Puff of white smoke and milkshake in my oil.

[Popsnana19655]

Okay guys weather fine cleaned up long enough to pull the engine I just got the engine out. And I removed the valve cover and that's as far as I got .I'm been cleaning the motor. Yeah I had it on the jack and actually put bolts backwards in the top motor mount area so I could have something to hold on to and ended up  pick it up by hand and twisting it out the front side had a little nub it was hanging on. Put bolts in the top motor mount have hand holes it really helps.

Also noted with the valve cover off one of the chain guide is missing. 

And and I got lucky and hit top Dead center the first try.

And and is this cover supposed to look like this. Thank you guys and I will keep you posted have a problem holding a damn phone and taking pictures oh one last thing I don't know if it'll show up. The wear on the cams is that normal wear or  that little triangle at the top it's like that on all of them I got close up flashes not letting you get a good picture.

Just a note from riding air Cooled the fins like this on the they're on the bottom of the motor I have to clean them everything else they're to help cool the bike and if they're full of crud dirt and stuff it won't help but on the bottom back side of the motor a half inch thick so they down on the ground and clean them out it will help cool your bike down a little bit I hope or it should.

Easy to take a picture of these things then rolling the motor up and trying to hold and take a pic.

[Popsnana19655]

After this last post I just went back and been reading ever since.now before I go any further is there any test that you want me to try motor is out sitting on the ground. All I've done is remove the valve cover. When I talk to puck when I started this. I did the compression test never went over 15 lb of pressure in the radiator the water was coming out of the carb top overflows under the seat. The radiator test would not hold pressure so I would pop it up and go over there by the number one cylinder to find out where it was leaking it was leaking there then finally out the oil drain plug. And water was coming out of the carb sink plug. If that helps with the long discussion you are having with this.

This is my second water cooled bike.

Restored an 81 silver wing. Gl500 it was a baby goldwing. Never had an overheating problem and ended up doing donating it to Shriners hospital. The bike set in storage 5 years From the original owners kids after he passed buddy had it for two years in his storage gave it to me cuz I like old bikes and I was working on his Harleys. Tell there was a problem getting the title so we didn't donate it back to the Shriners hospital cuz it was a parade bike. Which is one of many of the bikes I have given away for free but that's another story for a later time

[Marcarl]

The middle gear cover looks like the center has been pushed out.

The cam looks like it might have had too much heat, referring to the 'brown' triangles.

Other than that I didn't pickup anything untoward.

Now on the coolant leakage? Pull the heads, and I would go the whole gambit, everthing! if you are planning on fixing this one. Maybe a lot cheaper to score another one, but maybe not half as much fun. This one is going to set you back and lonnng ways.

[saddlebum]

Hard to tell from the pictures but that one cam lobe looks as though it may be starting to wear through the hard facing. If that is the case then it would not be long and pieces of cam lobe will start breaking out.  Some pretty much holds true if the lobe overheated as Marcarl suggested possible due to  lack of lubrication in which case there too pieces of cam may start to break away. This is because once the metal in the cam overheats its temper will have changed. Again as Carl suggest unless you just want the joy of rebuilding the engine I would more than likely be more economical to find another engine or bike.

Edited November 1, 2020 by saddlebum

[Popsnana19655]

Can't really afford a new motor or bike at the moment. Thank you for the all the help so far. Didn't see the debating. Took a while to read it all. before I did anything else in case of another compression test was in order. To find out how the water was going up to the carbs overflows. I haven't pulled the other valve covers off cuz I started reading. But I really like this bike and I want it running again. This is the only bike that at 100 MPH. Feels like 65-70. Most of bikes the speedometer and gauges of the first to go. Cuz we put a lot of miles on bikes driving around in the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex. Moved up to Joplin Missouri and just loved it. No traffic no traffic and the roads up here are pretty good. And from the picture and youtube I seen of cowpuc and tip. which I got to meet. We ride pretty much the way they do load it down,rain or shine,hot or cold. 

Some body did put a 1300 front forks on it . Did see that on the triple clamps. 🙂 There's a bike wrecking yard West60. Got my tires and carburetor boots from them. Will check with them Tuesday. 

[Patch]

Regarding leaking: it strikes me that you use the term in the plural? After reading Bum's last post on the leaking, it dawned on me that the the velocity stacks. So lets think this thru a bit: we know the gasket is blown, but still I can't seem to find the math to make sense of what's going on. To put some order to these thoughts: if the coolant over flowing from the top carbs then that explains the crank overflow cause the air box has a direct contention to the crank case.

What concerns me most from a budget perspective is the missing guide! A loose chain makes a real mess of the works,,,,,that's a long potential list.

I 've done a lot of engine work on a lot of old bikes, have seen the cams before, same same thing. On the double lobe triangle that is a casting flaw. The chipping look is hot material under constant pressure which adds to more wear. A side bar: on my cams when I handle them I take the time bevel the shoulders of the lobes. That will limit the chipping which also means less floating metal.

That said Bum is right those cams are closing there duty cycle, why is likely well too much heat. You cant see it in the pics now because the engine polished the lobes up but notice the texture on the long surface... The only way you see that confused patter buff in the shine is the first 5/8k or they've run dry at some point,  the wear is a relatively new polish from the lash shims! Same note: from here I see the lobe max lift is way more a bright polish?

Now you can after you measure them (specs in the book) choose to reuse them but like the man said they're likely going to tie you to too many valve adjustments way too often.

Carl is right fun but hard on the pocket because there's going to be equal wear with all the plain bearing. I know that an output roller bearing certainly is a risk for 2 up to have a very bad day if that went dry. 

anyways enjoyed the pics thanks for sharing them

Edited November 1, 2020 by Patch

[Popsnana19655]

So I need to start looking for a motor. Seen some on E-bay. I hate buying online. Everytime I've ordered parts for cars. Something wrong or missing. Well I Post pictures as I go. May help with the debating about water in the carbs. I'm a parts changer, not a mechanic. So let see what we find inside the old girl's head. 

 

[Marcarl]

23 minutes ago, Popsnana19655 said:

So I need to start looking for a motor. Seen some on E-bay. I hate buying online. Everytime I've ordered parts for cars. Something wrong or missing. Well I Post pictures as I go. May help with the debating about water in the carbs. I'm a parts changer, not a mechanic. So let see what we find inside the old girl's head. 

 

Sure will be interesitng,,,,, are you done yet?

[Popsnana19655]

These are the pics where I've got so far I had one of my twin nephews helping me he's 2 years old. And this is pictures of one and three or rear valve cover water sitting in the head bolts.

And I will break stuff first thing I broke is the grabber for that little water port thing by the spark plug. It barely touched it in a plastic just broke it turned pretty easy but when I went to grab it plastic was gone. 

so now I'm going to figure out how to get it out without shattering it all to a million pieces and get everywhere.

Be right back after these messages.

[Popsnana19655]

[cowpuc]

49 minutes ago, Popsnana19655 said:

 

Looking good my friend,, looking good.. From what I can see here on my laptop it does look like the #1 pot,, left rear, was indeed probably the one taking on coolant, at least from what I can see of the color of the piston top. As far as the cam lobe wear, I have seen similar wear patterns on bikes whose owners had let them set for extended periods of time and then failed to prelube the cam journals before start up. Ending up with cam journal smudging and then failure allowing the cam to actually move in the journals. If I were you and I was going to rebuild what you have I would check the cam in its journals for movement.. I would probably just go ahead and pull the cam caps and take a peek at those  journal saddles and make sure they are healthy.  Hey Pops,, I envy you,, we are in the middle of a snow storm here. We just got from Fremont Michigan and it was literally a white out up there,, NICE to see someone has decent weather to play in!!

Keep the faith!

Puc

[Popsnana19655]

E. when I pull on it cleaning it there is no head gasket ..

My bad there was a head gasket on there just a metal piece.

[Patch]

For future readers I thought I'd mention that a broken or in this case missing tensioner and if all else seemed reusable, you would still want to inspect the chain drive gears, which also includes the one on the crank .

[Popsnana19655]

Both chain guides are there. Thought it was missing but it's down lower by chain tensioner.

[Popsnana19655]

Ok cleaned the head up. Think someone had changed the head before. There's a ingraving on it. (C.Y-10) or (G.Y.-10). The surface is pitted a little bit and the valves are not seating. Poured a little gas into it . Seaped though. Wiped down around the valves. Did again. Same results. So I think valves and blown head gasket. that is answer to the water 💦 in the carbs. If there's a way to post it .So if it happens again to someone.

I put 2 band-aid and hit it with a hammer 🔨 in the right places. Just need to know where and how hard to hit it. 

Not allowed to hit myself in the head anymore. To many concussion and I quit drinking. 

Can't ask Bubba to hold my soda and bump my head in the wall. People will think your insane. 

Anyway, so what's the best way to do this. Whole motor or the head redone. No transportation no money till fixed. We travel for work remodeling. So cheapest way. Cause it's going to be running again some way or  @Freebird, @Marcarl

@cowpuc, @Patch

[Marcarl]

Can you post pictures of the heads and the crankcase surfaces?

Where did you pour the gas into what?

Seeped through where?

How do you know the valves are not seating?

Thinking that you probably though we could figure this out, but the questions are getting to become expensive, so the answers will have to match up to the questions.

[Patch]

From here,,, my take on what I think you are choosing to proceed with?

Now just to get this out of the way: remember you are rebuilding a touring bike, reliability is very important!

You will need a set of calipers to measure the cam lobs, follow the specs in the book and please let us know the units of measure.

Where needed expect to replace the plain bearings  this is a compromise as I would measure all and replace all. They are not expensiveness.

Have you lapped valves before? Like the seats could benefit form a light cut, and if they rent them in your neck then the angle is to be found in the book.

You will want to check the deck of the block again by the book then the head, zero sense in putting back together if either is below spec, right.

the valves and cam in my opinion should be sent to a machine shop, look around and get a couple of quotes, a basic minimum by the right fellow will prevent you from reinstalling bad valves, or flipping/tilting adjustment shims. I the deck is good - and the head is withing spec then likely you can pull this off cheap. I the deck is bad, I wait for an engine to pop up at a good price. If the head is warped then I would not bother with any of it just find a head, they're out there..

Let us know before you start getting deeper and then limit your choices. 

 

[cowpuc]

1 hour ago, Marcarl said:

Can you post pictures of the heads and the crankcase surfaces?

Where did you pour the gas into what?

Seeped through where?

How do you know the valves are not seating?

Thinking that you probably though we could figure this out, but the questions are getting to become expensive, so the answers will have to match up to the questions.

I am probably way out of line speaking for @Popsnana19655 on this @Marcarl but for many many years us back yard, make em run sometimes gearheads operating within a tight budget would tip a head over to check its valves and do so by dumping raw gas into the combustion chamber around the valves and see if it would leak past the valve faces. That test this old wannabe gearhead  has used many times actually served me pretty good in a tight spot in the past.. If I am correct in my minds eye about that is what Pops was referring to and you do decide you wanna try it sometime, it is advisable to leave the plug in the head when you do cause otherwise your foot will get wet with gas and Marca wont let you back in the house cause you will smell funny. 

1 hour ago, Patch said:

From here,,, my take on what I think you are choosing to proceed with?

Now just to get this out of the way: remember you are rebuilding a touring bike, reliability is very important!

You will need a set of calipers to measure the cam lobs, follow the specs in the book and please let us know the units of measure.

Where needed expect to replace the plain bearings  this is a compromise as I would measure all and replace all. They are not expensiveness.

Have you lapped valves before? Like the seats could benefit form a light cut, and if they rent them in your neck then the angle is to be found in the book.

You will want to check the deck of the block again by the book then the head, zero sense in putting back together if either is below spec, right.

the valves and cam in my opinion should be sent to a machine shop, look around and get a couple of quotes, a basic minimum by the right fellow will prevent you from reinstalling bad valves, or flipping/tilting adjustment shims. I the deck is good - and the head is withing spec then likely you can pull this off cheap. I the deck is bad, I wait for an engine to pop up at a good price. If the head is warped then I would not bother with any of it just find a head, they're out there..

Let us know before you start getting deeper and then limit your choices. 

 

Right there with @Patch Pops but I just thought I would pass this along in case your budget doesnt allow for spending right now,, hey brother,, has happened to me more than once.

I would take the time to pull the valves, check and see if its just surface crud causing them to not seat - should be easy enough to do. Maybe use a black sharpie permenant marker on their faces, tiny dab of valve lapping compound on em or just spin em back and forth on their seats and see if they scrape even all the way around or are bent. If bent your into valve $ cause I doubt you can straighten em.   I had a valve go open on a Honda 350 on a cross country trip once and ended up having to lap it in to get er to run again so I could get home on it.. What I did under that challenging time was pulled the valves, cleaned up their faces, glued the valves together (exhaust to intake, face to face) with super glue then I used the stem of the valve that was not in the guide to attach an old hand drill onto. A small dab of valve lapping compound (I actually used grind dust out of a bench grinder mixed with grease - dont laugh,, it worked pretty good LOL) on the valve face that I was seating, using the forward and reverse on the little drill and carefully touching the valve seat face with the valve face and they seated right in pretty good.  Now,, all that said, I warn you that some valves (and I would not be surprised that this includes  OEM Yam valves) are coated and once you cut thru that coating - the valves dont last. These arent Briggs and Stratton valves brother..

I use to have a granite surface plate at the shop for doing precision work on like checking heads for warpage with feeler gauges, dial indicators and good precision straight edges BUT before that time I used a sheet of thick glass on a couple two by sixes to work with for years. You might try doing that, lay a piece of 220 grit sand paper over the glass, put the head down face first on the paper and work it in a circle lightly, lift the head up after a few circles and see what the surface looks like.  You can do the same thing with a good flat file with 220 wrapped on it and holding one end of it against the face and pivoting it across the face of the head but you gotta be extra careful doing that to keep even pressure on the file.  My first guess, and take this from one who knows nothin about nothin, is that if you have warpage it will be the head. The cylinders are intregal of the block as far as I know which should give the pots some rigidity and a little more resistance to warp BUT,, I would still take the 220 covered flat file and run it over the deck to check for highspots anyway. 

I have no idea if Mom Yam makes a complete top end gasket kit for these bikes but aftermarkets like Cometic might.  Some of those after markets used to come complete with valve stem seals. If it were me I would probably spring for seals even if I could not get em in a kit. 

If your not gonna spring the bucks for new rubber up on the cam cover,, you know,, that one with the little moons on it,, I would clean it all up really really well with carb cleaner to remove oil residue and use YamaBond  4 on the old rubber. I used YamaBond 5 exclusively to successfully patch up my torn/holed diaphrams on my 1st Gens for years (new ones were wayyyyy to costly for my liking - I could actually replace my bike x2 for the costs that Yam wanted just for diaphrams  ).  Then I found this product called E-6000 (I will see if I can find you a video of that amazing product) that actually lasts longer then YamaBond 5 on the diaphrams BUT - I dont think I would use it in an area that I might want to go back in and have to remove the stuff,, it is that potent. 

Ok,, so right about now you gotta be saying to yourself,, Puc is nuts.. Maybe so BUT,, in a pinch,, the above might work LOL

Puc

 

[Marcarl]

You be heading in my way of things @cowpuc. Glad you posted your thoughts.

[Popsnana19655]

.Ok cleaned the head up. Think someone had changed the head before. There's a ingraving on it. (C.Y-10) or (G.Y.-10). The surface is pitted a little bit and the valves are not seating. Poured a little gas into it . Seaped though. Wiped down around the valves. Did again. Same results. 

@Cowpuc 

[Popsnana19655]

BPoured into both sides of the head. Intake and exhaust ports holes. Like in the shop videos. I will take some pictures.when the rain stops. 

The valves didn't hold the gas on either side or on top of the valves surface with the plugs in. 

Got gas everywhere. Glad I did it over the fire pit. Scared everyone when I lit it 🤣.  Bonfire great stress relief. 

[saddlebum]

Leaky valve seats is one thing you can lap  in very easily by your self and lapping sticks are cheap (basically just a piece of wood with a suction cup on the end) or you use Puc,s suggestion and using another valve. I just find the lapping stick easier. Make sure you get one were the diameter of the suction cup flattened out is less than the dia. of the valve but not too much smaller Hand lapping does not remove too much material and less than a valve grinder does so you should be pretty safe. Keep the cup and valve surface dry and clean so the cup maintains a good hold and use the lapping compound sparingly. The only compound that does the work is that remaining on the mating surfaces. the surplus just makes a mess and harder for the cup to stay stuck to the valve.

You still however want to make sure there are no cracks in the head. Aluminum heads crack easily if the engine was ever severally overheated so it would be my recommendation to have them properly tested. If you prefer to cut corners stay as much on the cheap as you can than at the very least remove all valves (number them so they go back in the same hole or stick them through a length of card board matching their position with the position on the head from were they came). Clean the head thoroughlyd then turn the head upside down and fill the water jackets with gas or diesel fuel Try not to dribble any on the head outside the water jackets you want to keep the rest of the head clean and dry. Then let sit over night and check for traces of fuel that may indicate a crack. I prefer diesel fuel to gas because it leaves a more visible trace than gas due to it not evaporating so rapidly and it is still thin enough to leak through any cracks. You can also lightly dust the head with talcum powder after leaving it sit and then gently blow it away. The dry powder will clear out but any wet powder will stick indicating a leak.

Edited November 12, 2020 by saddlebum