Transmission is stuck

[Mojankie]

Was riding down the freeway on my 96 Royal Star a few days ago when I lost all speed and power. Went to to pull it over and as I was getting to the side the rear wheel locked up. Rear tire was completely locked up, would not rotate. Got it home and checked the rear brakes, they were not the problem.

 

Jacked it up and took out the axle bolt, everything there was fine. Dropped the tire and checked the drive shaft and final drive, nothing was locked up. All looked in good shape.

 

She runs fine, when I put her in gear and let out the clutch the transmission acts like its locked up. The bike will stall out if I let the clutch out all the way. Doesn't matter what gear it is in, she dies.

 

My dad is letting me use his account here to get some answers as I have no idea where to go from here.

 

Any idea how to get her back to running would be much appreciated.

 

By the way - I have named her "Peggy".

Edited January 5, 2020 by Mojankie
Added Picure

[Marcarl]

Couple of clarifications needed.

- what exactly do you mean by: lost all power, what did you notice.

- Did you pull the drive shaft out of the bike completely.

- could be the u-joint just outside of the transmission.

[Mojankie]

Couple of clarifications needed.

- what exactly do you mean by: lost all power, what did you notice.

 

Felt like it was starting to run out of gas - could not maintain speed. - Started down shifting to exit the freeway. Bike kept feeling like something wrong was happening. Once I was slowed down to about 15/20 mph, I shifted into 1st. The rear tire locked up and I skid for about 20 feet and came to a stop along the side of the freeway. The rear tire would not move forward or back - in or out of gear.

 

- Did you pull the drive shaft out of the bike completely.

 

Yes, pulled the rear diff. and the shaft. Bike runs, I can hold in the clutch and put in in gear. As soon as I let out on the clutch, the engine lugg's down and If I let out on the clutch all the way - it will kill it.

 

- could be the u-joint just outside of the transmission.

My dad was wondering if the bearing seized on the output shaft. we are pullin the clutch basket to see if there is any issues on the clutch side of the engine.

Any video's or help on how to access the output shaft would be appreciated. Thank you.

[Marcarl]

What kind of shape is the u-joint in, is it loose?

[Patch]

“She runs fine, when I put her in gear and let out the clutch the transmission acts like its locked up. The bike will stall out if I let the clutch out all the way. Doesn't matter what gear it is in, she dies.

 

My dad was wondering if the bearing seized on the output shaft. we are pullin the clutch basket to see if there is any issues on the clutch side of the engine.”

 

 

The most difficult part of troubleshooting over the net is not getting clear answers to simple questions.

 

I see your dads point but, marcarl's question could also be a fault so why not check that box?

 

Now what your dad is mentioning has happened and is a known issue on a few bikes but not that I have heard of on these. The output bearing would have had to run dry, heat then cool as I assume it was driving well before storage!? When an output bearing seizes the bike pilot is usually catapulted forward!

 

We could try this approach: rear wheel off the ground, bike in first gear rock the wheel by hand and listen for noise before the gearbox.

Or: the wheel is off, the driveshaft is out, start the engine, place in 1st gear, release the clutch. Does it stall?

 

For all we know the brake could be seized.

Patch

[Mojankie]

What kind of shape is the u-joint in, is it loose?

 

Have not exposed the U-Joint yet.

Have to get a 35mm socket to pull the clutch basket off - then I will move onto the other side and check the u-joint. How would a u-joint cause the gradual seizing and then lock-up?

[Mojankie]

“She runs fine, when I put her in gear and let out the clutch the transmission acts like its locked up. The bike will stall out if I let the clutch out all the way. Doesn't matter what gear it is in, she dies.

 

My dad was wondering if the bearing seized on the output shaft. we are pullin the clutch basket to see if there is any issues on the clutch side of the engine.”

 

 

The most difficult part of troubleshooting over the net is not getting clear answers to simple questions.

 

I see your dads point but, marcarl's question could also be a fault so why not check that box?

 

Now what your dad is mentioning has happened and is a known issue on a few bikes but not that I have heard of on these. The output bearing would have had to run dry, heat then cool as I assume it was driving well before storage!? When an output bearing seizes the bike pilot is usually catapulted forward!

 

We could try this approach: rear wheel off the ground, bike in first gear rock the wheel by hand and listen for noise before the gearbox.

Or: the wheel is off, the driveshaft is out, start the engine, place in 1st gear, release the clutch. Does it stall?

 

For all we know the brake could be seized.

Patch

 

Or: the wheel is off, the driveshaft is out, start the engine, place in 1st gear, release the clutch. Does it stall? - Yes it stalls -

 

For all we know the brake could be seized. - rear brake? - First thing my dad had me check!

 

P

[Marcarl]

Have not exposed the U-Joint yet.

Have to get a 35mm socket to pull the clutch basket off - then I will move onto the other side and check the u-joint. How would a u-joint cause the gradual seizing and then lock-up?

It's really a hit and miss and when a part goes bad the results are very seldom identical. When a piston blows, does it always take out the high side? or when a tire blows out does it always send you for the ditch? Get my drift?

You have a stuck something somewhere, and I wouldn't be looking in the clutch basket first because it's the most work. A u-joint can break and it happens, it's not unheard of. For the time it takes, shine a flashlight into the driveshaft container and take a peek at the joint, it should be loose and movable, then move on from there. If the joint is tight, start your thinking from there. If the problem isn't at the joint and your discovery session at the basket doesn't show you anything, then you'll have to pull the engine and turn it upside down to open up the gearbox,, let's hope not,, and you would the first one to have such an issue,,, that I have heard of,,,,, not that I hear everything, I am getting older and my wife tells me I don't hear her mumblings so well anymore.

Keep us posted eh!

[Patch]

Have not exposed the U-Joint yet.

Have to get a 35mm socket to pull the clutch basket off - then I will move onto the other side and check the u-joint. How would a u-joint cause the gradual seizing and then lock-up?

 

Or: the wheel is off, the driveshaft is out, start the engine, place in 1st gear, release the clutch. Does it stall? - Yes it stalls -

 

For all we know the brake could be seized. - rear brake? - First thing my dad had me check!

 

P

 

P; the first thing when posting in our club is to understand that we are here with a true want/need to help; there is no need to feel as tho we will take experience or lack of to a mocking level.

So, having said this and with the understanding this is new to you, you can't have taken out the driveshaft in the couple of minutes between the 2 posts quoted above.

 

Marcarl suggestion is where I would start and is what I posted as well. As for the brake, if the front wheel is locked and the bikes rear wheel isn't off the floor then the same stall will happen! So the question is now, does the bike roll/push easily, say in neutral?

 

Patch

[RDawson]

In the original post you said you checked the final drive and drive shaft. If you didn't re-install those then you should be able to shine a light in the tube and see the u-joint. If you did re-install the final you have to make sure the driveshaft aligned in the u-joint, that usually takes a little work.

[videoarizona]

I'm adding my two cents:

 

Look at the U joint. It's easy to get to.

 

If the bolt broke that holds the U joint to the output shaft, it could have locked up the drive train. There were a few years where the bolts weren't treated properly during manufacture...causing them to break after years of service.

 

I would also take the pumpkin apart...the rear end...and look at the end of the drive shaft where it enters the rear end. Look to see if that sheared off as well. Mine did. Though it didn't lock anything up...just created a loud whine when decelerating.

 

These motors are very robust...so it's always best practice to look at the easiest stuff first.

 

This is my U joint looking through the drive shaft tunnel. It moved around but didn't fall anywhere so I knew it was good.

 

 

This is a shot of my drive shaft broken at the rear end...the thing sheared off.

 

[WildBill1]

I do know Yamaha did a recall on their transmissions due to sudden lockup back in late 90's early 2000. They were the Silverado bikes I had one. They informed me of the recall when I took it in for an inspection. They informed a month or so after purchasing it. I let them know no your not pulling my motor trans out ... why wasn't this corrected before you sold to me I demanded another bike of equal value and got it. They agreed and I rode off with a 99 Victory a lot better bike. The culprit in the transmission was a weak circle clip that breaks and locks up the gears in the tranny.

[Patch]

I'm adding my two cents:

 

 

 

More like a Dimes worth I'm thinking

[Mojankie]

Wow!

You guys are awesome!!!!

I knew there was a reason I renewed my membership. This is the Dad here now. So, Like he said before, He pulled the rear brake, dropped the rear wheel, pulled the final drive, pulled the clutch basket, everything did not show signs of the problem there. While the basket was out, we were able to look in and see the transmission gears, shifting drum works correctly, minor movement in shaft, gears etc. Concluded that the internal parts were as close to functioning correctly as we could deduce without opening up the case.

Next we talked it through, had a conversation with Mike the Guru (diamond cut guy) and headed towards the output shaft. I figured if stuff was turning on the inside, it had to exit somehow - and the output shaft seemed like the first place to start.

My son pulled the swingarm and then the output shaft - it is seized. It smells like it got HOT. I even see tempering color at the base of the yoke. I am thinking that is the problem!

 

I assume there is a lubrication problem - Any ideas why?

 

Also, I see the number 61 on the flange. Is that the thickness of the shim? I see an output shaft on ebay that has 73 on the flange. Is there a specific way that you set the pinon tolerance?

 

 

Again, Thank you guys for all the help and ideas.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Mojankie

[videoarizona]

My son pulled the swingarm and then the output shaft - it is seized. It smells like it got HOT. I even see tempering color at the base of the yoke. I am thinking that is the problem!

 

I assume there is a lubrication problem - Any ideas why?

 

Also, I see the number 61 on the flange. Is that the thickness of the shim? I see an output shaft on ebay that has 73 on the flange. Is there a specific way that you set the pinon tolerance?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If in the above, you are talking about the middle gear shaft, part 12 on page 4-104, then yes, there is a specific procedure to set the shims for the shaft tolerance. Lubrication here is provided by engine oil. Any issues here will mean major teardown of the engine/transmission.

 

If you are talking about the drive shaft itself...that is located in the swing arm, then no, there isn't any alignment procedure other than lining up the rear end of the driveshaft housing...to the front end of the rear end....a simple procedure. The swing arm provides the alignment of the drive shaft to the output U joint and the rear end. The procedure for aligning the rear end to the drive shaft is done by putting the axle back into the rear end, tightening the 4 acorn nuts that connect the bolts on the rear end to the swing arm equally to spec then making sure the drive shaft can be pulled(moved) easily in and out. This aligns the rear end to the drive shaft assembly. Like I said...really simple stuff. Well documented on this site by others...

 

Page 7-74 gives the breakdown of the shaft drive troubleshooting. The shaft drive connects the output of the transmission at the U joint on the front end of the shaft. Lubrication at that area is provided by grease supplied at the joint by the owners. The rear end of the drive shaft goes into THE rear end and is lubricated by the oil of the rear end itself. If you are talking about the drive shaft being frozen, then either the middle gear shaft is frozen somewhere along it's 90 degree path to the U joint, or the rear end of the bike is locked up. The drive shaft itself "may" cause a lockup at the U joint if not lubricated but that would also show issues with the splines on the U joint itself...and require replacement of that U joint. A major task.

 

Similar lock up "may" occur at the other end of the drive shaft if the rear end is dry....but I would think other parts would be responsible for the lock up...like the final output drive gears or bearings. They are kind of like a reverse of the middle gear...a 90 degree turn from along the bike's axis to the rear wheel. Pages 7-83 and 7-84 diagram the final output drive or "rear end".

 

To download the manuals...go here:

 

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?91-Manuals-Guides-Parts-Diagrams-Etc

 

Download the RSV service manual and the RSV parts manual.

 

These bikes are very well built. So I would recommend you read the manuals to familiarize yourself more...then simply look at what you have going on. Do some more diagnosing and looking around then come back and let us know where you are. I'm heading out of town for a few weeks, but there are a ton of guys and gals here who know far more than I and they will jump in...Good luck! I'll be interested in finding out what you find as major issues with these scoots are not common.

 

P.S. Page 7-77 (I think) shows the entire drive train assembly...just to give you an overview....

Edited January 9, 2020 by videoarizona
spelling/add

[Patch]

Still and if the rear is apart as you mention, I would run the engine place in gear say 2nd, release the clutch and prove it stalls with all the rest of the drive off.

 

In my experience when a bearing seizes it should be blue.

 

Both the shaft and bearing are tempered during manufacturing.

 

Now if the unit is seized then consider the last ride a horseshoe or a 4 leaf clover

 

I bet Kevin has a Yam bulletin if yam put one out?

[Marcarl]

So the job now is: pull the engine, turn it upside down, take off the bottom cover and then you can easily get at the stuff you need to. You won't be doing any engine work at all, just a simple transmission.

I have done this a number of times, and I remember the last time was on a blonde 84 Venture,,, it was the 3rd time that engine was coming out in a 4 week span. The bike was ready for the road, all put together and in 45 minutes I had the engine ready to come out, another 30 minutes had me right into the transmission,,,, can be done, it's not that hard eh? Just remember, somebody else designed it, folks that put it together had no idea of what they were doing and now all you have to do is to take it apart, tell us what you all see or post some more pictures and Bob's your uncle.

[cowpuc]

Go to 5 minutes and 34 into the attached video. See the universal joint I am in the process of changing in the video? Look behind the universal at the output shaft sticking out, notice the 3 bolts holding the output shaft into the forward bevel gear. Loosen those three bolts up and the output shaft housing can be removed. Is this the housing that contains the bearing that has seized? If so, you do not need to pull the engine - just remove the housing and replace the bearing. Yes, this housing is shimmed for bevel gear tolerance. The shims are cut so you can slide them in and out fairly easily. If you replace just the bearing you should have no reason to reshim. If you replace the whole housing you will have to reshim to get into spec on the gear mating. I am not sure what the spec is on the amount of play you need at that right angle bevel gear set but I do know it needs to have some lash. I would guess 10 thou would be in the ball park. I am sure the exact spec could be found in a shop manual. All IMHO of course.

 

Either way, whether I am correct here or not,,, all the best in fixing your scoot!!

Puc

 

[Marcarl]

Go to 5 minutes and 34 into the attached video. See the universal joint I am in the process of changing in the video? Look behind the universal at the output shaft sticking out, notice the 3 bolts holding the output shaft into the forward bevel gear. Loosen those three bolts up and the output shaft housing can be removed. Is this the housing that contains the bearing that has seized? If so, you do not need to pull the engine - just remove the housing and replace the bearing. Yes, this housing is shimmed for bevel gear tolerance. The shims are cut so you can slide them in and out fairly easily. If you replace just the bearing you should have no reason to reshim. If you replace the whole housing you will have to reshim to get into spec on the gear mating. I am not sure what the spec is on the amount of play you need at that right angle bevel gear set but I do know it needs to have some lash. I would guess 10 thou would be in the ball park. I am sure the exact spec could be found in a shop manual. All IMHO of course.

 

Either way, whether I am correct here or not,,, all the best in fixing your scoot!!

Puc

 

You are so absolutely correct Mr. Pucster, I couldn't agree with you more,,, even though that might hurt a little.

In my post I assumed that the housing would have been compromised, but if it is deemed to be usable then there would be no need to extract the powerplant from it's place of resting. The only reason then, that I was suggesting to remove the engine was to be able to get the gear lash set proper with the proper shims.

Glad to have you on board Mr. Puc!!

[Mojankie]

@5:34 in the video - Yes - that is the part that the bearing is seized on.

 

Whilst the young son was taking the clutch off, he tried the old "I'll stick a screw driver in there to stop it from spinning trick" and snapped one of the bolt posts off! We are waiting for a new gasket, and replacement clutch boss to show up. Then we will fire it up, Make sure nothing else is seized up, and go from there. He is a college kid trying to save every dime he can and get out of school without debt.

He has ordered a used Middle drive off ebay and I will help him set the tolerance on the pinon and hopefully we will be good to go.

I printed out the manual and have a dial indicator on the way....

You guys are great.

[Mojankie]

So,

We got the new clutch boss in and that side of the engine back together.

While we were waiting for parts to come in I was thinking, why would this bearing fail and why did it get so hot?

I wondered if there was a lubrication issue. I figured that once the clutch was put back together - prior to re-installing the output shaft - I would get under the bike and have my son start it and I would watch inside the middle drive area to verify that I could see lubrication happening. I crawled under it, he added oil, started it up and I watched...

 

Now, I honestly do not know how it is lubed. I have downloaded and printed out the service manual.

 

It appears the oil travels down the drive axle (Lubrication Diagram page 2-27) towards the middle drive pinon gear.

I did not see the pinon gear (no.4) getting lubed.

 

In the diagram, about halfway down the drive axle (no.2) it looks like it heads towards the middle driven pinon gear(no. 3) or what I am calling the output shaft.

 

It makes sense that the bearing on the output shaft would get lubed this way, however, looking into this area from below, I saw no oil flowing while it was running.

 

I assume that I should see it lubricating the shaft, and I saw no oil flowing near the area that the output shaft o-ring would seal.

I have uploaded a picture I got from this site to show the area I am talking about.

 

My question is this, - Could I have a weak or faulty oil pump? Could I have a clogged oil passage somewhere?

 

Thoughts?Oil flow chart.pdf

Edited January 19, 2020 by Mojankie

[videoarizona]

This is way beyond me but are there holes in the driven shaft that forces oil out to the pinon gear? The final output gear has an oil seal so it needs an oil channel to get out to it. Or does it?

 

Can you determine whether the final drive gear is dry or the pinon gear dry? Then you could check whether you have a clogged oil passage for final drive or a clogged oil passage for the pinion....

 

Interesting discussion. I'm keeping up trying to learn.

[Patch]

I've done only the suzuki drives but the pinon will kick splash to the open bearing of the output... That's all it needs,,, providing the pan is back on;)

[Mojankie]

Well, in the on going saga....

I am thinking that I have a oil pump issue. I pulled the oil filter and started it up. No oil is pumped out the hole to the filter. I either have a blockage, clogged screen, or bad oil pump. Anyone have another idea on how to test an oil pump while it is on on the bike?

[Patch]

On the gen 1 there is a note to check for clogs up the oil port before the filter.

 

Just a quick thought.. if you assume bad pressure, (I don't recall mention of a port to check pressure)? So I would check at the pressure tubing that splits to oil the heads.

 

Low pressure will cause a noisy crank and heads as well as chain. With pressure issues the journal may be shot.

 

Look in the engine rebuild section I believe its noted at the beginning in engine disassembly, where to check for clogs.