Can't start my 83

[saddlebum]

Also just food for thought did you try putting power directly to the starter to see if the starter itself is ok. the only reason I ask is because your complaint sounds a lot like what I ran into last year which decided to happen while out on a ride and Carl ended up push starting me every time we stopped were there was no hill to take advantage of. I even tried bridging the two big studs on the starter sol which should have put power straight to the starter but no response. When I got the bike home I did all the normal checks than just fed power directly to the starter which did not respond at all. I pulled the starter out opened it up and it was fried inside.

[Patch]

Well Ben his starter could be toast but he has power across the relay when he shouldn't.

And yet nothing from the starter. So it could be that the stuck relay has to much carbon to pass power, and his starter was the cause, right.

[saddlebum]

Well Ben his starter could be toast but he has power across the relay when he shouldn't.

And yet nothing from the starter. So it could be that the stuck relay has to much carbon to pass power, and his starter was the cause, right.

Patch you could be right there when the contacts in the solenoid start to pit they initially start to not pass enough currant to the starter causing intermittent slow cranks. Eventually the contacts weld together causing constant power on both studs. but not passing enough currant for the starter to run constantly but may be enough to do internal damage.

[Patch]

well I see he's off line now so I'll say good nite Ben, catch up tomorrow!

[saddlebum]

well I see he's off line now so I'll say good nite Ben, catch up tomorrow!

ok good night

[Venture Capitalist]

ok I have the relay here in the house. I checked resistance on all different settings and didn't do anything. but before I pulled it I checked the non battery side with the key on and had voltage. then I taped it with screwdriver and no more voltage there so ya seems like it was stuck. now if I were to hook the battery back up without that in it should I have headlight and radio?

[Venture Capitalist]

I just read the Patch Saddlebum conversation. Sorry if I left you hanging, I hadn't seen the post about you were just going to be watching tv before I left. yes you are right saddlebum the main fuse is right next to the battery and did have an extra one inside the holder. both had continuity. before I disconnected the battery to take the relay out I also checked for power at all the fuses and they were all getting power.

[Venture Capitalist]

oh ya saddlebum you asked if I had tried to go directly to the starter and no I haven't. Don't think it would but if I went out and did the without the ignition on it wouldn't mess anything else up would it. Should just crank the engine over and not start right? Have a good night thanks for the help guys

[Patch]

oh ya saddlebum you asked if I had tried to go directly to the starter and no I haven't. Don't think it would but if I went out and did the without the ignition on it wouldn't mess anything else up would it. Should just crank the engine over and not start right? Have a good night thanks for the help guys

 

 

Yup

[saddlebum]

Yup

Yes Just as Patch said. Also there is no fuse to the large posts on the solenoid it just goes from one post directly to the battery and from the other post directly to the starter and so if you bridge those two cable with something like a screw driver even with the ignition off the starter should turn over if your connections are good. Also the statment you made about tapping the solenoid pretty much indicates that the contacts inside have pitted and partially welded together so for sure you will have to replace the solenoid. If you touch the two large wires together and the starter cranks the engine over (and yes you can leave the key off the engine just wont start) your starter is ok Provided it sounds healthy and strong. If not than either the starter is bad or there is a bad connection to the starter (which is not likely but possible) So then just run a cable from the battery directly to the starter If it now cranks check your cables if not starter is pooched. BTW make sure in either case your ground connections are all good.

 

The starter may have been on its way out for some time based on the fact that you said it cranks slow or not at all specially when hott and is Ok once cooled down. this usually will indicate worn starter bushings and/or bearings. As a result the starter then draws higher than normal currant causing arcing across the solenoid contacts, eventually causing pitting and finally partial welding of the contacts. So if the starter is bad or on its way out even though putting power directly to it seems to indicate it may be ok, it will eventually destroy the new solenoid. My advice here is remove the starter stick it in the vice and test it in the vice if it zings over nicely its probably ok but if turns over and sounds sluggish or growly then it faulty. If it does sound ok since you have it on the bench I would probably open it up and check it internally It would be a good time to clean up the armature and check/or replace the brushes. If its bad you wil get a nasty smell the minute you open it up.

[Patch]

Another way because you live in an apartment block is to remove the spark plugs and do the test Bum mentioned. While letting it spin for say 30 seconds to warm it, then re install one plug at a time and repeat the test, the closer you get to a full deck the slower the starter will turn, representing load!

Once you are at a full deck then you will see if the starter can spin it high enough to start.

 

As far as I can make out tho you still have issues that we haven't addressed, like why is the power acc. not lighting? That could be problematic?

I asked both Puc and Flynfool to drop by when they have time.

[saddlebum]

Another way because you live in an apartment block is to remove the spark plugs and do the test Bum mentioned. While letting it spin for say 30 seconds to warm it, then re install one plug at a time and repeat the test, the closer you get to a full deck the slower the starter will turn, representing load!

Once you are at a full deck then you will see if the starter can spin it high enough to start.

 

As far as I can make out tho you still have issues that we haven't addressed, like why is the power acc. not lighting? That could be problematic?

I asked both Puc and Flynfool to drop by when they have time.

Good point Patch and those could go back to something as simple as poor/dirty connections including bad grounds. Don't trust an ohmmeter here for testing grounds and other connections. They are fine for locating open circuits but not poor connections. Ohmmeters draw very little currant and may indicate a good connection were voltage is concerned but that connection may fail once a load is requested to pass through. A better method is to use a voltmeter and a bulb such as headlight builb with a pair of wire attached. take a voltage reading at various test points and then while watching the voltage connect the test light to the same points your volt meter is connected while watching the volt meter. If the voltage only drops a volt or two when you connect the bulb your ok if it nose dives by more than a volt or two you have a bad or weak connection.

 

Another method is to use a test light (this needs to be one with a normal bulb not one of the LED types), Use the test light to bridge connections while the circuit in question is under load. If the light stays off that connection is OK. If the light glows (and the brighter it glows the worse the connection ) this indicates the currant is using the test light as a sort of detour or added bridge so to speak and than you have found a bad connection. (Think of it as only so many cars able to cross an intersection because there is a problem at the intersection and the test light is offering an alternative route for the remaining cars, so they can all get to the other side (the test light glows) but if they can all get through the intersection nobody uses the alternate route in this case the test light will not glow)

[Patch]

Good point Patch and those could go back to something as simple as poor/dirty connections including bad grounds. Don't trust an ohmmeter here for testing grounds and other connections. They are fine for locating open circuits but not poor connections. Ohmmeters draw very little currant and may indicate a good connection were voltage is concerned but that connection may fail once a load is requested to pass through. A better method is to use a voltmeter and a bulb such as headlight builb with a pair of wire attached. take a voltage reading at various test points and then while watching the voltage connect the test light to the same points your volt meter is connected while watching the volt meter. If the voltage only drops a volt or two when you connect the bulb your ok if it nose dives by more than a volt or two you have a bad or weak connection.

 

Another method is to use a test light (this needs to be one with a normal bulb not one of the LED types), Use the test light to bridge connections while the circuit in question is under load. If the light stays off that connection is OK. If the light glows (and the brighter it glows the worse the connection ) this indicates the currant is using the test light as a sort of detour or added bridge so to speak and than you have found a bad connection. (Think of it as only so many cars able to cross an intersection because there is a problem at the intersection and the test light is offering an alternative route for the remaining cars, so they can all get to the other side (the test light glows) but if they can all get through the intersection nobody uses the alternate route in this case the test light will not glow)

 

VERY OLD SCHOOL LESSON there Bum!

 

I am not going to turn the thread but that is how I test the TCI circuit as well!

No matter the switching electronic or mechanical a path to ground or its interruption can be viewed by the flash of a simple test light, you just need to know what you are looking for.

This was asked of m by Bongo some years back before I had to check out for a contract and so it never got answered, been bugging me ever since.

[saddlebum]

Hey who are you calling old :backinmyday:I won't be 67 for another month and 6 days

[Patch]

Hey who are you calling old :backinmyday:I won't be 67 for another month and 6 days

 

Well thanks for the heads up, listen how about you and Carl go out and party for your Birthday?

Send both wives up here, and I will pay special attention to them! Yaknow I am a French Gentamn

[cowpuc]

All good advice that I have read here IMHO.. Only thing I might add is that I would double check interlocks while having fun with it.. That sneaky kickstand switch has caused me pause at times but it sure sounds suspiciously like a solenoid/relay issue to me too..

[Venture Capitalist]

Alright everyone thanks for the help. We got er a step in the right direction. I had the battery on a trickle charge all night and I banged on the relay and it is no longer making a connection. So I put the battery and relay back in and walla I have lights. I tried hitting the start button and nothing. Now like saddlebum was saying should I go out and cross the two with a screwdriver. I put the messed up relay back in hoping it will get me to the parts store to buy a new one. I quess that is a moot point, if I go cross them and nothing happens then the starter would be shot and I will have to try and find another way to the parts store. All in all I guess i'm just looking for some reassurance that it won't screw anything else up if I do that. Like "Go ahead give it a shot just make sure you bring a screwdriver with you to the parts store. https://www.venturerider.org/forum/images/icons/icon6.png

[Venture Capitalist]

ooops thought that link would put an icon there

[Patch]

Alright everyone thanks for the help. We got er a step in the right direction. I had the battery on a trickle charge all night and I banged on the relay and it is no longer making a connection. So I put the battery and relay back in and walla I have lights. I tried hitting the start button and nothing. Now like saddlebum was saying should I go out and cross the two with a screwdriver. I put the messed up relay back in hoping it will get me to the parts store to buy a new one. I quess that is a moot point, if I go cross them and nothing happens then the starter would be shot and I will have to try and find another way to the parts store. All in all I guess i'm just looking for some reassurance that it won't screw anything else up if I do that. Like "Go ahead give it a shot just make sure you bring a screwdriver with you to the parts store. https://www.venturerider.org/forum/images/icons/icon6.png

 

So for easy of use you a booster set but say just the red. to the relay which is a bypass of it...

Now there was more to Bum's post so give it another looksee.

Also you might look at smaller engine starter relays like Toyota as a matter of sizing..

Keep us posted we'll likely be sitting with Mama and the brothers in the Chat room if you need us

 

Don't forget My Very Much OLDER BROTHER's comment on the closing of the start circuit, side stand

.

[Venture Capitalist]

thanks patch, yea I read that whole post. if it kicks over i'll have to pick up a test light along with the relay, and take starter apart and clean it all up. Don't get what you mean by use booster red only?

[cowpuc]

You absolutely can jumper across the solenoid without being in danger of doing damage to any of the circuitry external of the starting system,, have done it numerous times on both the V-4's and many many cars/bikes/boats thru the years.. What will probably be damaged if you do it on the solenoid posts though are the post themselves due to the amp load. It will also damage the ends of a pair of needle nose pliers or screw driver tip to as they instantly think they have become part of a welding process when you use them as jumpers.. Perhaps a better way to test it this way would be to disconnect the negative side of the battery, move the cable on battery side of the solenoid over to the starter side of the solenoid, now use the disconnected negative battery cable as a contact point for testing the circuit.. When you touch the negative cable to the negative post on the battery the starter should roll whether its in gear or not so beware.. Use this just for testing,, not for starting the bike with the key on..

Also,, just an FYI,, you can use any solenoid (I used a lawn tractor solenoid once to get me home on a month long journey out CTFW in the west - worked fine) as replacement.. Neighbor got a garden tractor?

 

PS - you can also pick up 12vdc off the battery side of the solenoid to hit the 12 volt coil inside the solenoid with 12v to see if the solenoid with close.. I am sure you know this but others reading here may not realize it..

[Flyinfool]

Ah Puc, the Yamaha solenoid is a bit different. Internally the battery side of the solenoid is connected to the small terminal for the starter switch. The starter switch provides the ground to energize the solenoid. SO putting +12 to the small terminal will do nothing. To test the solenoid you must connect +12V to the battery side of the solenoid, and then ground the small terminal for the start switch. I went around in circles a few times figuring that one out.

 

What was meant buy using the red booster, Is to use just one side of your jumper cables to connect from the + battery terminal direct to the stud on the starter. If the starter is good the engine will crank. As mentioned, this is bypassing ALL of the built in safeties. So be very sure the bike is actually in neutral, and as an extra safety put it up on the center stand. You reall do not want to be laying on the ground half under and have it jump off the side stand, that will hurt a lot waiting for someone to lift 850 lbs of bike off of you.

 

It really sounds like you have multiple issues going on at the same time, It may take us a while while working blind and online to isolate them and fix them.

[Patch]

Chit you are so right Fool it slipped my shelving that that law came into being in 86!

Who says ya gettin old?

[cowpuc]

Ah Puc, the Yamaha solenoid is a bit different. Internally the battery side of the solenoid is connected to the small terminal for the starter switch. The starter switch provides the ground to energize the solenoid. SO putting +12 to the small terminal will do nothing. To test the solenoid you must connect +12V to the battery side of the solenoid, and then ground the small terminal for the start switch. I went around in circles a few times figuring that one out.

 

What was meant buy using the red booster, Is to use just one side of your jumper cables to connect from the + battery terminal direct to the stud on the starter. If the starter is good the engine will crank. As mentioned, this is bypassing ALL of the built in safeties. So be very sure the bike is actually in neutral, and as an extra safety put it up on the center stand. You reall do not want to be laying on the ground half under and have it jump off the side stand, that will hurt a lot waiting for someone to lift 850 lbs of bike off of you.

 

It really sounds like you have multiple issues going on at the same time, It may take us a while while working blind and online to isolate them and fix them.

 

Jeff!! Glad I twisted your night up a little.. Thanks for correcting that for me brother!!

 

Short vid showing location of solenoid if anyone ever goes lookin and cant follow our fun here

 

[Flyinfool]

Another thing to check out. IF you still have the original glass fuses, it is very common for the fuse clips to go bad. When you check for power at the fuse panel, Put your voltmeter neg lead to batt neg and then check both sides of each fuse by touching the red wire to the wire, not to the fuse clip or the end of the fuse. This will ensure that you do not have a bad fuse clip. Many People replace the glass fuse block with a modern fuse block.