Puff of white smoke and milkshake in my oil.

[Popsnana19655]

So here's is what I got so far. Pulled the plugs. Left rear has water on it . Lot of oil and moisture around carb,boot and valve cover area only.( left rear).

[Popsnana19655]

Been trying to load pictures . left rear of motor is where oil and grim is. Valve cover area is like a gold color. Other 3 silver color. Stopping now before I break something. Getting frustrated w/ phone/ pictures thing.

[luvmy40]

White smoke and contaminated oil indicates a blown head gasket most often.

[luvmy40]

Does the smoke smell "sweet" or like gasoline?

[Popsnana19655]

It's water for sure. Left rear plug area wet and oily. valve cover discolored from others

[cowpuc]

I am wayyyy to tired to go out and pull the covers on my 83 and see if this is applicable to the left rear pot cause I have been chasing a three year old all over the county today but here is a video of mine that may,, or may not be of use here.. Other than this transfer tube (if there is one on the left rear,, number 1 pot) I cant quite think of what would put coolant on the exterior upper part of the head... Take a look here Pops and tell us what you think:

 

[Popsnana19655]

Thank you puc. That may be the problem. Posted a picture of the area that is greasy. First oil change no water in oil. But the air cleaner had a milkshake in it. So I cleaned the twinky box. Thought that was the problem Had a small drip. Added gasket sealer waited a hour then I torked it down. Replaced fluids. That when I got the full milkshake

. There's a water jacket there. It goes thru The cam chain . So I hope it's the o-rings. I carry that many tools with me too. Been up watching videos all night.

[Patch]

Thank you puc. That may be the problem. Posted a picture of the area that is greasy. First oil change no water in oil. But the air cleaner had a milkshake in it. So I cleaned the twinky box. Thought that was the problem Had a small drip. Added gasket sealer waited a hour then I torked it down. Replaced fluids. That when I got the full milkshake

. There's a water jacket there. It goes thru The cam chain . So I hope it's the o-rings. I carry that many tools with me too. Been up watching videos all night.

 

 

The air box should in theory only draw in fume, of course when riding you cause splash or slush in the crankcase and some oil gets drawn up the tube.

Another issue that can cause this is overfilling.

But we have to also consider blow-by which will cause excessive crankcase pressure.

That of course does not explain the milkshake you found in the air box tho.

 

If you are putting out white smoke from the tailpipe then you need to check compression first before you chase your tail into the dirt.

[Popsnana19655]

In my lntro I put a picture. There's a mess in that area. Still have to do the a compression test.

[saddlebum]

when your oil turns into a creamy milk shake you can be assured coolant is getting into the crankcase. will usually separate after the bike sits undisturbed for a while' as in let it sit overnight and then crack the oil drain plug slowly to see if coolant runs out of the crankcase. Usual causes are blown head gasket cracked cylinder or cracked head. When the bike runs the oil and coolant blend to create that tasty looking mocha milkshake, which of course works its way through out the engine.

Another method is You can drain the oil and leave the plug out then pressurize the cooling system and leave it under pressure even overnight. A modified rad cap with constant air supply regulated at 14 psi is the ideal setup but a hand pressure tester will work as well just need to kkep building the pressure up. Put a catch tray under the drain plug and watch for coolant coming out. If does you have varified that one of the three possible causes may exist.

Once you varified coolant coming out of the oil drain hole your only option now is a tear down. The cylinder that is spotless clean will be the one leaking. Inspect the head gasket for tell tale signs of coolant moving from a water gallery to the cylinder or between water gallery and oil gallery. If you find such evidence use an accurate straight edge to check Block and head for flatness. If you find a flaw in the head gasket and the block and head check out ok for flatness then you may get away with a head gasket. If no fault can be found then head and block should be checked fro cracks.

[Popsnana19655]

Got the pressure tester. Got her parked in the backyard so she can see the road. Got to spray her off. Drain the last of the oil & water. Let y'all know what I find.

[Popsnana19655]

I did the water compression test. Left rear cylinder number one filled with water carburetor everything and water came out of the frame top right hand corner of the picture crossbar not sure why water in the frame the crossbar under the seat behind the motor right by the wiring. And I'm in the crossbar the frame I moved everything and water in the frame

[cowpuc]

Poppa,, sorry we could not hook up on the phone,, I am lost for words on the water coming out of the frame my friend!! That is crazy!!  Did you check it,, maybe taste a small drip of it,, to see if it was coolant?? For the life of me I can not imagine why that is... You living in Missori,, is it possible that you have a flood damaged bike?  Maybe it spent some time underwater?? Unreal!! THANKS FOR THE PIC!!

Puc

[vzuden]

could it be spraying coolant upwards towards the frame from a leaking coolant hose?

[saddlebum]

17 hours ago, vzuden said:

could it be spraying coolant upwards towards the frame from a leaking coolant hose?

Or really bad head gasket if it is both leaking internally and externally or worse a long crack in the head. Maybe it had an external leak such as a hose to start with and was then run without coolant resulting in a cracked head or block after the fact. In any case none of this sounds good. Previous owner may have run water in it and failed to replace it with coolant in the winter and it froze and cracked something. Really sorry to be only able to offer dooms day suggestions but nothing simple comes to mind given your description of symptoms.

[cowpuc]

4 hours ago, saddlebum said:

Or really bad head gasket if it is both leaking internally and externally or worse a long crack in the head. Maybe it had an external leak such as a hose to start with and was then run without coolant resulting in a cracked head or block after the fact. In any case none of this sounds good. Previous owner may have run water in it and failed to replace it with coolant in the winter and it froze and cracked something. Really sorry to be only able to offer dooms day suggestions but nothing simple comes to mind given your description of symptoms.

FINALLY got to chat with @Popsnana19655 on the phone! GREAT people!! Other than an AWESOME southern accent which I totally love (my grandparents were southerners from Lil Rock) - I actually think Pops and I are related!! He and his wife are big time tent droppers and BIG TIME lovers of riding beat up ol scoots with no second gear just like Tip and I too LOL!!  Anyway,, chatting with Pops,, it occurred to my pea size brain that the over flow hoses for the carbs actually exit via the upper frame area via a small bracket that captures the four hoses before they head down to exit in front of the rear shock.. Ok,, this may sound wayyyyyyyy out there in left field but on the 5 MK1's I have retired and on the one I am currently working on chasing out past 250k miles too,, that is how those hoses are/were routed,,right or wrong that is how they are in my memory.  When talking to Pops, it sounded like he was getting a LOT of water accumulating above the piston on the number 1 pot when pressurizing the radiator to test the system,, enough to easily over flow the whole carb..  It occurred to us that it would be completely possible for the carb to be over whelmed enough in its float bowl with water that the overflow hose could actually be flowing water and if that hose had a crack in it at the bend up there on the frame that indeed water could easily appear as coming from the frame. I am not sure but I believe that is what Pops found!! Now lets see if I am right? What say you Pops?  

[rbig1]

you know puc i didnt even give those overflows a thought. so that water has to be making its way through the intake passage.  If thats the case a head may fix it.

17 minutes ago, cowpuc said:

FINALLY got to chat with @Popsnana19655 on the phone! GREAT people!! Other than an AWESOME southern accent which I totally love (my grandparents were southerners from Lil Rock) - I actually think Pops and I are related!! He and his wife are big time tent droppers and BIG TIME lovers of riding beat up ol scoots with no second gear just like Tip and I too LOL!!  Anyway,, chatting with Pops,, it occurred to my pea size brain that the over flow hoses for the carbs actually exit via the upper frame area via a small bracket that captures the four hoses before they head down to exit in front of the rear shock.. Ok,, this may sound wayyyyyyyy out there in left field but on the 5 MK1's I have retired and on the one I am currently working on chasing out past 250k miles too,, that is how those hoses are/were routed,,right or wrong that is how they are in my memory.  When talking to Pops, it sounded like he was getting a LOT of water accumulating above the piston on the number 1 pot when pressurizing the radiator to test the system,, enough to easily over flow the whole carb..  It occurred to us that it would be completely possible for the carb to be over whelmed enough in its float bowl with water that the overflow hose could actually be flowing water and if that hose had a crack in it at the bend up there on the frame that indeed water could easily appear as coming from the frame. I am not sure but I believe that is what Pops found!! Now lets see if I am right? What say you Pops?  

 

[cowpuc]

58 minutes ago, rbig1 said:

you know puc i didnt even give those overflows a thought. so that water has to be making its way through the intake passage.  If thats the case a head may fix it.

 

I hear ya Rod!  Was listening to Pops tell me about the leaking frame issue. I was lost for words which, as you of all people know, is really unusual for my backyard mechanican mind.. The ONLY thing I could think of while he was explaining what he was seeing was that maybe he had landed a scoot that was a flood bike and the frame was full of water.  I asked if the frame leak increased with flow as he pumped up the raditator pressure test we mentioned to him to try.. Astonishingly he said YES,, could not believe what I was hearing.. He then said something that made me think of those overflows,, he said he was also getting a stream of water coming out of the sync nipple for that pot!! For some reason, my normally unreasonable back yard mechanican brain pictured the carb right above that nipple on that intake manifold filling with, and overflowing with coolant..  When asked, Pops said that indeed,, that was exactly what he was seeing!! All of a sudden my pea brain went PING - I bet the float bowl is filling with coolant from backflow coming thru the carb body and is flowing thru the overflows!!  All my bikes had the overflows gather together like a set of plug wires along a manifold on a  v-8 right at the top of the frame uprights on that crossbar that sets in front of the fuel tank.. There is a small hoop of metal thats opening is just large enough for the 4 hoses to lay in,, keeps them in order.  That  area that Pops said his frame was leaking matched up with my minds eyes memory of where number 1 carbs overflow would have laid on my bikes,, ironically exactly where he said his frame was leaking. CRAZY!!   Got one strange mind dont I LOL..  Yep,, last I chatted with him, he and both agreed that IF what my pea brain was imagining,, the prospect of the whole issue being tied to a blown head gasket was increased substantially!! I asked Pops if he was gonna fix it,, OHHH HECK YES was his answer!! GET ER DONE POPS!! THE ROAD AWAITS YOU AND YOUR MIGHTY,,  BEST TOURING BIKE OF ALL TIME,, 1983 Yamaha Venture with no 2nd gear!! 

Puc 

[Popsnana19655]

Water was from the carburetor overflow tube I will be starting the tear down after doctor appointment. Anyone got a link for a cheap gasket set. 83 xvz 1200

[cowpuc]

14 minutes ago, Popsnana19655 said:

Water was from the carburetor overflow tube I will be starting the tear down after doctor appointment. Anyone got a link for a cheap gasket set. 83 xvz 1200

Will check my supply of parts Pops,, I got a TON of junk left over from riding em since 87,, I may have a set.. If not,, I would dig thru E-Bay..  Personally though my friend,, I would pull it down first and make sure it is only a top end gasket set you will need.. It is not impossible that a reporpused head or block may also be in order..  At 28.99, Yamaha parts house/Babbitts here in Muskegon Mi does show that head gasket available - if nothing else you could just grab a new OEM and do one side.. Here is a link to them:https://www.yamahapartshouse.com/oemparts/a/yam/50042475f8700209bc787e26/cylinder-head

 

[saddlebum]

good call on coolant entering  the Carb from the cylinder Puc. 

[Patch]

First thing I'd like to comment on is the ease of reading in this new format...

So a couple of thoughts to share and think on when coming up with the repairs:

The back flow from jugs to carb blows is a bit hard to understand for me perhaps I am just reading it wrong.

But the only way to the carbs is past the valve seats under the compression stroke. That said with blown head gaskets one would think that thee path of least resistance would be other than the seats. That said then likely the valve seats and valves would need facing.

We have seen these bikes hit way too high compression readings, as was the surprise with Luv's bike some years back, I was amazed that the head gaskets weren't leaking or other issues apart from the per detonation it was experiencing. Bares asking what the compression number are on the jugs not yet leaking.

Another concern I would have: Are the rings fractured or broken? This would also apply to ring landings. The reason being is that the bike was run on the good jugs which obviously place an compressible fluid between the TDC and chambers; that has to of had effect unless the fluid was compressed out thru and out to atmosphere. This can mean a whole host of potential issues which include journals rods wrist pins and bosses.

Should you choose to rebuild I would suggest you expect to do both sides, then you will want to measure off the decks the TDC's to ensure no bottom end damage!

If they show or prove spec then a washing of the jug walls will be in order to remove the varnishing cause over time and the coolant.

While there check heads...

Or speak to Casey about the unit he has, maybe it would be a a less expensive fixerupper

just some thoughts

[Popsnana19655]

Sorry it has taken so long to get back to y'all. Been little under weather and weathers been bad. I started the breaking down bike yesterday. Got alot of broken tabs and cracks in the plastics fairing. Was lots of zip ties. Windshields good. Lol. 

Questions for y'all ? Been using the maintenance video posted on page 4 of 83 tech and talk. Old VHS tapes shop class. As a guide. Think I am at TDC OR 180 OUT. 

got the fairing off, rear master, brake lever, shifter and pegs. Radiator and carburetor. And exhaust pipes. Doing starter,coolent area.

Now do I need to pull the leakage, clutch, and gear cover. Basically opening the motor before I pull it out. Want to put it on bench look at it ..I know lines ,hoses,wirers and stuff out of the way first. Got lots of pictures for putting her back together. Wind gusts 20-25mph 85 degrees today. 

[Popsnana19655]

 

[cowpuc]

5 hours ago, Popsnana19655 said:

Sorry it has taken so long to get back to y'all. Been little under weather and weathers been bad. I started the breaking down bike yesterday. Got alot of broken tabs and cracks in the plastics fairing. Was lots of zip ties. Windshields good. Lol. 

Questions for y'all ? Been using the maintenance video posted on page 4 of 83 tech and talk. Old VHS tapes shop class. As a guide. Think I am at TDC OR 180 OUT. 

got the fairing off, rear master, brake lever, shifter and pegs. Radiator and carburetor. And exhaust pipes. Doing starter,coolent area.

Now do I need to pull the leakage, clutch, and gear cover. Basically opening the motor before I pull it out. Want to put it on bench look at it ..I know lines ,hoses,wirers and stuff out of the way first. Got lots of pictures for putting her back together. Wind gusts 20-25mph 85 degrees today. 

Nope Pops and personally I would not remove the stator cover, clutch cover and/or forward bevel gear cover before pulling the motor cause I would be concerned with damaging something internally during the motor pull myself..  I am not a real big one a powerwashing my scoot cause I would rather ride and leave any chance of getting water into places I dont want water BUT,, if it were mine, I would hit it with a powerwasher (staying away from direct spray on electrical connections and bearing areas) cause I do like to work clean, then go to yanking external engine hardware,, strip er down, pull the rear wheel/drive shaft from forward bevel, drop the bolts out of the frame and yank that puppy.  Take some pics and a vid for us!!!

Puc

PS - glad you are feeling better!!!

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by cowpuc
forgot to tell Pops I was glad to hear he was feeling better!