The ride home from WNY.

[RDawson]

I had a great time at WNY but here's the rest of the story. Right before leaving to go to NY I replaced the front tire and checked the steering head bearings by the method in the read only library. I tightened them a little while I had it in the air to do the tire. Sounds simple right? On the way up I was in heavy traffic most of the way with tons of 18 wheelers on the road. The bike didn't handle the turbulence off of the trucks well at all which I attributed to the number of trucks on the road and the wind blowing. After leaving the PA crew and heading west on the way home I got snarled in a group of cages going a little crazy so I wicked it up to get away from them. At 90mph it went into a death wobble that took nearly 1/2 mile to straighten up. Luckily I was on straight road and managed to keep it in my lane. Once I got closer to home traffic was lighter but passing big trucks was nerve wracking and took a heavy hand to keep it straight. I have a few days of work to complete before I can tear into it but plan to tear it apart and find the issue. It gets crazy at different speeds around trucks so I don't believe it to be any kind of balance issue, Ill check the tire itself and order new wheel bearings and neck bearings to make it all new. I did stop and back off the change I made to the neck bearings and checked tire pressures and fork pressures. I pulled the swingarm early this spring and went through it and repacked all bearings so I don't think it's coming from there. I haven't done neck bearings before but it cant be too bad with my shop and the library here. Any suggestions anyone?

 

Before all this the PA crew and Wiz invited me to ride south with them to skirt the storms, I don't know if they were being nice or wanted my good luck charm to keep them dry as it had me the rest of the week. It was a nice ride south with them and I got to see some new country. I traded a few miles out of my way to stay dry and headed west 115 miles south of Chaffee. After the incident above I took my time around other traffic and only opened it up some when alone on the road so I didn't make great time but got home safely. I also took several breaks since riding with that much of a heavy hand had me tired and on edge a lot of the time. Got home around 11:30 central time last night so about 17 hours after I left Chaffee.

[Drews]

Glad to hear that everything turned out alright You are so right that's a problem that needs to be taken care of

[uhfradarwill]

I had a great time at WNY but here's the rest of the story. Right before leaving to go to NY I replaced the front tire and checked the steering head bearings by the method in the read only library. I tightened them a little while I had it in the air to do the tire. Sounds simple right? On the way up I was in heavy traffic most of the way with tons of 18 wheelers on the road. The bike didn't handle the turbulence off of the trucks well at all which I attributed to the number of trucks on the road and the wind blowing. After leaving the PA crew and heading west on the way home I got snarled in a group of cages going a little crazy so I wicked it up to get away from them. At 90mph it went into a death wobble that took nearly 1/2 mile to straighten up. Luckily I was on straight road and managed to keep it in my lane. Once I got closer to home traffic was lighter but passing big trucks was nerve wracking and took a heavy hand to keep it straight. I have a few days of work to complete before I can tear into it but plan to tear it apart and find the issue. It gets crazy at different speeds around trucks so I don't believe it to be any kind of balance issue, Ill check the tire itself and order new wheel bearings and neck bearings to make it all new. I did stop and back off the change I made to the neck bearings and checked tire pressures and fork pressures. I pulled the swingarm early this spring and went through it and repacked all bearings so I don't think it's coming from there. I haven't done neck bearings before but it cant be too bad with my shop and the library here. Any suggestions anyone?

 

Before all this the PA crew and Wiz invited me to ride south with them to skirt the storms, I don't know if they were being nice or wanted my good luck charm to keep them dry as it had me the rest of the week. It was a nice ride south with them and I got to see some new country. I traded a few miles out of my way to stay dry and headed west 115 miles south of Chaffee. After the incident above I took my time around other traffic and only opened it up some when alone on the road so I didn't make great time but got home safely. I also took several breaks since riding with that much of a heavy hand had me tired and on edge a lot of the time. Got home around 11:30 central time last night so about 17 hours after I left Chaffee.

 

 

How did you handle the death wobble?

[RDawson]

How did you handle the death wobble?

Locked elbows and pushed the bars forward. Tried to power out but it got worse so I used VERY slight trail brake and slowly rolled off the throttle. No abrupt changes is a big key.

[uhfradarwill]

Locked elbows and pushed the bars forward. Tried to power out but it got worse so I used VERY slight trail brake and slowly rolled off the throttle. No abrupt changes is a big key.

 

Thanks for the info. I'll file away in case it ever happens to me!!

[cowpuc]

Glad to hear that everything turned out alright You are so right that's a problem that needs to be taken care of

 

:sign yeah that:

 

Which one of your scoots were you on Corporal Newkirk and why did you adjust the steer bearings in the first place (have issues pre-adjustment? When dealing with steer bearing issues thru the years at the shop, it was amazing how many times bikes came in with those neck bearings overtightened and to tight of bearings always seemed to produce similar results to those you describe - especially on Bat Wing (fork mounted) scoots where cross winds create more erratic fork movement that require subtle constant corrective input from the rider. If to tight (or notched/shot bearings) those subtle corrections can easily become over corrections leading to the "death wobble"..

Similar results can happen, IMHO, from worn fork bushings which allow for movement that create similar subtle corrective action. I had a Honda 1100F (cool scoot) that I picked up for a couple hundred bucks cause its death wobble scared the PO so bad he was ready to junk the bike as he had deemed it unridable as even the dealerships couldn't figure out what was going on with its steering.. 105ish (bike was easily a 12 second machine,, minus the steer issues of course) and the death wobble would occur.. Ended up being the fork bushings.. By the way,, that scoot came stock with a small fork mounted bullet fairing on it and even just that little fairing was enough to cause those subtle movements I am speaking of.

If you have not done so, and the scoot was not doing the death wobble pre-adjustment,, I would back the torque nut on the steer bearings off, feeling for "notchiness" as you reset.

I have successfully used the zip-tie on bar end/digital fish scale method for setting steer bearings thru the years,, not sure if thats what you are doing? On frame mounted fairing scoots like sport bikes (think Maggie my R1) all the up to full touring scoots like Tweeks (or your 1st Gen) I set to 4 pounds,, fork mounted scoots I go with 2 pound break at the scale as they always seemed more sensitive to over torque.

There,, my share of suggestive response to = "any have any suggestions"

[saddlebum]

When you get into that wobble number one is do not panic number two is don't make any sudden moves slowly ease off the throttle and and steer until it comes steady again don't back off all of a sudden because if you do it could actually increase the wobble.

[RDawson]

:sign yeah that:

 

Which one of your scoots were you on Corporal Newkirk and why did you adjust the steer bearings in the first place (have issues pre-adjustment? When dealing with steer bearing issues thru the years at the shop, it was amazing how many times bikes came in with those neck bearings overtightened and to tight of bearings always seemed to produce similar results to those you describe - especially on Bat Wing (fork mounted) scoots where cross winds create more erratic fork movement that require subtle constant corrective input from the rider. If to tight (or notched/shot bearings) those subtle corrections can easily become over corrections leading to the "death wobble"..

Similar results can happen, IMHO, from worn fork bushings which allow for movement that create similar subtle corrective action. I had a Honda 1100F (cool scoot) that I picked up for a couple hundred bucks cause its death wobble scared the PO so bad he was ready to junk the bike as he had deemed it unridable as even the dealerships couldn't figure out what was going on with its steering.. 105ish (bike was easily a 12 second machine,, minus the steer issues of course) and the death wobble would occur.. Ended up being the fork bushings.. By the way,, that scoot came stock with a small fork mounted bullet fairing on it and even just that little fairing was enough to cause those subtle movements I am speaking of.

If you have not done so, and the scoot was not doing the death wobble pre-adjustment,, I would back the torque nut on the steer bearings off, feeling for "notchiness" as you reset.

I have successfully used the zip-tie on bar end/digital fish scale method for setting steer bearings thru the years,, not sure if thats what you are doing? On frame mounted fairing scoots like sport bikes (think Maggie my R1) all the up to full touring scoots like Tweeks (or your 1st Gen) I set to 4 pounds,, fork mounted scoots I go with 2 pound break at the scale as they always seemed more sensitive to over torque.

There,, my share of suggestive response to = "any have any suggestions"

I looked at them because of a little slow speed shake, chances are that was caused by the old tire being cupped. I probably overthought it and should've left it alone. It was the 07.

Edited August 19, 2019 by RDawson

[WIZ]

When I had issues with my bike going into a death wobble I tore the steering head apart and my bearings showed a lot of denting Marks. I replaced them and the swing arm bearing to start with new bearings and bike handled great afterwards. Glad you made it home safe.

 

Ron

Edited August 21, 2019 by WIZ

[WRIDR]

MAN, that is so scary our neck hair's standing on end!~

 

Real stupid question: "Air pressure?"

 

Rgds, WRIDR

[videoarizona]

Glad you made it home safe!

 

The British did a series of videos on death wobbles..... The only thing I took came with was leaning forward and slowing down changed the geometry of the bike... Allowing control to be regained.

 

Let us know what you find!

David

[RDawson]

MAN, that is so scary our neck hair's standing on end!~

 

Real stupid question: "Air pressure?"

 

Rgds, WRIDR

All pressures right on the mark including forks being equal.

[RDawson]

Glad you made it home safe!

 

The British did a series of videos on death wobbles..... The only thing I took came with was leaning forward and slowing down changed the geometry of the bike... Allowing control to be regained.

 

Let us know what you find!

David

I'm quite certain I'll find that the loose nut that tightened the neck up made it too tight. I wanted to drop the front end last winter and do the bearings but ran short on time so I'll do that soon and make it all new. If I'm far enough in to grease them I may as well replace them.

[Marcarl]

I replaced the bearings on my 85 when it pulled that stunt while passing an 18 wheeler. It was a picnic though to set the torque right and proper. In my case my first attempt ended up being too tight and I found that the bike would not self-correct, so I loosened the bearings until the self-correcting came back into play and left things there. I was then a happy camper.

[dfitzbiz]

Whoa Ronny D., what a hair raising trip. Glad you made it home safe and thanks for joining us on our trip South. I hope we can ride together soon.

[XV1100SE]

When you "tested" the steering head tightness, which test did you do? The "bounce test"? I don't like this test simply because how hard or light I push it over might be different from someone else doing it, or misinterpret the "bounce" back.

 

My preference on checking the steering head (2nd Gen) is to lift the bike (level), turn the handlebars/forks/tires to a 45 degree angle to the left, hold it, and let go. If it moves then the steering head needs to be tightened.

 

Don't turn to the right because cables/wires will impact the test.

 

You may have your steering head too loose. Maybe too tight or your bearings are damaged. You have an '07....how many miles? High mileage or over tightening them you may have damaged bearings. Try loosening the steering head then test. Get it to the point where it will move on it's own then tighten a little bit, test again. If the steering moves, tighten a little more. If it doesn't move, tighten the steering head nut and (carefully) take it for a test drive.

 

The other test you might want to do is with the bike in the air, see if you can pull/push the forks to see if they move.

[Frogger]

Wowza what a ride. Glad you made it hone safely

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RDawson]

When you "tested" the steering head tightness, which test did you do? The "bounce test"? I don't like this test simply because how hard or light I push it over might be different from someone else doing it, or misinterpret the "bounce" back.

 

My preference on checking the steering head (2nd Gen) is to lift the bike (level), turn the handlebars/forks/tires to a 45 degree angle to the left, hold it, and let go. If it moves then the steering head needs to be tightened.

 

Don't turn to the right because cables/wires will impact the test.

 

You may have your steering head too loose. Maybe too tight or your bearings are damaged. You have an '07....how many miles? High mileage or over tightening them you may have damaged bearings. Try loosening the steering head then test. Get it to the point where it will move on it's own then tighten a little bit, test again. If the steering moves, tighten a little more. If it doesn't move, tighten the steering head nut and (carefully) take it for a test drive.

 

The other test you might want to do is with the bike in the air, see if you can pull/push the forks to see if they move.

Thanks Don, I did both the bounce and the method you mention. They were loose and I probably took it too far the other way at 56,000 miles it's time to replace parts.

[saddlebum]

I agree regarding the bounce test I am not a fan of this test as there can be too many variables affecting the outcome.

 

The proper way to set the bearings is using a torque wrench. Loosen off the nuts, then torque the 1st nut to 36 ftlbs while rotating the handle bars from side to side this properly sets the bearing cups in their seats. then loosen off completely and re-torque to 2.2 ftlbs Tighten the jam nut finger tight then while holding the adjusting nut tighten the jam nut until the slots line up. finally tighten the crown nut to 80 ftlbs.

 

This method will suffice if a torque wrench is not available.

 

Tighten the adjusting nut, while turning the handle bars from left to right, until you feel a very heavy drag on the bars. Loosen the nut, and then re-tighten just until the lash or play in the bearing disappears. tighten the jam nut with your fingers until it bottoms and then continue to tighten until the slots line up. Finally tighten the crown nut, just be careful not to over-tighten to the point were you can damage the threads.

 

In either case once done you should be able to move the handle bars WITH NO WEIGHT ON THE FRONT WHEEL with a feather light touch, while at the same time not being able to feel any bearing movement when you pull back and forth on the handle bars.

 

Anther good indicator of the bearings being too loose is while rolling at a slow speed lock the front brake hard. If there is any bearing play you will feel it.

Edited August 20, 2019 by saddlebum

[RDawson]

I agree regarding the bounce test I am not a fan of this test as there can be too many variables affecting the outcome.

 

The proper way to set the bearings is using a torque wrench. Loosen off the nuts, then torque the 1st nut to 36 ftlbs while rotating the handle bars from side to side this properly sets the bearing cups in their seats. then loosen off completely and re-torque to 2.2 ftlbs Tighten the jam nut finger tight then while holding the adjusting nut tighten the jam nut until the slots line up. finally tighten the crown nut to 80 ftlbs.

 

This method will suffice if a torque wrench is not available.

 

Tighten the adjusting nut, while turning the handle bars from left to right, until you feel a very heavy drag on the bars. Loosen the nut, and then re-tighten just until the lash or play in the bearing disappears. tighten the jam nut with your fingers until it bottoms and then continue to tighten until the slots line up. Finally tighten the crown nut, just careful not to over-tighten to the point were you can damage the threads.

 

In either case once done you should be able to move the handle bars WITH NO WEIGHT ON THE FRONT WHEEL with a feather light touch, while at the same time not being able to feel any bearing movement when you pull back and forth on the handle bars.

 

Anther good indicator of the bearings being too loose is while rolling at a slow speed lock the front brake hard. If there is any bearing play you will feel it.

That is the plan this time. I checked it when I had it in the air for a new tire and it wouldn't hold position and the bounce was huge. I had noticed a little vibration and wobble before that so I used the hammer and punch method to tighten it up for the trip. This is what shortcuts normally get me, it's in the shop where it will stay until I get time to pull the fairing and do it right. I have the tools but didn't have the time before WNY. I went thru the valves and swing arm a few months ago so I need to finish with the front end and know she's safe and ready.

[XV1100SE]

To set the torque on the steering head there is a "special" tool (a spanner). Make sure you look into this before attempting it. A member here sold them a few years ago, not sure if he still has any available.

 

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?134092-Steering-Head-Torque-Values&highlight=steering+head+torque

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?124884-While-adjusting-steering-head-bearings&highlight=steering+head+torque

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?107701-Adjusting-2nd-Gen-head-bearing-nut-while-torn-down&highlight=steering+head+torque (in this one you can see the spanner. Dingy used to make/sell them but don't know what happened to him). The spanner should be available online to purchase or maybe someone in your area has one.

[Rabbit14]

I know on a sports bike if you get the death wobble your actually suppose to crack the throttle so it lifts the front tire and that usually cleared it right up... Now im not sure on a cruiser because they dont have the power that the rockets have but thats what i would do if it happened to me... when in doubt throttle it out! Lol

[cowpuc]

I know on a sports bike if you get the death wobble your actually suppose to crack the throttle so it lifts the front tire and that usually cleared it right up... Now im not sure on a cruiser because they dont have the power that the rockets have but thats what i would do if it happened to me... when in doubt throttle it out! Lol

 

BAMMO!!!!! Same rule applies (IMHO of course),, streetbikes - dirtbikes and as you mention,, DEFINITELY sportbikes IMHO.. Same same = Drive into loose gravel on full on touring bike - throttle it out - chop the throttle and down ya go.. Got a log in your way when rounding on an MX bike on a tight single trail during an Enduro - lift the front tire (throttle it out) or suffer the consequences as you face plant on the other side of the log.. Death wobble in a corner at speed on a liter bike, trail brake and add throttle or PRAY you dont high side when your tossed from her back.

 

Rabbit,,, I can tell we are not dealing with no funny bunny here

 

By the way,, learning that "when in doubt throttle it out" is one of those precious little reasons why I have suggested for years that newbie riders grab an under powered little XR100 and buss around in a field and in sand,, learn to ride the back wheel even,, wayyy before they hit the highway.... Getting to trust that twist of the right grip just as much (maybe even more) is hard to describe but definitely worth the learning IMHO... GOOD POINT RABBIT!!

[RDawson]

I know on a sports bike if you get the death wobble your actually suppose to crack the throttle so it lifts the front tire and that usually cleared it right up... Now im not sure on a cruiser because they dont have the power that the rockets have but thats what i would do if it happened to me... when in doubt throttle it out! Lol

Yeah, I tried that first-don't recommend it on a cruiser. I stiff armed it and hit the throttle, it escalated the issue. I backed off a little to try to settle it because I really dreaded cutting power. Once I decided it was the only choice I used a little trail brake and eased out of it a little at a time until it calmed down. It never went full on tank slapper but was dancing pretty hard. Thought for a while I was gonna have to find the seat cleaning post from last week.

As an add on I was in 5th at the time, not a ton of torque to lift with at that speed.

Edited August 21, 2019 by RDawson

[cowpuc]

I gotta ask ya here Corporal ,,, are you by any chance running a car tire on your scoot?