

I have a new thought to throw into the mix here.

 

After the fuel filter,draining and refilling the tank,and losing roughly a days pay onto the floor before I could get a hose run from the fuel tank to the gas can got me no results I had a thought.

 

I disconnected the fuel line at the pump on the 'out' side. I turned on the key and got one (yes, one) little spurt of fuel and that was it.

Are these fuel pumps supposed to run constantly or just 'as needed'.

Right now, I'm thinking my fuel pump may be suspect here. Unless I am missing something else. Is there a fuel pump relay somewhere?

 

Thoughts? Ideas?

[hipshot]

ed, i don't know about with the "out" line being disconnected, but on my 86, it only runs for a couple of seconds. then you have to turn the key off, and back on to make it fill the drained bowls.

could be , that your new fuel filter is empty, or maybe air locked.

i really can't say.

just jt

[mraf]

The wiring diagram shows a relay for the fuel pump. Blue/something wire runs to it. Picture is not to clear to read all of color code for wires. Never had a fuel pump problem myself so can't answer how long pump will run on "out" side. Someone should chime in with the answer eventually.

[Dano]

Pump will run for 5 seconds without a spark signal return to the TCI. The pump should squirt across the room for that 5 seconds IF it's getting fuel thru the petcock then through the filter. Make sure your filter is installed in the correct direction, before reinstalling I would hold the open end over a can, turn on the petcock valve (I know, you need 2 people for this and a pair of pliers!) and check flow thru the filter. If this is good, reconnect to fuel line to pump, turn key on and check flow, making sure there is not a kink or tight bend in the line up to the carbs. DOn't know what the pressure is supposed to be, but I know it's a diaphragm type pump and not a rotary (like the water pump), so it may be high volume, low pressure. Therefore, a kink in the line may stop the flow. How long is the pump running when you get the squirt? As b4, should be at least 5 seconds.

Hope this helps

Dan

[GeorgeS]

There is a Pressure Switch, inside of the Fuel pump.

 

Reconnect the hose, and open the Drain lines from the carb bowls. One at a time,

then turn Key to ON, and pump should run fuel thru the Drain line of each Carb bowl.

 

Run fuel thru each bowl for 5 to 10 min. Be sure to have SEA Foam in the fuel.

 

Ok, well now you know you got clean fuel. So time to start looking Elsewhere for your main problem.

 

Not fuel, not plugs, ?????

 

Several other--- possibilities -----

 

1. Dirty plugs on the TCI. ( 2 large plugs ) Pull Plugs and clean them

 

2. Bad connection in the Plug from the Pick up Coils, that goes to the TCI.

 

3. Plug between Stator, and the Regulator/Rectifier unit, open it, clean it check it for high resistance, might be dragging down the voltage.

 

4. Maby high Resistance Across the Ignition Switch " ON Off " contacts.

Or, high resistance across the " Run - Stop " Switch. This would lower the voltage going to the Ignition Coil Primary Windings.

 

Use Electrical Contact Cleaner on all the Switches.

 

 

5. You might have to Pull out your TCI, open it, and heat it in Oven at about 110 deg. F. for couple hours to dry out moisture, that " Might " be inside of it.

 

this is a fairly common problem on the 1st Gen bikes.

 

6. Find your 40 AMP main fuse holder, open it, and check for loose screws, 2 #1 plillips head screws, that hold fuse element in place, They can come loose, dropping voltage to entire system. ( Rare, but can happen )

 

 

You might need a new set of Carb Diaphrams,

 

You might need to tear down the Carbs. and Give them a good cleaning.

[Condor]

Just a thought. It still sounds like it's fuel related. After you let it sit it will fire and run. Start it again and it starts loosing R's and then dies. There's a fine mesh screen filter around the pitcock pickup inside the tank. It may be clogged, and only letting a small amount of fuel to get through it. After sitting for a while there's enough fuel seeping past to the fuel pump to get the bike running. After a bit the fuel pump runs out of gas, and the engine starts to idle rough and then dies. Then nothing. I'd drain the tank, dump in a can of Sea Foam, and about a quart of gas, and let it sit 24hrs. Add 2-3 more gallons to dilute the Sea Foam mix and then try to start. You can also toggle the run/stop and it will make the fuel pump run for 5 seconds or up to pressure. I'd also check your inline filter to see if it's clogged up. Again, just a thought.....

[Dano]

Just throwing this out there, if the fuel pump is not running (just a spurt, that was it-quote), you might check the lead for the fuel pump. The connector is hidden between the left rear frame and in front of the gas tank where the Rectifier/Regulator wires run. It is squeezed in behind 2 other cables, pull those out of the way ( there is a cable clamp there, pull it off). The connector is a translucent plastic with a blue and a black wire running through it.

BTW, the other connector is the kickstand connection.

Edited May 29, 2008 by Dano
Added kickstand

[RustyRecycledToy]

Lots of good thoughts and ideas so far. Thanks!

 

There is a Pressure Switch, inside of the Fuel pump.

 

Wouldn't this pressure switch tell the pump to run when the outgoing fuel line is disconnected? ie, no pressure building up in a disconnected line?

 

5. You might have to Pull out your TCI, open it, and heat it in Oven at about 110 deg. F. for couple hours to dry out moisture, that " Might " be inside of it.

 

 

 

I was using a pressure washer to get the bugs off the fairing & windscreen.Everything was great till then. It hasn't run right since.

 

 

You might need a new set of Carb Diaphrams

 

They are all new.

 

Just a thought. It still sounds like it's fuel related.

Me too, although I'm leaning towards a lack of fuel.

 

After you let it sit it will fire and run

At 300 RPM for about 60 seconds max.

 

You can also toggle the run/stop and it will make the fuel pump run for 5 seconds or up to pressure. I'd also check your inline filter to see if it's clogged up. Again, just a thought.....

 

It's a good thought. I had the same one. I'm not getting that initial 5 second pump. It does give me that pump about 1 time in 40 with the 'out' line disconnected. I've replaced the filter,drained and replaced the gas. I can disconnect the 'in' line from the pump and fuel flows freely through the filter into a gas can. With that knowledge I think I can eliminate everything up to the pump.

 

you might check the lead for the fuel pump

 

I'll check the voltage going to that plug when I get home from work tonight and post the results.

 

 

Thanks for all the great suggestions and ideas so far, keep 'em coming. It's great having so many different people helping to brainstorm this.

[Gearhead]

The fact that it started after a wash makes me think electrical, water in the TCI connections, either at the TCI under the battery or in the connection near your LH calf behind the side panel. But that is often accompanied by the tach acting weird, and your bike has had plenty of time to dry out.

 

That said, your fuel pump is not acting normal. The pressure switch stop at high pressure only; the pump itself will pump forever with the line open. The circuitry in the relay and control system only allows the 5 seconds though, with the bike not running.

 

Let me clarify. The pump controller gets voltage when the key and kill switch are on. It also gets a signal from the TCI that tells it if the engine is running. When the key or kill switch is turned on, if the engine is not running, it turns on the pump relay for 5 seconds and then turns it off. This is intended to top off the bowls as you start the bike. Once the engine is running, the controller turns the relay on and leaves it on.

 

The pressure switch is contained within the pump assy, consisting of a set of contact points connected to the pump diaphragm. If the carb needles are closed (bowls full) and some amount of backpressure builds in the fuel line, the diaphragm doesn't return to it's stop and the points don't make contact. As the bike uses fuel and the pressure gets released into the carbs, the diaphragm returns to the stop, points make contact, and diaphragm does another stroke.

 

So, the pump will (or should) run with zero backpressure. You must either have inconsistent power to the pump or the pressure switch is not working right. Your voltage check to the pump will tell you which. If it's the pump itself, remove the cap off the wire end and see if you can spot the problem. On my Virago I had the points get rusty. Filing them fixed the problem.

 

Jeremy

[Squeeze]

The Pump on my Max (same Beast as the Venture's Pump) stopped working one Time i had it on the Lift and working on other Areas. Couldn't get it working until i pushed the Wires into the Pump Housing. Then it started working like it should and never has left me since.

[RustyRecycledToy]

So here's the latest.

 

Went out to the shop to check voltages to the pump. Hook up volt meter to the incoming end of the plug. Turn on the key and i get 10.82 volts for a few seconds then it cycles off. Hmmmm.......10.8 volts on a freshly charged 2 week old battery. That seems odd to me. Shoulda checked the voltage at the battery as well but i didn't. I'll do it tomorrow.

 

Plugged the pump back in and turned on the key. NOTHING.

 

Got the bright idea to apply an outside 12v source to the pump directly. So I did.

 

At first it didn't do anything, then it slowly started pumping,and pumping,and pumping,and pumping and then a wisp of smoke. OOPS.

 

So I unhook the power. Pump stops. Obviously.

 

So, being the glutton for punishment that I am, I hook it back up. Pump fires back up and pumps and pumps and pumps and pumps, then it finally achieves pressure and stops.

 

Out of morbid couriosity I plug the pump back in to the harness and hit the starter button.

 

Guess what...............The thing actually started. Not only did it start, at ran. Twist throttle, RPMs jump. Let it sit long enough for the temp to come up to normal and even checked the sync on the carbs while I was at it. Figured may as well, it was running and I wanted to see if it was going to starve out of fuel.

 

It didn't.

 

Now, do i think it's fixed? NO! Right now I'm not very trusting of it. I want to know more about that low voltage, and before i go commuting 70 miles to work with the chance of getting stuck that far from home, I'll take it on a few short rides and see what happens. In the mean time, I've got one or two more things i want a peak at.

 

Anybody got any thoughts?

[Condor]

At first it didn't do anything, then it slowly started pumping,and pumping,and pumping,and pumping and then a wisp of smoke. OOPS.

 

So I unhook the power. Pump stops. Obviously.

 

So, being the glutton for punishment that I am, I hook it back up. Pump fires back up and pumps and pumps and pumps and pumps, then it finally achieves pressure and stops.

 

For a pump to pump that long that it starts to smoke, and them takes a while before it finally reaches pressure, the pump isn't getting an adiquate amount of gas. I refer back to my first suggestion. Somewhere between the tank and the pump you have a blockage. Your remark about it not starving...reserve that for a ride when fuel consuption goes up. These things could probably idle an hour on a cup fuel.

[Dano]

My thoughts are with the fuel pump.

Where did smoke appear from?

Were the wires getting hot at the connector when you jumped 12 volts to it?

Did you check for the pump running while the motor was running?

Concern I have is when you first jumped it and it was going slowly, the possible high amperage that was going through there, evidenced by the wisp of smoke. Could lead to damaged windings in the pump.

 

[Squeeze]

I think the Motor of the Pump was stuck. This is a Diaphragm Style Pump, which doesn't make much of Pressure, but only Volume.

 

Like Dan, i'd suspect the Pump at the Moment and wouldn't trust her far.

 

 

The lower Voltage at the Pigtail could be bad Connection on the Fuel Pump Relay, bad Contacts inside the Fuel Pump Relay and/or bad Connection on the Fuse or a weak Battery.

[Gearhead]

Pull the cap off the end of the pump and check out the contact points. Corrosion there could cause flaky operation and smoke. It might be that a good filing and a little grease on things will make it good as new!

 

Jeremy

[RustyRecycledToy]

It is most definitely the fuel pump. No doubt about it.

 

Anybody got one laying around they need to part with?

[Dano]

I'ld give you mine, but then I couldn't ride!!

Somebody will come up up with one somewhere. Be patient. There might even be one on ebay, there's a couple of guys parting bikes out. Send a PM to HessforLess (member here), I think he's one of them.

 

Dan

[woz111]

If I were you I'd take the pump off altogether, clamp the fuel line from the tank to the pump so you don't waste any gas first. Take the pump apart, bit by bit cleaning or replacing parts as required, if the pump has a rubber diaphragm it may need replacing/repairing? Worth a look as you've nothing to loose, the pump seems to be the fault so I'd have a look at it.

[RustyRecycledToy]

If I were you I'd take the pump off altogether, clamp the fuel line from the tank to the pump so you don't waste any gas first. Take the pump apart, bit by bit cleaning or replacing parts as required, if the pump has a rubber diaphragm it may need replacing/repairing? Worth a look as you've nothing to loose, the pump seems to be the fault so I'd have a look at it.

 

 

You know, I took the pump apart last night and cleaned everything I could find to clean. In my honest opinion, even if it had started working I would have still thrown it away. I just can't trust it. I commute 140 miles per day. I have enough things on my mind as it is dodging cagers. I don't need to constantly be worrying about whether or not the fuel pump is going to die on me again.

 

I'm just gonna replace it and (hopefully) be done with it.

Does anybody know if a fuel pump for a 1200 is the same?

[RustyRecycledToy]

:bang head: Well aint this a kick in the seat of the pants!?!

 

I walked out to the shop this morning to grab a couple of tools to take to work with me. As I walked past the VR I decided (for grins) to turn on the key and see if the fuel pump had fixed itself yet. IT DID!

 

That's right, I turned on the key and the pump ran for a few seconds then quit. Tried it again, same result, again, same. 20 times out of 20 it cycled the pump.

 

Now I don't know what to do. I want my VR back on the road, but i don't trust it. I'm thinking I may hook everything back up an take it for a short ride, see how it acts. But I'm still looking for another fuel pump.

[woz111]

Get a new pump, they can't be that expensive, can they??? I have seen them 2nd hand on eBay, if you buy 2nd hand you must remember that your buying a pump that's 20+ years, does anyone know if you can get a reconditioned unit?