Pains me to consider...

[saddlebum]

11 hours ago, JFootman said:

Quick update. Went out to try and take video of the bike starting and running. Wouldn't start until I remembered it was in or in between gears so pulled clutch while starting. Starter engaged and lunged forward a bit despite full pull of clutch. Turned off and tried again but same result. Gear indicator showed 4th (as opposed to blank last night). Let it sit & tried again with no lurch. Remarkably was able to keep clutch pulled and shifted into neutral. Wouldn't go into first until I shut her off & did the "Puk Rock" and dropped into first after running back up through the gears.

I think I'm going to pull the clutch tonight or tomorrow. Welcome any words of wisdom & insight!

 

Just for some insight I ran into a similar issue with a transport truck. The customer had a new clutch installed Picked up his truck from the shop were he had it done and all was fine. Next morning when it was cold his clutch would not disengage until the truck was well warmed up. Since he was already falling behind on his time sensitive load he continued to run until he got to our shop after delivering his load.

When I pulled his clutch out I found the shop that installed the new clutch assembly and flywheel failed to wash of the thick waxy grease like coating that coated the metal parts to protect them from rust while in storage. After its first heating up this gunk became almost glue like each time it cooled down but would soften when the clutch assembly warmed up.

So if you remove the clutch pack I would suggest thoroughly cleaning all the disks with brake clean and then after a good cleaning, soak the friction discs (preferably over night though an hour should suffice) in good engine oil before re-installing them.

Edited May 28, 2021 by saddlebum

[Woody]

21 hours ago, JFootman said:

I used Rotella conventional 15w-40, @Woody. I found a number of posts recommending this but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a definite consensus. As I indicated the oil was remarkably dark for less than 2 weeks old and minimal mileage. Will probably do another oil change once I get her up and running (IF I do!). What do you guys recommend?

The reason I was asking is some oil's do not play well with these bikes. I think I used Rotella T6 in my 2nd gen. it was just a thought 

[JFootman]

1 hour ago, Woody said:

The reason I was asking is some oil's do not play well with these bikes. I think I used Rotella T6 in my 2nd gen. it was just a thought 

Thx. @Woody. At this point I’m willing to consider anything! Just puzzled why it turned black so quickly. Once I get her up and running again I’m going to change it out.

So I’m going to pull the clutch and basket after lunch. I’ll take pics and see what everyone thinks. Other than visually inspecting the pins, anything else obvious I should be looking for?

[cowpuc]

14 hours ago, JFootman said:

Quick update. Went out to try and take video of the bike starting and running. Wouldn't start until I remembered it was in or in between gears so pulled clutch while starting. Starter engaged and lunged forward a bit despite full pull of clutch. Turned off and tried again but same result. Gear indicator showed 4th (as opposed to blank last night). Let it sit & tried again with no lurch. Remarkably was able to keep clutch pulled and shifted into neutral. Wouldn't go into first until I shut her off & did the "Puk Rock" and dropped into first after running back up through the gears.

I think I'm going to pull the clutch tonight or tomorrow. Welcome any words of wisdom & insight!

Here's a video walk-around for anyone wanting to offer their $0.02 on the validity of ~65k miles.

 

Darn right,, she is a beauty!! Definitely worth digging into, sorting it out and sucking all the life left in her out J!! I see some awesome miles of fun sitting right there. From what I can see of the brake rotors, grip wear (I LOVE those original grips!!) and foot peg wear she sure looks like a gorgeous low mile bike to me... Worth fighting for for sure!! Thanks for the vid!!

[cowpuc]

57 minutes ago, JFootman said:

Thx. @Woody. At this point I’m willing to consider anything! Just puzzled why it turned black so quickly. Once I get her up and running again I’m going to change it out.

So I’m going to pull the clutch and basket after lunch. I’ll take pics and see what everyone thinks. Other than visually inspecting the pins, anything else obvious I should be looking for?

Did you drain the old oil out of the forward bevel gear housing when you changed oil J?  If not, and depending on how dirty the previous oil was, it is possible for that dirty oil to darken the fresh oil some.  

[JFootman]

1 minute ago, cowpuc said:

Did you drain the old oil out of the forward bevel gear housing when you changed oil J?  If not, and depending on how dirty the previous oil was, it is possible for that dirty oil to darken the fresh oil some.  

No, @cowpuc I didn't. I pulled the drain plug & the oil filter and replaced. While I can see the bubble in the sight window, I definitely can't see through the oil. Can't be more than 20 miles since the change. I double checked & it was Rotella T4 15w-40. Honestly I was hoping someone would tell me "THAT'S IT! YOU USED THE WRONG OIL!" And all my woes would be over....

[cowpuc]

1 hour ago, JFootman said:

Thx. @Woody. At this point I’m willing to consider anything! Just puzzled why it turned black so quickly. Once I get her up and running again I’m going to change it out.

So I’m going to pull the clutch and basket after lunch. I’ll take pics and see what everyone thinks. Other than visually inspecting the pins, anything else obvious I should be looking for?

Several things come to mind, I would mic up the clutch plates, check the basket for any sign of saw toothing, check the pressure plate springs for spec.. Then, if the shift drum mechanism inspection and correction proves out to be the cause of your tranny issues I would rebuild the clutch entirely if it appears OEM.. These 1st Gens came from Yamaha at right on the edge of being adequate right from the factory.. If it were mine I would at a minimum have updated pressure plate springs in her before I put the cover back on the clutch and buttoned her up.. Another point to ponder in all this,,, remember that these bikes are oil bath clutch systems..  When trying to start up cold and in gear with the clutch pulled in, the oil between the clutch plates is still thick and will cause some clutch drag resistance on the starter as it trys to move the bike forward by transfering power to the rear wheel.  Doing a start up in gear with the clutch pulled in while the bike is hot is one thing,, trying that same procedure on a cold motor with thick oil is a whole nuther matter... Look forward to those pics!! Puc

 

Oh,, almost forgot,,, dont just look at pins,, check ALL the components associated with the shift drum rotation mechanism while there.. I have actually discovered a loose screw on the mount plate or a broken spring on a cam follower to produce the same issues you are experiencing.. Look er over real good!

Edited May 28, 2021 by cowpuc

[cowpuc]

6 minutes ago, JFootman said:

No, @cowpuc I didn't. I pulled the drain plug & the oil filter and replaced. While I can see the bubble in the sight window, I definitely can't see through the oil. Can't be more than 20 miles since the change. I double checked & it was Rotella T4 15w-40. Honestly I was hoping someone would tell me "THAT'S IT! YOU USED THE WRONG OIL!" And all my woes would be over....

LOL,, wouldnt it be great if life was so simple lol...  Might keep in mind too that some oils are darker when new than others too.. Also that those sit2e windows do stain up fairly easily..  I have used Walmart supertech and Dollar Store non-energy cons Dino oils for hundreds of thousands of miles and done so successfully.. Possible one of the reasons why is I change my oils when the oil darkens or tranny gets sticky.. The stickiness though is not an issue like you are experiencing though,, its more of an issue of going from buttery smooth to a little stiffer on the toe..  Both of those oils I have used are dark in nature when brand new but, like all oils, are easily to see they are dirty dark when dark if one knows what they looked like when installed.. Another place I suppose its possible that you are picking up dirty oil from may be a really badly burned stator that has not failed yet.. I only mention that because these MK1's also came OEM with pretty nasty stator engineering.. If your bike has not had the stator updated in it since new and you get this tranny sorted out, the next thing will be the stator replacement LOL.. And then plastic water pump replacement,, and then Progressive Fork Springs,, and then lubing the splines and drive pins, and then CTFW for miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and so on and so forth 

[JFootman]

Not that anyone doubted it but you're a genius, @cowpuc! Case removed and before I got into the clutch I inspected the end plate on the shaft cam & found a bent arm and missing pin. Clutch and basket pulled. There appear to be at least 2 other teeth that are bent and on their way out the door. I can't find the missing pin but is this necessary? Should I drain the oil now and try to track it down or is it safe from affecting anything?

To repair pin/plate failure I assume I need to remove the circlip and then the shift lever assembly covering the central starbolt, remove the bolt then the plate & pins (I can check the manual). Are there any caveats to taking these out or putting them back in? 

I've read where many substitute the plate for one from later models that eliminates the bent tabs but would you guys just replace with the OEM (part #26H-18561-01-00) or "upgrade" to a later model? If the latter, any specific model year recommendations for a drop-in swap?

At this point, the bare minimum parts I need are the missing pin, the plate and the gasket. I will also replace the pressure plate springs as recommended. This summer I'm trying to keep all costs to a minimum but I'd like to replace the the entire clutch assembly from @skydoc_17 this winter (how do I order this from him?). 

I inspected the teeth on the clutch basket and while there are marks, there's no apparent wear of the metal. If I replace the entire clutch this winter, what other items should I be hypercritical of and inspect while it's open? All the gears do not appear to be excessively worn & no missing teeth. No obvious missing springs or broken parts but of course when you consider the source...!

[skydoc_17]

Hey Jason,

Congrats on finding your clutch issue! This has been some journey. When you are ready to replace your clutch, just send me a PM and I will get you all the parts you will need to make that clutch system like new. Good luck with that repair, and like the Puckster, you seem to have a flair for bringing your repair story to life for the members of this forum. For years to come Jason, future members of the forum will turn to this thread and glean the knowledge that you have shared with us all. 

Thank you for that sharing of wisdom.

Earl

 

[cowpuc]

1 hour ago, JFootman said:

Not that anyone doubted it but you're a genius, @cowpuc! Case removed and before I got into the clutch I inspected the end plate on the shaft cam & found a bent arm and missing pin. Clutch and basket pulled. There appear to be at least 2 other teeth that are bent and on their way out the door. I can't find the missing pin but is this necessary? Should I drain the oil now and try to track it down or is it safe from affecting anything?

To repair pin/plate failure I assume I need to remove the circlip and then the shift lever assembly covering the central starbolt, remove the bolt then the plate & pins (I can check the manual). Are there any caveats to taking these out or putting them back in? 

I've read where many substitute the plate for one from later models that eliminates the bent tabs but would you guys just replace with the OEM (part #26H-18561-01-00) or "upgrade" to a later model? If the latter, any specific model year recommendations for a drop-in swap?

At this point, the bare minimum parts I need are the missing pin, the plate and the gasket. I will also replace the pressure plate springs as recommended. This summer I'm trying to keep all costs to a minimum but I'd like to replace the the entire clutch assembly from @skydoc_17 this winter (how do I order this from him?). 

I inspected the teeth on the clutch basket and while there are marks, there's no apparent wear of the metal. If I replace the entire clutch this winter, what other items should I be hypercritical of and inspect while it's open? All the gears do not appear to be excessively worn & no missing teeth. No obvious missing springs or broken parts but of course when you consider the source...!

OUTSTANDING J = YOU ARE ONTO IT!!! GOOD JOB!!  I was going to ask where you were located earlier in the game but failed to do so but with this most excellent finding you have  I had to peek at your profile page... BEAUTIFUL FAMILY you have there my friend.. I am a family man myself,, 4 kids (who have all survived thousands of mile on the back of a beast just like you are working on) and a lovely wife of 41 years (also with thousands of MK1 miles under her belt).. Get this,, I also have a son named Jason with the last name initial "B",,, farrrr out and groovy eay? I also noticed you live in Indiana (main reason I checked your profile = see where you are located)?  I am in Muskegon MI 49445 if you want to check distance after reading this offer.  I have x3 retired MK1 parts bikes sitting under covers in my back yard of which I know for certain have decent parts in them to fix the tranny issue in your scoot.. You are more than welcome to shoot up here and take one home with you if you would like. No fee,, no strings attached (except for black black no trade backs LOL)..  By the way,,, Genius? LOL... Gearhead is more likely... Thinking about it though,,, being a life long backyard gearhead has proven to be a blessing and a curse,,,, I wonder if real geniuses experience that same blessing/curse thing,, hmmmm.. Thanks for the compliment though!! Puc

[cowpuc]

Concerning the missing pieces and parts,,, thats a really good question IMHO. After getting it all apart and looking closely for the missing pin and sheared off pin ear and still finding it missing I would look carefully in the oil you drained from it on its initial oil change. Still not locatable, one option would be pulling the exhaust and removing the oil pan and seeing if those parts are in there. On the same token though, that drum/mechanism is located at the very bottom of the cases where it would be very difficult for the parts to end up in the moving parts above their location. I would never ever do this with a customers bike back in my dealership days but on one of my OWN $500 MK1's with a missing 2nd gear that simply is not worth the engine tear down my gut would be screaming just ride it... Now if we were talking about a nut that fell into the combustion chamber or a valve shim I had inadvertently dropped down into the cases while doing a valve job my gut would be screaming ohh poop..  IMHO, about the only place those parts could reasonably end up would be in the sump and I just dont see how parts that large could get sucked thru the screen on the sump to be sucked up into the oil pump/oil pressure system.  The MK1's (and I have another gut feeling the MK2's, early V-Max's and 2nd Gens have this too) do not have an oil pressure sending unit. Instead they have a float valve sending unit that lets you know if the oil level in the sump area is getting low.. I suppose it is possible for one of those parts to get lodged in that float and cause some mysterious readings on your oil level reading on your dashboard.  One of my bikes had a faulty (probably filled with sludge) oil level sending unit which, of course read out on the dash with the typical red flashing light that I actually liked cause it matched the red flashing light from my faulty fuel gauge sending unit and was like that for over 100k miles.  The oil light never bothered me at all and caused no harm but the gas light was probablamatic and I ended up fixing that after Tip (my wife) squawked a few times over having to push Tweeks (our bike) because my calculations were wrong on how much fuel we had and all forward motion stopped when we ran out of gas LOL..  Check the clutch case cover too real well... Puc

[Flyinfool]

I once got lucky fishing out a part by sticking a small but powerful magnetic pickup tool down thru the oil drain back holes and was able to fish steel parts out of the sump. Try every access hole you can find.

I have not looked close enough at the internal layout of the oil pan to know if it is possible, but my concern would be something making its way back to the transmission gears. Under acceleration or climbing a hill and accelerating a part could move toward the back.

[cowpuc]

You know,,, relooking at the pics you posted @JFootman I think I misread what I initially thought I saw.. I initially thought the tab that holds the pin in was sheared off but looking a little closer I can see that it is just bent upright (this allowed the pin to slide out???).. I also noticed that Partzilla has those parts in stock and cheap.. Here is the fishe I am looking at:https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/yamaha/motorcycle/1983/xvz12tk/shift-cam-fork and looking at part numbers 14, 7 and 8. Notice the pins (14 and 7) are different pt numbers so probably different size pins.  Tell you what my friend, if I were on the road and stuck camping in a Hardware store parking lot while I had my bike tore apart I would remove that plate that secures the pins, go inside the hardware store and purchase a drill bit that measures the diameter of the pins, borrow a bench grinder from the hardware store backroom and cut off the shaft of the  bit to match the length of pin I needed and make myself a new missing pin.. I would then knock that bent tab back down into place, put it back together using atv sealant for a gasket and enjoy my trip.. Matter of fact, and seriously,,, I would do the same thing even if I was home only I would make a new gasket for the cover LOL.  That would DEFINITELY keep me enjoying my riding adventures until I could get up to Michigan to pick up my free parts bike LOL....

Edited May 29, 2021 by cowpuc

[JFootman]

You are correct, @cowpuc. The tab was not sheared off, just bent. You're a man after my own heart... cheap & quick! The clutch teardown wasn't that bad and will plan on skydoc's clutch upgrade (plus springs) this winter and now that I know what I'm getting into waiting on parts for 2 weeks won't be a big deal. Picking up a T30 Torx socket in the morning and will see about finding an alternate dowel pin. Tried a T30 bit I had lying around and twisted and unfortunately did some damage to the screw. Read that it's been Loctited so probably throw some heat on it and possibly my Dewalt impact screw gun. Thx agn!

[JFootman]

While I’m sure anyone who’s read any of this thread realizes I tend to have diarrhea of the mouth (or fingers), there’s occasionally a reason to my madness. I wanted to give an update but more importantly wanted to ask for some background so I can finalize the thread with a summary so future individuals could avoid reading through all my yammering and hopefully glean some applicable information, especially if they’re NOOBs to owing a 38 year old motorcycle as I am.

First the update… I took cowpuc’s advice and did a “cheater” fix. Not so much to save money but to get it back together and confirm the cam plate was my only problem. I’ve ordered the upgraded plate, pins, central screw & gasket from Partzilla (more on that in the future). I picked up a 4mm drill bit for the replacement pin (our “local” Menard’s was the only location that has 4mm drill bits). Wasn’t ideal as it still had a little slop (but less than the SAE bits) and it has a “triangular” base for the chuck like most modern bits so I had to cut it on both ends so the majority of the rounded shaft would fall between the two plates and articulate with the shift lever assembly. I was able to bend back the tab and realigned the others that appeared bent as well. Was shocked at just how soft the metal was. I put the clutch back together and sealed her back up. Thankfully it worked and took her for a spin with no issues to speak of.

Of note, I believe that the dark coloration in the oil was from my being stuck in 3rd and “burning” the clutch plates after starting from a dead stop. I’m no expert and wish I had a microscope to inspect the oil but it looks more like microscopic fragments than just the typical dirty oil. There were also areas around the clutch parts that had a thick, dark material that didn’t appear to be typical sludge. Once the parts show up I’m planning on doing a repeat oil & filter replacement and hopefully it will be a non-issue. Will probably add some Seafoam just before in an attempt to clean out all the crud (comments or recommendations to the contrary?). As indicated above, I’m planning on replacing the clutch from skydoc this winter.

So in an attempt to possibly do a full write-up including links to posts, videos, pdf’s and sites I used for the diagnosis and repair (my feeble attempt to give back to the community), I wanted to garner as much information from you guys as I can. Most importantly WHY did this happen? I don’t understand the mechanics behind the ears bending. If the 2 plates remain aligned and the pins themselves aren’t bending, what force is causing it? I didn’t see anything that appeared to articulate directly with the ears or pins beyond the plate although the “upgraded” plate maintained the same general appearance so perhaps I’m incorrect. If it’s rider error (improper shifting?) then I’m willing to accept that as I’m willing to change my riding habits and help others prevent the issue. Of course I’m short shifting because of 2nd gear and if that’s the sole culprit I’d accept that but even that doesn’t seem to be consistent in the posts I’m reading. When I called our local Yamaha dealer, the 70+ year old parts manager I spoke to said that in 40 years of ordering Yamaha parts he couldn’t recall ordering that part or having that issue pop up more than once. It was after reading that a rider replaced the plate THREE TIMES in one summer that I felt the need for both diagnosing WHY it happens but more importantly making a permanent fix.

Thoughts, insights, etc. (including condemnation for my “finger vomit”! I’m obviously not used to posting in forums!)? Again, thank you to all who have added their $0.02 to helping work up my issue especially since there are a bunch of posts I found later discussing it from more experienced riders and “mechanics”!

[Marcarl]

16 minutes ago, JFootman said:

While I’m sure anyone who’s read any of this thread realizes I tend to have diarrhea of the mouth (or fingers), there’s occasionally a reason to my madness. I wanted to give an update but more importantly wanted to ask for some background so I can finalize the thread with a summary so future individuals could avoid reading through all my yammering and hopefully glean some applicable information, especially if they’re NOOBs to owing a 38 year old motorcycle as I am.

First the update… I took cowpuc’s advice and did a “cheater” fix. Not so much to save money but to get it back together and confirm the cam plate was my only problem. I’ve ordered the upgraded plate, pins, central screw & gasket from Partzilla (more on that in the future). I picked up a 4mm drill bit for the replacement pin (our “local” Menard’s was the only location that has 4mm drill bits). Wasn’t ideal as it still had a little slop (but less than the SAE bits) and it has a “triangular” base for the chuck like most modern bits so I had to cut it on both ends so the majority of the rounded shaft would fall between the two plates and articulate with the shift lever assembly. I was able to bend back the tab and realigned the others that appeared bent as well. Was shocked at just how soft the metal was. I put the clutch back together and sealed her back up. Thankfully it worked and took her for a spin with no issues to speak of.

Of note, I believe that the dark coloration in the oil was from my being stuck in 3rd and “burning” the clutch plates after starting from a dead stop. I’m no expert and wish I had a microscope to inspect the oil but it looks more like microscopic fragments than just the typical dirty oil. There were also areas around the clutch parts that had a thick, dark material that didn’t appear to be typical sludge. Once the parts show up I’m planning on doing a repeat oil & filter replacement and hopefully it will be a non-issue. Will probably add some Seafoam just before in an attempt to clean out all the crud (comments or recommendations to the contrary?). As indicated above, I’m planning on replacing the clutch from skydoc this winter.

So in an attempt to possibly do a full write-up including links to posts, videos, pdf’s and sites I used for the diagnosis and repair (my feeble attempt to give back to the community), I wanted to garner as much information from you guys as I can. Most importantly WHY did this happen? I don’t understand the mechanics behind the ears bending. If the 2 plates remain aligned and the pins themselves aren’t bending, what force is causing it? I didn’t see anything that appeared to articulate directly with the ears or pins beyond the plate although the “upgraded” plate maintained the same general appearance so perhaps I’m incorrect. If it’s rider error (improper shifting?) then I’m willing to accept that as I’m willing to change my riding habits and help others prevent the issue. Of course I’m short shifting because of 2nd gear and if that’s the sole culprit I’d accept that but even that doesn’t seem to be consistent in the posts I’m reading. When I called our local Yamaha dealer, the 70+ year old parts manager I spoke to said that in 40 years of ordering Yamaha parts he couldn’t recall ordering that part or having that issue pop up more than once. It was after reading that a rider replaced the plate THREE TIMES in one summer that I felt the need for both diagnosing WHY it happens but more importantly making a permanent fix.

Thoughts, insights, etc. (including condemnation for my “finger vomit”! I’m obviously not used to posting in forums!)? Again, thank you to all who have added their $0.02 to helping work up my issue especially since there are a bunch of posts I found later discussing it from more experienced riders and “mechanics”!

Good write up. I know you think its long, but it tells the story and that's good. If you decided to tell us the same thing from 3 or 4 different directions or ramble about things that didn't pertain to this story, then you might be correct and you would loose readership, but I don't think that has happened. You kept to the subject at hand and to the points discussed,,,,, now I could say that again in more ways, but I will leave it be,,, except that had you,,,,,,,,,,,,, se what I mean??

 

[cowpuc]

13 minutes ago, Marcarl said:

Good write up. I know you think its long, but it tells the story and that's good. If you decided to tell us the same thing from 3 or 4 different directions or ramble about things that didn't pertain to this story, then you might be correct and you would loose readership, but I don't think that has happened. You kept to the subject at hand and to the points discussed,,,,, now I could say that again in more ways, but I will leave it be,,, except that had you,,,,,,,,,,,,, se what I mean??

 

And J telling the same story from 3 or 4 different directions and rambling on and on would have been a pretty good indicator that, as a newer member, he was already starting to pick up some bad habits that some of our clubs life long members have honed to perfection and we certainly would not want that to happen LOL.  See what mean LOL

[Marcarl]

16 minutes ago, cowpuc said:

And J telling the same story from 3 or 4 different directions and rambling on and on would have been a pretty good indicator that, as a newer member, he was already starting to pick up some bad habits that some of our clubs life long members have honed to perfection and we certainly would not want that to happen LOL.  See what mean LOL

Back to your corner!!!

[cowpuc]

40 minutes ago, JFootman said:

While I’m sure anyone who’s read any of this thread realizes I tend to have diarrhea of the mouth (or fingers), there’s occasionally a reason to my madness. I wanted to give an update but more importantly wanted to ask for some background so I can finalize the thread with a summary so future individuals could avoid reading through all my yammering and hopefully glean some applicable information, especially if they’re NOOBs to owing a 38 year old motorcycle as I am.

First the update… I took cowpuc’s advice and did a “cheater” fix. Not so much to save money but to get it back together and confirm the cam plate was my only problem. I’ve ordered the upgraded plate, pins, central screw & gasket from Partzilla (more on that in the future). I picked up a 4mm drill bit for the replacement pin (our “local” Menard’s was the only location that has 4mm drill bits). Wasn’t ideal as it still had a little slop (but less than the SAE bits) and it has a “triangular” base for the chuck like most modern bits so I had to cut it on both ends so the majority of the rounded shaft would fall between the two plates and articulate with the shift lever assembly. I was able to bend back the tab and realigned the others that appeared bent as well. Was shocked at just how soft the metal was. I put the clutch back together and sealed her back up. Thankfully it worked and took her for a spin with no issues to speak of.

Of note, I believe that the dark coloration in the oil was from my being stuck in 3rd and “burning” the clutch plates after starting from a dead stop. I’m no expert and wish I had a microscope to inspect the oil but it looks more like microscopic fragments than just the typical dirty oil. There were also areas around the clutch parts that had a thick, dark material that didn’t appear to be typical sludge. Once the parts show up I’m planning on doing a repeat oil & filter replacement and hopefully it will be a non-issue. Will probably add some Seafoam just before in an attempt to clean out all the crud (comments or recommendations to the contrary?). As indicated above, I’m planning on replacing the clutch from skydoc this winter.

So in an attempt to possibly do a full write-up including links to posts, videos, pdf’s and sites I used for the diagnosis and repair (my feeble attempt to give back to the community), I wanted to garner as much information from you guys as I can. Most importantly WHY did this happen? I don’t understand the mechanics behind the ears bending. If the 2 plates remain aligned and the pins themselves aren’t bending, what force is causing it? I didn’t see anything that appeared to articulate directly with the ears or pins beyond the plate although the “upgraded” plate maintained the same general appearance so perhaps I’m incorrect. If it’s rider error (improper shifting?) then I’m willing to accept that as I’m willing to change my riding habits and help others prevent the issue. Of course I’m short shifting because of 2nd gear and if that’s the sole culprit I’d accept that but even that doesn’t seem to be consistent in the posts I’m reading. When I called our local Yamaha dealer, the 70+ year old parts manager I spoke to said that in 40 years of ordering Yamaha parts he couldn’t recall ordering that part or having that issue pop up more than once. It was after reading that a rider replaced the plate THREE TIMES in one summer that I felt the need for both diagnosing WHY it happens but more importantly making a permanent fix.

Thoughts, insights, etc. (including condemnation for my “finger vomit”! I’m obviously not used to posting in forums!)? Again, thank you to all who have added their $0.02 to helping work up my issue especially since there are a bunch of posts I found later discussing it from more experienced riders and “mechanics”!

Here are my thoughts as to the why J.. The shift drum has channels machined into it that the driven end of the shiftorks lay in. The "forked" end of the shift fork lays in a journal machined into each corresponding/mating gear and when the drum is rotated by that mechanism that hooks on to the pins we are discussing resulting in lateral pressure from the rotation of the drum created by your toe when you shift it results in the forks moving side to side and the gears to move side to side and mating up with gears of a variety of ratios.  I have a hunch that if you were to put a dial indicator on the end of the shift drum and run the tranny thru the gears you would discover a certain amount of end play of the drum as the drum/fork pressure increases with the force needed to get the gears to ramp up (talking in another direction as Marcarl would say = gears to match up LOL).  When the mechanism that is engaging the pins is in the process of rotating the drum that end play has to go somewhere and possibly the mechanism has enough of "bite" on the pin that the pins resistance to move in its housing is over come and the pin slides in its case and finds itself pushing on those easily bent tabs and, over time, that pressure can be great enough to actually bend  a tab open and the pin falls out.  A couple things that may help to avoid this from happening would/could be:

1. Making sure the engine oil is changed when it looses viscosity and you feel the tranny getting "notchy" as I mentioned in one of my other posts.  When riding in extreme temps I have noticed the need to swap in new oil as early as 1500 miles. 

2. Making sure your clutch system is up to par with no tiny little air bubbles collecting at the bango bolt at the master resulting in loss of disengagment space between the plates resulting in more pressure needed to move the shift forks side to side. 

On a side note here, I am almost 100% sure that Mom Yam actually did an upgrade to that plate with the Tabs on it and have long since developed a much more suitable means of capturing the pins.  I have never ever had the issue and thusly have never ordered a new plate but I would be shocked to find out that the new plate, if ordered, would come non-updated. I am sure when an actual VR guru comes along and reads this they will verify one way or the other and/or correct all the 3 or 5 different directions I just took you in LOL

[cowpuc]

18 minutes ago, Marcarl said:

Back to your corner!!!

Roger that says the Kettle to the Pot! 

[JFootman]

Thx for the encouragement, @Marcarl & @cowpuc. Unfortunately as you referenced your "pea brain" before, puc, after reading your explanation I must have a mustard seed brain!!!! Other than perhaps weak metal or a poor design, it doesn't sound like there's anything external to blame other than your #1 & # 2 points above. My take home message would be if it ain't broke don't fix it. If it's broken, fix it right (wish I'd follow my own advice!).

So... below are my condensed instructions/summary thus far. As I've not received the parts, there will be more to follow. Please critique & I can change anything for a final post at the end of the thread or perhaps a link to a pdf to include everything. As I'm definitely a newbie, if the words/descriptions I use are inaccurate or difficult to understand let me know. I tried to use the terms from the parts catalog as well as the terms used throughout the thread.

In an attempt to condense the shifting issues related pin loss secondary to bent ears on the cam plate I wanted to do a write up on both the diagnosis and fixing of the problem. This information has been garnered from Venture owners, gurus and individuals far smarter than I am so if anything doesn't make sense I will refer you to their expert advice!

I will reference part numbers as detailed in the parts catalog found HERE. The first gen service manuals will offer additional details and guides and can be found HERE. I have an ’83 Venture so all part and page numbers will be referenced from those manuals.

If there is an issue with bent broken ears with missing pins on the shifting drum many will describe a difficulty and eventual inability to shift beyond a certain gear or gets “locked” in gear. Easy things to check initially:

1. Check for a bend in the shift rod (part #27, page C10)
2. Check if the clamp that attaches the shift lever (#22, C10) to the shift shaft (#22, C10) is tight and not slipping (10mm nut). There is a second clamp on the other side of the crankcase cover (forward bevel gear cover) (#1, B12) however this will require removal of the cover and replacement of the gasket if you decide to inspect.
3. If not previously done, purge remaining air in the line at the banjo bolt where the line connects to the clutch master cylinder. Although more messy, this can be done in a similar manner to bleeding brake/clutch lines but drained at the bolt instead of the bleed screw. This area is apparently notorious for retaining air and even tiny air bubbles may have an impact on shifting performance.
4. Check that the tiny hole (return port?) in the bottom of the clutch master cylinder is clear. You will need a very fine wire to do this (don’t use a needle as I read someone broke off the tip of the needle and had a heck of a time removing it).
5. To rule out a clutch issue, perform the “puc rock” test. See video:
   .

Unfortunately if the above have been eliminated, the clutch pack will have to be removed to inspect the next most likely culprits. Although documented for a Vmax, attached is a very good pdf guide of the process of removing the clutch and inspecting/upgrading the weak end plate (#8, C9). The items I found different or did differently:

1. I did NOT drain the engine oil
2. I did NOT entirely remove the footrest/rear brake assembly. I just removed the 12mm bolts and allowed it to dangle.
3. My ’83 Venture does not have the diaphragm retainer plate, the diaphragm spring, or the ring spring seat.
4. I didn’t remove the center pushrod or the steel bearing.
5. If you are inspecting all of the clutch plates you will need to remove the clutch plate retaining ring (#4, C5). When replacing, I used the trick of fishing line fed from the top of the clutch boss hole (#3, C5). Feed both ends through the hole creating a loop on the top. Connect the end of the ring to the loop and pull through. Repeat for the other end.
6. I used a 30mm socket instead of the 1 13/16 to remove the central nut.
7. I didn’t have access to an impact gun or a clutch removal tool. I used the non-ratchet end of a ratchet strap to hold the clutch boss (#3, C5) while turning the nut. Run the non-hook end between the teeth on the clutch basket (#1, C5) 3 times counter-clockwise (clockwise to tighten) and secure (frame, peg, etc) making sure that when tension is applied it does not bend the teeth of the clutch basket.

Once the entire clutch pack is removed you can easily visualize the end plate and the potentially bent or broken ears and the pins they retain. There are different opinions regarding going fishing for the lost pins if they are missing and not on the bottom of the case. I will defer that decision to your discretion.

If you decide to replace the plate with bent or weakened ears, the central bolt will need to be removed (#9, C9). This is Loctite’d in place & the bolt is somewhat soft and can easily be stripped despite being a 30mm Torx. Heat may be required to loosen the Loctite and free it up. Mine started to strip so I replaced when I purchased replacement parts.

A thread that documents the updated parts can be found HERE. Look at post #3 from dingy. Of note, the part numbers for the pins are different in case you attempt to attempt to reuse the old pins for the upgrade. The upgraded parts are:

4NK-18185-00-00 SEGMENT Qty: 1

93604-12037-00 PIN, DOWEL Qty: 5

93604-16092-00 PIN, DOWEL Qty: 1

How To Update the shift Segment.pdf

Edited May 30, 2021 by JFootman
Bad link

[skydoc_17]

4 hours ago, cowpuc said:

And J telling the same story from 3 or 4 different directions and rambling on and on would have been a pretty good indicator that, as a newer member, he was already starting to pick up some bad habits that some of our clubs life long members have honed to perfection and we certainly would not want that to happen LOL.  See what mean LOL

I am mildly offended by that rambling on and on remark Puckster! I don't ramble, I communicate!  (NOT Really LOL!)

So, to answer Jason's question about why did this Cam Plate Fail, I think you are looking at two different issues here. The first being the design of the Cam Plate Assembly itself. And this is why Yamaha redesigned the assembly. The second issue I've seen is when a rider has difficulty getting the bike in first gear, (because they didn't downshift coming to a light or stop sign)  Then while standing still and trying to get the bike into first gear they start stomping on the gearshift foot lever. The force generated by stomping on the foot shift lever overpowers the stamped steel actuator arm and the result is the bent parts you saw when you removed the Clutch basket. Personally, I've never had this issue on either my 87'VR or my 89'VR but I don't make a habit of stomping on the gear shift foot lever either. After you finish this repair Jason, if you do get caught in a higher gear when you have arrived at a light or stop sign, slip the clutch lever a bit while putting downward force on the shift lever, (but NOT Stomping on it) until you are in first gear again. Great writeup Jason, and we hope to hear more from you in the future!

Earl

[Marcarl]

55 minutes ago, skydoc_17 said:

I am mildly offended by that rambling on and on remark Puckster! I don't ramble, I communicate!  (NOT Really LOL!)

So, to answer Jason's question about why did this Cam Plate Fail, I think you are looking at two different issues here. The first being the design of the Cam Plate Assembly itself. And this is why Yamaha redesigned the assembly. The second issue I've seen is when a rider has difficulty getting the bike in first gear, (because they didn't downshift coming to a light or stop sign)  Then while standing still and trying to get the bike into first gear they start stomping on the gearshift foot lever. The force generated by stomping on the foot shift lever overpowers the stamped steel actuator arm and the result is the bent parts you saw when you removed the Clutch basket. Personally, I've never had this issue on either my 87'VR or my 89'VR but I don't make a habit of stomping on the gear shift foot lever either. After you finish this repair Jason, if you do get caught in a higher gear when you have arrived at a light or stop sign, slip the clutch lever a bit while putting downward force on the shift lever, (but NOT Stomping on it) until you are in first gear again. Great writeup Jason, and we hope to hear more from you in the future!

Earl

Way to go Earl, as usual fine explanation that even I could understand,,,, in both cases.

[JFootman]

Ok, @Marcarl, @cowpuc, @skydoc_17, @saddlebum, @Flyinfool and anyone else willing to offer guidance to a puckered up individual. Tonight was supposed to be the night to complete the swap. Everything's pulled and I applied heat to the Torx but of course the shaft wants to rotate. One of the threads offering guidance said "Try to find some way to anchor it." Another said "you need to bring the shift shaft forward to make room. In order to do this, remove the clamp bolt on the other side of the bike where the shift lever connects to the crankcase... and bring the entire shift shaft forward to make room."

Of course my priority is to first do no damage but I was hoping I didn't have to pull the shift shaft completely (unless this isn't that difficult and "safer"). The first recommendation of "try to find some way to anchor it" apparently is too vague for this ignoramus as my first thought was to use a pipe wrench but of course without "bringing the shift shaft forward" as the second recommended I don't know how this is possible. 

Recommendations? Anyone done this before and can tell me how to "anchor it"? 

Uggghhh... I hate having to rely on y'all so much!!! As always, thx in advance!!

Edited June 11, 2021 by JFootman