The ride home from WNY.

[Rabbit14]

My other bikes are all bike bikes... 1400 and 1ks sport bikes... your actually not suppose to strong arm the bars that makes matters worst... grab a gear or two ans smack the throttle and it would have straightened out on ya... bet it definitely is something most people arent gonna do and then they get chucked off the bike... by grabbing a fist full of throttle it resets the front suspension by putting the power to the ass end and off the front end... glad it all worked out for ya brother...

[RDawson]

I am running a CT but I don't think it had anything to do with it. I've run those speeds several times with no symptoms, after the shakes I tried opening it up a few more times with the same results. I messed with the bearings same time as I installed the new front Shinko. It seems to be speed/aero related, anything over 75 got loose feeling up front. Where I usually power out of turbulence passing a truck I had to slow down and pass slowly. Even with the worn front (also a Shinko-same tire) that was cupped a little it was always stable at any speed. Everything points to the bearings or the new tire, it balanced fine so I'm leaning toward the bearings. It will be a few days before I have time to put it on the jack and start testing.

As far as powering out it might have worked to downshift but really didn't want an abrupt change. I never felt completely out of control and cut speed over a long distance until it settled.

[RDawson]

My other bikes are all bike bikes... 1400 and 1ks sport bikes... your actually not suppose to strong arm the bars that makes matters worst... grab a gear or two ans smack the throttle and it would have straightened out on ya... bet it definitely is something most people arent gonna do and then they get chucked off the bike... by grabbing a fist full of throttle it resets the front suspension by putting the power to the ass end and off the front end... glad it all worked out for ya brother...

I would normally agree with you but this seems speed/aero related. I tried a few times with no traffic around and each time I sped up it would try to start shaking again. Anytime I've had side gusts or road related shake powering out has always worked on any bike I've ridden, powering up this time increased the frequency. I'm anxious to tear into it to figure it out. I'll start with the new tire before the bearings and try to find the issue before throwing parts at it.

[cowpuc]

My other bikes are all bike bikes... 1400 and 1ks sport bikes... your actually not suppose to strong arm the bars that makes matters worst... grab a gear or two ans smack the throttle and it would have straightened out on ya... bet it definitely is something most people arent gonna do and then they get chucked off the bike... by grabbing a fist full of throttle it resets the front suspension by putting the power to the ass end and off the front end... glad it all worked out for ya brother...

 

Yup,, you are describing my R1 to a tee Rabbit... It's the early model with no dampner so there's that. It likes to follow the pavement in precision and irregularites in pavenment alone can cause some mighty scary movements even above 165.. It always responds perfectly to the throttle as you suggest but could/would be a handful to the timid during off track (non perfect pavement) play.. My KX500 was exactly the same way,, keep the front end light and it was a knife..

 

What liter bikes ya got?? Good night talk about FUN,,, adrenaline filled FUN!!

[uhfradarwill]

All pressures right on the mark including forks being equal.

 

 

How do you know the fork pressures are equal??

[cowpuc]

I am running a CT but I don't think it had anything to do with it. I've run those speeds several times with no symptoms, after the shakes I tried opening it up a few more times with the same results. I messed with the bearings same time as I installed the new front Shinko. It seems to be speed/aero related, anything over 75 got loose feeling up front. Where I usually power out of turbulence passing a truck I had to slow down and pass slowly. Even with the worn front (also a Shinko-same tire) that was cupped a little it was always stable at any speed. Everything points to the bearings or the new tire, it balanced fine so I'm leaning toward the bearings. It will be a few days before I have time to put it on the jack and start testing.

As far as powering out it might have worked to downshift but really didn't want an abrupt change. I never felt completely out of control and cut speed over a long distance until it settled.

 

I would triple check your fairing for looseness while checking it out. Also take a peek at the bar perches for looseness, especially if you by chance happened to have just used straps on the bars to hold it on a lift?

 

My limited (and VERY limited) experience with Darksiding is one that showed me some difference in what we are speaking of Corporal,,, couple that with forward controls (I have always really appreciated mid controls for their handling abilities,,, even beyond being able to get on the pegs and/or use foot/knee pressure to steer with) and I can see where getting the steer bearings spot on in adjustment, especially when running a brand new front tire who's contact patch to pavement is narrowed cause its new..

What kind of air pressure are you running front and back? Are the tires both radial or biased or a mix?

IMHO,, and this is probably wayyy off,,, a car tire,, because of its increased area of contact to the pavement may actually be working against your steering geometry by holding the bike "stiff" - sort of like what Rabbit mentions about stiff arming during a tank slapper = bad move IMHO..

I am gonna dig around and see if I can find some data on how I set up neck bearings. The info may come from one of my past MX track bikes but may be helpful in your case. If I can something I will snap up some pics and post them,,, other wise I will gladly post a step by step from memory (if I can even find that = that may actually be more difficult ) if you wish? Again,, just an opinion but you could have a mix of things going on that is a little more complicated... This will be interesting and a learning experience for all of us but could be a dangerous one,, PLEASE take it little by little my dearest brother!!!

[RDawson]

OK Puc ya got my brain smoking. What's your theory on the car tire? I'm thinking it's likely to be something I recently changed but I know what ASSuming does too. I know it rides different than it did a week ago and I changed a tire and bearing lash. There the possibility something else coincidentally happened at the same time, it has happened before.

[RDawson]

How do you know the fork pressures are equal??

Zero loss pump with low pressure gauge.

[cowpuc]

OK Puc ya got my brain smoking. What's your theory on the car tire? I'm thinking it's likely to be something I recently changed but I know what ASSuming does too. I know it rides different than it did a week ago and I changed a tire and bearing lash. There the possibility something else coincidentally happened at the same time, it has happened before.

 

My theory is that due to the width of the contact surface on a car tire to surface, the car tire will last a LOT longer. A brand new bike tire, properly mounted/balanced and inflated has about a 2 inch contact area area to surface and is radiused up to the side wall and as its usefulness and handling charectoristics deminish it wear "square" and becomes similar to the car tire contact area.

It makes sense that the car tire would have a longer life, especially when riding high temp desert region highways where rubber gets taken off like a kid licking an ice cream cone BUT,, it makes sense to my pea brain that some of the handling charectoristics that happen when a bike tire squares off from wear would also be noticable with a bike with a car tire compared to a squared off bike tire. The ability for the bikes frame to pass on movement from one radiused tire to another tire of the same condition and self correct those dynamics is well known to be an issue with tire wear in bike racing. That is the primary reason that left over used track bike tires are plentiful for purchase at cheaply..

In my back yard mechanical pea brain theory that you ask for,, I wonder if the same extended contact surface that is offering huge benifits in miles of usage, if that same surface is resisting the movement needed for the bike to self correct in little movements that are happening continously at the bars thru both air movement across the fairing and changes in road surfaces.

This is probably gonna sound wayy out there but I have found that torque on the steer bearings will act very similar to a steer dampner. I never really cared for dampeners on my dirt bikes (no idea about now adays but back when I was competing on the MX tracks and woods riding it was VERY common to see aftermarket dampners on bikes) but chose to use precision in my steer bearing adjustments instead and found I got similar results.. Knobby dirt tires are well known for their non existent resistance to side movement and/or balancing charectoristics and when you run them up into high speeds (over 90 mph) on open class two tracks - tank slappers were not common.. Adjusting the neck bearings in 1/2 pound increments on a digital scale at the bar ends worked awesome for controlling a lot those scary moments, maybe not as proficient as a high end dampner but for someone not wanting to fight a dampner in the low speed stuff,, it worked well.

[RDawson]

HMMMM now for more back story the front I just took off had outlasted a Shinko 777 rear and a Commander II when I put the CT on it so it had some wear. It stayed on for about 6000'miles with the CT. Really wish I hadn't monkeyed with the bearings before I test rode the new tire.

[Marcarl]

Going back to Puc dialogue, that is why I suggested to snug the bearings on the tight side, ride it and notice if the bike self corrects, (it shouldn't and you'll not go far to discover that) then loosen the bearings slightly, a 1/16 turn can make all the difference, repeat and repeat until self correction is back, even at higher speeds, then maybe a 1/16 loosen and Jerry's your uncle.

[RDawson]

OK I know I said I had to finish some work before the bike. Just couldn't stand it so I took a 30 minute break and loosened them up a little more. Went out on the highway and waited for a big truck, played around in the turbulent air behind three different trucks and then wicked it up to higher speeds. She's back to riding loose and comfortable. Still gonna order new bearings and do the job right, too much riding on it for chance. There's 56,600 on the clock now plus me having them too tight so I'm assuming damage.

[cowpuc]

OK I know I said I had to finish some work before the bike. Just couldn't stand it so I took a 30 minute break and loosened them up a little more. Went out on the highway and waited for a big truck, played around in the turbulent air behind three different trucks and then wicked it up to higher speeds. She's back to riding loose and comfortable. Still gonna order new bearings and do the job right, too much riding on it for chance. There's 56,600 on the clock now plus me having them too tight so I'm assuming damage.

 

Of course,, it's your bike and as usual,, my opinion is worth no more than anyone elses (IMHO of course) = opinion +

$1 will get cha a large coke at Micky D's ) but if it were mine to torture I would raise the front end and move the bars lock to lock slowly while I felt for any for of the notchies.. Years ago while spinning wrenches for a living on scoots we had a rash of neck bearing replacements come thru - most but not all were MX bikes. Knowing that neck bearings are basically no more than a typical Timken like used on Auto spindles and some HD cranks (VERY DURABLE) and being of the curious sort I started asking owners if they we folks who power washed their scoots a lot.. Almost 100 percent of those quried came back with being avid power washer addicts. My theory now stands that neck bearings are not normally damaged by over torqueing but are actually damaged by water being forced in and then captured to create a rust line in the non-rotating Timken.. This said, once the dent/wear line/pitting is significant enough to cause issues,, it can also be fairly easily felt just by going lock to lock with no weight on the forks.. I would trust that the bikes low speed wobble was probably due to wear on the front tire and that, as you said Newkirk, the bearing adjustment was not healthy and unless I had a pretty good indicator that the bearings were notched,, I would leave em backed off and go riding instead of spinning wrenches..

Either way though brother,, GLAD you got the findings you did and VERY glad to hear no more death wobbling up there at speed,, definitely scary stuff not just for you but also for those who love ya brother!!

 

As usual in my geezerly state,, I know I am a dollar short to the game here in posting this but I did find some info on how I have set neck bearings on scoots for years now.. The following pics and text should be fairly easy to follow (unlike one of my lame description attempts. Note that this is old school stuff using a mechanical fish scale and most shops who use this method have advanced to digital scales (a LOT more accurate and VERY inexpensive) but the plan is still the same. Also note that I have found the scales to be very handy for other stuff like measuring trigger pull and hammer spring strength but also for monitoring neck bearing wear on a scoot just by recording settings and keeping an eye on them occasionally.. The digitals are also really helpful in detecting bearing notching,, all you do is hook up the scale as shown only instead of just watching the weight of pull for movement, you pull all the way thru lock to lock and watch the scale for clicky movement - make sense?

Hope this helps in some small way...

Puc

[RDawson]

Of course,, it's your bike and as usual,, my opinion is worth no more than anyone elses (IMHO of course) = opinion +

$1 will get cha a large coke at Micky D's ) but if it were mine to torture I would raise the front end and move the bars lock to lock slowly while I felt for any for of the notchies.. Years ago while spinning wrenches for a living on scoots we had a rash of neck bearing replacements come thru - most but not all were MX bikes. Knowing that neck bearings are basically no more than a typical Timken like used on Auto spindles and some HD cranks (VERY DURABLE) and being of the curious sort I started asking owners if they we folks who power washed their scoots a lot.. Almost 100 percent of those quried came back with being avid power washer addicts. My theory now stands that neck bearings are not normally damaged by over torqueing but are actually damaged by water being forced in and then captured to create a rust line in the non-rotating Timken.. This said, once the dent/wear line/pitting is significant enough to cause issues,, it can also be fairly easily felt just by going lock to lock with no weight on the forks.. I would trust that the bikes low speed wobble was probably due to wear on the front tire and that, as you said Newkirk, the bearing adjustment was not healthy and unless I had a pretty good indicator that the bearings were notched,, I would leave em backed off and go riding instead of spinning wrenches..

Either way though brother,, GLAD you got the findings you did and VERY glad to hear no more death wobbling up there at speed,, definitely scary stuff not just for you but also for those who love ya brother!!

 

As usual in my geezerly state,, I know I am a dollar short to the game here in posting this but I did find some info on how I have set neck bearings on scoots for years now.. The following pics and text should be fairly easy to follow (unlike one of my lame description attempts. Note that this is old school stuff using a mechanical fish scale and most shops who use this method have advanced to digital scales (a LOT more accurate and VERY inexpensive) but the plan is still the same. Also note that I have found the scales to be very handy for other stuff like measuring trigger pull and hammer spring strength but also for monitoring neck bearing wear on a scoot just by recording settings and keeping an eye on them occasionally.. The digitals are also really helpful in detecting bearing notching,, all you do is hook up the scale as shown only instead of just watching the weight of pull for movement, you pull all the way thru lock to lock and watch the scale for clicky movement - make sense?

Hope this helps in some small way...

Puchttps://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117372https://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117362https://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117363https://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117364https://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117365https://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117366https://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117367https://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117368https://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117369https://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117370https://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=117371

 

Thanks Puc, as I said I don't have experience with neck bearings. I never use a pressure washer and never put enough miles on one to worry about it. It was after the wife decided to try riding that we started traveling on a bike. I've probably put more miles on in the last two years than the previous 20. I'm pretty handy with a wrench and know where to ask help when I need it.

[cowpuc]

Thanks Puc, as I said I don't have experience with neck bearings. I never use a pressure washer and never put enough miles on one to worry about it. It was after the wife decided to try riding that we started traveling on a bike. I've probably put more miles on in the last two years than the previous 20. I'm pretty handy with a wrench and know where to ask help when I need it.

 

You are welcome brother,, anytime!