Is TCI going bad?

[SpencerPJ]

What would a sign be that the TCI is going bad? I have random glitchy electrical gremlin at times. On occasion, driving along cruising speed, and bam, dead. Sometimes it refires and goes on without ever stopping. It has happened a few times this summer. Once I pulled over, key off, key on, restarted and went a few weeks. It does not seem to be fuel pump related, seems electrical. Any suggestions or advise what to look for if/when it does it again. I sure hate to get stranded in bfe riding in the country.

 

Years ago I put my tci on my airbox, never sees water, ever, but it is original.

[Ipleedthe5th]

You can check your wires first but it sounds like it probably is the TCI, my bike did something similar and it got progressively worse. Would definitely recommend doing the relocation and upgrade to the Ignitech replacement. Its a couple hundred bucks but worth every penny. Being a "boom" dead instead of a puttering out sounds more like sudden stop of ignition rather than the puttering out of low fuel pressure.

[Patch]

What would a sign be that the TCI is going bad? I have random glitchy electrical gremlin at times. On occasion, driving along cruising speed, and bam, dead. Sometimes it refires and goes on without ever stopping. It has happened a few times this summer. Once I pulled over, key off, key on, restarted and went a few weeks. It does not seem to be fuel pump related, seems electrical. Any suggestions or advise what to look for if/when it does it again. I sure hate to get stranded in bfe riding in the country.

 

Years ago I put my tci on my airbox, never sees water, ever, but it is original.

 

 

EH Spence,

For my money I'd look at the ignition switch first, then (year/model dependent) kill circuit which would include the stand switch.

Next it would be grounds and power to the coils.

from there I would check the connection from the Igniters the complete pigtail back to the TCI.

 

The TCI itself does not to me, reason out at if it were the case it would flat line or at the very least be consistent as to or for how long it will run before it heats enough to open the circuit!

just how how I see it from here;)

[SpencerPJ]

EH Spence,

For my money I'd look at the ignition switch first, then (year/model dependent) kill circuit which would include the stand switch.

Next it would be grounds and power to the coils.

from there I would check the connection from the Igniters the complete pigtail back to the TCI.

 

The TCI itself does not to me, reason out at if it were the case it would flat line or at the very least be consistent as to or for how long it will run before it heats enough to open the circuit!

just how how I see it from here;)

 

Thanks Patch,

Couple years back, by side stand broke, bike went over and a few things have acted up ever since. The dang fuel gauge, etc. I have chased wires, grounds, etc. Could the computer monitor thingy up in the dash cause this fit? I have not chased the ignition and kill switch, good cleanings certainly couldn't hurt.

[Patch]

For sure a good cleaning in the ignition switch at this age is a good idea, be ready to rebuild contacts or the switch itself.

 

The fuel problem because the bike fell over is a likely bent rod leading to the float, at least expected with frame tanks that causes a calibration issue.

 

But take a look at the 3 clips @dingy put together, not hard to see how if you still run a stand switch this could simulate what you are experiencing!

I don't recommend a permanent side stand bypass but for sake of troubleshooting I would consider it!

 

Take note of the mid & down portion of #2 compared to riding status - see it - Diode Ass. & Neutral switch fall out of the equation!

But side stand, Ingitor and Tip Over is added and in play!

 

Of course we trust the fuse carriage, right

http://file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/37977%20(1).pdf

 

So is where I would go but I don't have to remind you Spence the hall senors can fail at high temps and work fine at low temps, so I would knock it off the check list.

[RDawson]

Do the 1st gens have a tip switch. My sister has a Goldwing trike that was doing the same thing, was a tip over switch. Before they found it she got pretty good pulling the clutch, turning key off and on, and releasing the clutch without losing hardly any speed.

[Patch]

Do the 1st gens have a tip switch. My sister has a Goldwing trike that was doing the same thing, was a tip over switch. Before they found it she got pretty good pulling the clutch, turning key off and on, and releasing the clutch without losing hardly any speed.

 

 

Yes according the the schematic it shows it.This should be just an on or off switch that may be off center a bit due to age or may have nothing to do with Spence's problem but worth keeping in mind, if it jumps due to being stuck high it would kill the bike because it is part of the RUN circuit, and we know since falling over.....

 

Now if the dash and lights quit then you can assume it is likely the ignition switch

[SpencerPJ]

For sure a good cleaning in the ignition switch at this age is a good idea, be ready to rebuild contacts or the switch itself.

 

The fuel problem because the bike fell over is a likely bent rod leading to the float, at least expected with frame tanks that causes a calibration issue.

 

But take a look at the 3 clips dingy put together, not hard to see how if you still run a stand switch this could simulate what you are experiencing!

I don't recommend a permanent side stand bypass but for sake of troubleshooting I would consider it!

 

Take note of the mid & down portion of #2 compared to riding status - see it - Diode Ass. & Neutral switch fall out of the equation!

But side stand, Ingitor and Tip Over is added and in play!

 

Of course we trust the fuse carriage, right

http://file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/37977%20(1).pdf

 

So is where I would go but I don't have to remind you Spence the hall senors can fail at high temps and work fine at low temps, so I would knock it off the check list.

 

I have had the dang float out several times, it works fine in the open, not on bike. But the rod and float do not touch anything inside, and I've run an additional ground to the area.

I will get my electronics cleaner out and at least start with the above suggestions.

What the heck are 'hall sensors' ?

I will keep an eye on dash lights during a failure to point towards ignition switch. Might be hard, I only go for rides on sunny afternoons, lol.

Thanks, I will report back and findings.

[Patch]

I remember fooling with them on the 2 Ventures we ran as well. Think I found the problem on the dash circuit board? If I not mistaken Keven pointed me to a bypass on the MKll 1990?

But as you say it works when out of the tank so likely she just want so fiddling.

Hall sensors are the "pickup coils" a pretty straightforward test to do.

[SpencerPJ]

I remember fooling with them on the 2 Ventures we ran as well. Think I found the problem on the dash circuit board? If I not mistaken Keven pointed me to a bypass on the MKll 1990?

But as you say it works when out of the tank so likely she just want so fiddling.

Hall sensors are the "pickup coils" a pretty straightforward test to do.

 

Thanks. after investigating pickup coils, definitely seems like it could be the culprit. I will also add, I am running on an old battery, like 9 years old. I keep it on a tender, starts fine, not so much after a couple days not on the tender. Do you think the continuous charging could be causing heating issues in the ignition system? I read that bad batteries cause all sorts of electrical problems. I'll at least move that up the list to replace very soon.

 

I cleaned misc things as suggested, took for 1.5 hr ride. Rode fine until the end, then missed a couple times. Once home, double checking side stand swith etc, all seems to work correctly, then it sat for for 1 hr, then checked the battery just sitting, no load, 12.88.

 

Also, if the TCI was going bad, what would be a main symptom?

[Patch]

Thanks. after investigating pickup coils, definitely seems like it could be the culprit. I will also add, I am running on an old battery, like 9 years old. I keep it on a tender, starts fine, not so much after a couple days not on the tender. Do you think the continuous charging could be causing heating issues in the ignition system? NO as the circuit is open

 

I read that bad batteries cause all sorts of electrical problems. True

 

I'll at least move that up the list to replace very soon.

 

I cleaned misc things as suggested, took for 1.5 hr ride. Rode fine until the end, then missed a couple times. Well miss as you word here can easily be the pickups but the coils can fail the under the same conditions: for example as they heat they expand, if you've had plugs misfire for a long time due to ware or bad caps.... then that coil that fires it will need to find another path which causes more heat and begins to brake down the insulating coating.... Its nowt that rare a problem

Once home, double checking side stand swith etc, all seems to work correctly, then it sat for for 1 hr, then checked the battery just sitting, no load, 12.88.

 

Also, if the TCI was going bad, what would be a main symptom?

 

So some years back here with the same model a member just couldn't see and understand the check list pointed to the pickups, and piece by piece he swapped out everything else first, I hung to the end but look one component can cause another to fail down the line. Stick to logic, clear each check box before changing parts, we learn and grow our confidence this way and the missing understanding's then get filled in.... Heat and resistance are buddies accepting that posing the question on how they are getting along at higher temps

[SpencerPJ]

I've been reading and edumakating myself. Scary I know. I'm not sure I am smart enough to operate my basic meter to test coils etc. And then there is the issue that things are fine until good and warmed up. I found some old threads that point towards cleaning this contact and that, certainly where I need to begin.

[Patch]

I've been reading and edumakating myself. Scary I know. I'm not sure I am smart enough to operate my basic meter to test coils etc. And then there is the issue that things are fine until good and warmed up. I found some old threads that point towards cleaning this contact and that, certainly where I need to begin.

 

 

Well I am sure we have one of themdarsmartguys kickin round somerwheres' ?? Lets see if we can get him dressed long enough to walk you thru it, hmm

 

Mind U's stay away from his offering of rum balls @Flyinfool wherearthou

[Prairiehammer]

What would a sign be that the TCI is going bad? I have random glitchy electrical gremlin at times. On occasion, driving along cruising speed, and bam, dead. Sometimes it refires and goes on without ever stopping. It has happened a few times this summer. Once I pulled over, key off, key on, restarted and went a few weeks. It does not seem to be fuel pump related, seems electrical. Any suggestions or advise what to look for if/when it does it again. I sure hate to get stranded in bfe riding in the country.

 

Years ago I put my tci on my airbox, never sees water, ever, but it is original.

 

There are a myriad of electrical possibilities, but the first one I would check is the IGNITION fuse. Are you still running with the stock fuse block? It is extremely common to have fuse block issues, due to age.

Obviously, the glass fuse itself is not blown, but the spring clips that hold the fuse often become weak and or corroded. Intermittent operation is a result.

[SpencerPJ]

There are a myriad of electrical possibilities, but the first one I would check is the IGNITION fuse. Are you still running with the stock fuse block? It is extremely common to have fuse block issues, due to age.

Obviously, the glass fuse itself is not blown, but the spring clips that hold the fuse often become weak and or corroded. Intermittent operation is a result.

 

Thanks for response. Yesterday I took front end of fairing apart, side covers, and went over every electrical connection I could, down on left side pickup coils, etc. I took for a short ride, no issues. But the issues tend to come during a longer ride, after things heat up. I do still have the original fuse block, checked all them, exchanged ignition fuse with turnsignal fuse (both 15A), all the fuse sit tight, I am pretty certain that is not the problem. I did not dig under the battery yet, I have tested my battery, and at 8+ years old, still holds charge fine, charging circuit seems fine, while riding the voltage gauge seems fine, I don't think that's the culprit. I need to take for longer ride, weather permitting this weekend. Any other suggestions? If I have an issue I know I need to dig under battery, look at side stand switch and kill switch, but with basic testing, they seem to work fine and nothing ever glitchy. Bike is low mileage and sits in a garage, so not overly exposed to the elements.

[Patch]

Thanks for response. Yesterday I took front end of fairing apart, side covers, and went over every electrical connection I could, down on left side pickup coils, etc. I took for a short ride, no issues. But the issues tend to come during a longer ride, after things heat up. I do still have the original fuse block, checked all them, exchanged ignition fuse with turnsignal fuse (both 15A), all the fuse sit tight, I am pretty certain that is not the problem. I did not dig under the battery yet, I have tested my battery, and at 8+ years old, still holds charge fine, charging circuit seems fine, while riding the voltage gauge seems fine, I don't think that's the culprit. I need to take for longer ride, weather permitting this weekend. Any other suggestions? If I have an issue I know I need to dig under battery, look at side stand switch and kill switch, but with basic testing, they seem to work fine and nothing ever glitchy. Bike is low mileage and sits in a garage, so not overly exposed to the elements.

 

 

So here are some thoughts:

 

The shamanistic's I posted show side stand switch but Spence in my experience bikes before 86 did not come stock with them tho many including me installed them for safety reasons. When the stand spring weakens bumps can make the stand bounce causing the circuit to cut in and out.

 

However, because you say it has more to do with long rides and heat I tend to think it is a resistance problem over old coils of some type; meaning ignition coils or pickup coils.

 

I've plaid with electrical problems plenty, I still have an old meter in top condition I purchased from Radio Shack back in the 80's, sits on top of one of one of my boxes as tho it still has purpose, but it doesn't.

I have as you likely know young flock come by with troubleshooting issues, some with nice modern equipment lots of drop down menus and its a big blabla instead of numbers they pitch features.

 

I use a simple automatic meter I think they run for $30.ish dollars out here, and it makes reading OHM's fast and easy. About the size of a pack of smokes and fits in all my rides, has rubber bumpers too.

Get one of those.

 

Measure the resistance/OHM's cold both ignition coils and pickup coils and note it, compare those readings to the book values, take it for a ride where if she acts up she cant leave you stranded, then measure the same components note them down. Then post and we'll know weather they are the problem or we need to look elsewhere

 

Throwing parts at and old bike becomes expensive and disappointing.

 

We'll stay tuned

[SpencerPJ]

Thanks Patch. I do have a couple meters that I use for AC and DC and continuity, etc, but never really dug into measuring resistance and oms, how etc. Maybe I'll be learning

 

My thinking if it were ignition coils, I assume there are 4, would all them die at once. It's not typically a single cylinder popping type of miss, it's an all dead type, that leads me thinking more along the pickup coils, and why I was originally thinking tci.

 

ps: my 83 side stand switch came part of bike, and shows as an error in the computer monitor when activated in gear. Not saying something internal isn't amuk, but does not show any symptoms.

[Patch]

Thanks Patch. I do have a couple meters that I use for AC and DC and continuity, etc, but never really dug into measuring resistance and oms, how etc. Maybe I'll be learning

 

My thinking if it were ignition coils, I assume there are 4, would all them die at once. It's not typically a single cylinder popping type of miss, it's an all dead type, that leads me thinking more along the pickup coils, and why I was originally thinking tci.

 

ps: my 83 side stand switch came part of bike, and shows as an error in the computer monitor when activated in gear. Not saying something internal isn't amuk, but does not show any symptoms.

 

I am going to open the schematics and take a fresh look right now Spence I'll get back to you with a fresh look at things.

 

Now to be clear, when the bike fails, the engine stops firing on all 4 jugs period? Its not a miss like or loss of power?

[Patch]

http://www.venturerider.org/images/tci.jpg

 

Let me know when you are ready to start. Print this off and take it and us to the shop

[SpencerPJ]

Now to be clear, when the bike fails, the engine stops firing on all 4 jugs period? Its not a miss like or loss of power?

 

So what is the difference between not firing on all 4 jugs or loss of power? It is not like a single cylinder is dropping out, it's like tach goes to zero, but that is something else I need to confirm.

 

I printed that schematic, wow, it's actually at a level I can understand. Is that the work of Dingy, I think I stumbled across it when looking? I need to watch some youtube tutorials for using a meter, but I think I might be able to do this.

 

So I should record all these measurements at a cold start, and then after a ride, and take the meter along and if it acts up, stop, unplug the tci and check? Good thing my tci is duck taped to the top of my airbox, very easy access.

[Flyinfool]

Someone woke me up...... Patch.

 

Unfortunately there is no test for the TCI, you just eliminate everything else and then it must be the TCI.

As mentioned above there are a LOT of things that can cause you symptoms, and there is nothing harder than to track down an intermittent issue that only happens while riding. It may take a while, but we will get there.

 

I am cheap and lazy so I always do more work to positively isolate the problem before I start spending money, So I do the cheap and easy tests first.

 

My first thoughts as the symptoms are stated.

 

1. It is having the issues at the end of a long ride.

2. the battery is 9 YEARS OLD.

3. The battery is always on a tender.

 

Check your charging voltage, If it is a little low the battery could be running down through the ride and is having issues maintaining ignition at the end of the ride.

 

Load test the battery. Testing the battery is easy, most auto parts houses will load test it for free. Most of them sell enough legit batteries with the free service that they do not need to cheat especially the name brand stores.

 

Dirty connections can also cause a low charge rate. clean BOTH sides of the connections, also look at the connection between the terminal and where it is crimped onto the wire. You can not get in there to clean it but if you can see corrosion in there it may be time for new wires. Remember all wires have 2 ends, clean both ends. I have seen connections that LOOK clean have a high resistance, so actually clean them whether they look good or not.

 

You mentioned that the tach drops to zero, the tach is driven from the #2 ignition coil. So if the tach drops to zero you know that #2 is not firing, (or the wire between #2 coil and tach is bad, very very rare. As in I have never heard of it actually happening.)

 

This should keep you busy for a little while while I look some stuff up from when I had a similar issue.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Flyinfool

[Patch]

QUOTE=SpencerPJ;1084417]So what is the difference between not firing on all 4 jugs or loss of power? . Well it can miss every other beat or combustion cycle which becomes a moving issue but under less power. ​So slow to regain rpm and the feeling of torque!

It is not like a single cylinder is dropping out, it's like tach goes to zero, but that is something else I need to confirm.

If we refer to the problem as the engine just rapidly dies out then that is a engine stall which means it has either run out of fuel or the means to ignite the fuel!

 

If the dash board goes out as well then that would point to the ignition switch. If it stalls but then "relights" then that would point to the run/kill circuit!

 

I printed that schematic, wow, it's actually at a level I can understand. Is that the work of Dingy, I think I stumbled across it when looking? I need to watch some youtube tutorials for using a meter, but I think I might be able to do this.

 

I agree Spence the posting is very simple to follow and the info is all right there in front of you. and will include how the TCI is seeing or reading the inputs because the connecting plugs are all still in play if you find a bad reading you can then address the connections back to each component!

So I should record all these measurements at a cold start, and then after a ride, and take the meter along and if it acts up, stop, unplug the tci and check? Good thing my tci is duck taped to the top of my airbox, very easy access.

 

Yes that would be best

[Patch]

Someone woke me up...... Patch.

 

Jeez man I was beginning to wonder if you were ever going to get out from under Ms. America

 

 

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?15135-TCI-testing-info

[SpencerPJ]

So to FlyingFool. Battery: I tested after my ride yesterday, at 12.88, 24 hrs after ride, no tender 12.68. I think that is acceptable? Charging while running, voltage climbs up to 14+ with hand held meter just revving, seemed normal operation, I did not record exact numbers. Riding the meter on the bike generally shows 14 riding, down to maybe 12.5 when sitting at a stop light. I probably don't need to put it on my tender, sometimes I'll run a few short errands, then it will sit for a week, then it gets ornery to start. Still with original 2 brush starter and original cables, I know, disappointing. I have added a ground, and acts acceptable under hot starts, has never failed me, and I have tested the fact that I can easily push start my warmed up bike

I probably should have it load tested, but then again, I probably should buy a new one.. I'm cheap too...

 

Patch: That schematic was simple enough for me.

 

Ignition coils

Cold= 3.8, 3.9, 3.8, 3.8

Hot after a 60 mile ride today = 4.1, 4.0, 3.9, 4.0

 

Pickup coils

Cold = 115, 116, 116, 116

Hot after 60 mile ride = 136.8, 142.3, 143.3, 143.4

 

So as stated, took it for a ride, rode it like I stole it.

No issues, rode great !

 

Did unplugging and re plugging every visible connection, find and correct a bad connection?

Is it waiting to fail on my 2 hr ride tomorrow?

Is it wait to fail when I'm in the country with no cell service.

 

I certainly will try and do a better job understanding exactly what happens with the tach, the dash, and all if it happens again.

 

Any other advise or things to watch for are welcomed, but until it acts up again, I don't know how I can troubleshoot. I will carry my meter and notes.

[Flyinfool]

OK I found the threads from when I had my problem.

 

This is the thread where the issue first started while I was on the road.

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?79093-I-did-not-make-it

 

This is the thread where I went through everything to find and fix it.

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?79290-Hold-your-breath-I-m-goin-in&highlight=ground+wire

Edited August 29, 2020 by Flyinfool