clutch mystery

[saddlebum]

Maybe the hose section of the clutch hydraulic line has gotten soft with age and as it gets warm it allows for more expansion under pressure.. See part 16 here if I am once again failing in my attempt at articulating info: https://www.yamahapartsnation.com/oemparts/a/yam/5107f83bf870022108d65789/front-master-cylinder-2

Brand new stainless lines already installed

 

Are you using new, SEALED brake fluid (from a hitherto unopened can/bottle)?

Brake fluid, whether DOT3 or DOT4 WILL absorb moisture from the air. Moisture in brake fluid at high temps will cause what seems like air in the system (some maintain that STEAM is actually generated. I doubt THAT, but the moisture and high temperature combined will definitely create a soft lever.)

How high are the temps that your engine is experiencing? In the red on the temperature gauge?

Perhaps, the slave cylinder seals are not OEM? The seals become too soft at high operating temperature and allow bypass of the lever induced hydraulic pressure? Did you hone, thus enlarge the slave cylinder bore when it was rebuilt?

Finally, (I have to ask) did this malady occur with the stock, non-Barnett clutch?

I always use fresh brake fluid. I never keep an opened bottle around. Being a Mechanic for the past 42 years I have seen the downside of old brake fluid all to often. For the minor cost its just not worth saving.

 

BTW I think I have come up with a temporary solution. I installed a manual engine fan over ride switch so I can run the fan a little sooner or longer as needed. The idea being that I can drop the engine temp to a point were clutch etc are workable for the times when I need it. Time will see how this works out. Anything to avoid downing the bike until the end of the riding season.

[videoarizona]

OK...a way off-the-wall thought: Is your bike running to hot?

[Du-Rron]

Brand new stainless lines already installed

 

Your lines are not touching the exhaust anywhere are they?

 

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?97279-Baking-Clutch-Fluid-Exhaust-Heat-Shield

[saddlebum]

OK...a way off-the-wall thought: Is your bike running to hot?

Actually I have always felt it normally ran too cool. Even replaced the thermostat to try and bring it up a bit. But it does of course heat up in stop and go traffic or while tied up at the border at which point the fan will kick on for a bit to bring it down.

 

Your lines are not touching the exhaust anywhere are they?

 

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?97279-Baking-Clutch-Fluid-Exhaust-Heat-Shield

No the line is routed well clear of any heat source.

[Flyinfool]

I am thinking that you have 2 distinct and separate issues that both happen to be heat related which makes it look like they are tied together.

 

I am still thinking on the clutch part so start with the electrical.

The gear indicator switch goes to a 6 pin connector. Get the bike hot so that the neutral light is not working. Then test the light blue wire to see if there is 12 volts on it. If there is then connect a jumper from the light blue to ground to see if the light comes on. If it does then you have a bad ground at the neutral switch to fix. It could be that once it gets hot something is expanding in the switch and opening a connection. If there is not 12 V at the light blue wire then you will have to start following that wire back to see where the break is.

 

Do you still have the glass fuses?

[Bob K.]

Three problems actually, because at the same time bike will not go into neutral whether bike is running or not until it cools down even if I try to rock the bike back and forth. And there lies my dilemma

Then the root problem is that the bike won't go into neutral, not that the neutral light won't come on. I say that because some of our discussion seems to be going in the direction of checking your neutral light wiring, but your neutral light works just fine when the bike goes into neutral, right?

 

These are the same symptoms I'm currently facing, so I'm watching this thread intently.

 

- Stiff clutch handle when cold. Measured clutch engagement throughout entire travel of the clutch handle. Works fine until I ride the bike hard.

- Clutch handle becomes soft as if there's air or steam in the lines.

- Have to pump up the handle several times to switch gears

- Can't find neutral, even if I rock the bike. I can go 1st to 2nd, or 2nd to 1st--harshly, mind you--but can't catch neutral.

- Clutch begins to engage strongly when the handle is just a couple millimeters off the handgrip

- Returns to a stiff clutch with full range of engagement with the handle as soon as the bike starts to cool down. Rinse/repeat.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Bob K.

[saddlebum]

Then the root problem is that the bike won't go into neutral, not that the neutral light won't come on. I say that because some of our discussion seems to be going in the direction of checking your neutral light wiring, but your neutral light works just fine when the bike goes into neutral, right?

Actually there times when after finally manipulating it into neutral that even though it is in neutral the neutral light fails to come on and when you put the kickstand down at that time the engine will quit because it thinks it's in gear also it does not show 2nd gear on the display and occasionly 1st gear. But if you sit and wait for the bike to cool down suddenly the green light for neutral will come on as well as the bike becoming normal in both clutch operation and shifting through the gears.

[Patch]

Then the root problem is that the bike won't go into neutral, not that the neutral light won't come on. I say that because some of our discussion seems to be going in the direction of checking your neutral light wiring, but your neutral light works just fine when the bike goes into neutral, right?

 

These are the same symptoms I'm currently facing, so I'm watching this thread intently.

 

- Stiff clutch handle when cold. Measured clutch engagement throughout entire travel of the clutch handle. Works fine until I ride the bike hard.

- Clutch handle becomes soft as if there's air or steam in the lines.

- Have to pump up the handle several times to switch gears

- Can't find neutral, even if I rock the bike. I can go 1st to 2nd, or 2nd to 1st--harshly, mind you--but can't catch neutral.

- Clutch begins to engage strongly when the handle is just a couple millimeters off the handgrip

- Returns to a stiff clutch with full range of engagement with the handle as soon as the bike starts to cool down. Rinse/repeat.

 

I don't see that you are having the same issue for the same reason.

This reads like a displacement issue or a push volume deficiency (trying to find a simple explanation) The fact that the clutch engages a couple of mm off maximum proves what I mention above!

1st to 2nd "harshly" says the clutch is still in friction.

You need to disassemble the hydraulics from the slave to the master, clean, repair and replace worn parts then refill and bleed with quality dot3!

The switch is not at the moment in question!

 

Actually there times when after finally manipulating it into neutral that even though it is in neutral the neutral light fails to come on and when you put the kickstand down at that time the engine will quit because it thinks it's in gear also it does not show 2nd gear on the display and occasionly 1st gear. But if you sit and wait for the bike to cool down suddenly the green light for neutral will come on as well as the bike becoming normal in both clutch operation and shifting through the gears.

 

In Bum's case there is an intermittent switch issue which seems to be heat related. First thing to accept is that there is/may likely be a ground issue but, because it is only when the bike is hot we need consider that the switch housing deforms enough under heat (due to wear) causing the ground to not complete the circuit!

In Bum's case we assume because of his repeated posting that the hydraulics are in good condition and, based on his experience in the field we are looking past the hydraulics!

Again I think running seafaom thru the crankcase is a suitable start here, not the complete answer tho but any change in behavour may disclose a clue.

Yours truly

[videoarizona]

Are the clutch line hoses old? I'm wondering if the rubber is expanding enough to not allow the clutch to work properly.

 

Or...is the little ball at the end of the pushrod still there? If you were working on the system, did it get up and run away on you?

I'm trying to think outside the box...since all the normal stuff you've already done multiple times...

 

This is an interesting problem, for sure.

[Patch]

Are the clutch line hoses old? I'm wondering if the rubber is expanding enough to not allow the clutch to work properly.

 

Or...is the little ball at the end of the pushrod still there? If you were working on the system, did it get up and run away on you?

I'm trying to think outside the box...since all the normal stuff you've already done multiple times...

 

This is an interesting problem, for sure.

 

Assume you are referring to Bum's issue?

I for one cannot ignore the heat relation in the mix and really, I have a difficult time ignoring that this excessive localized heat is not friction related!

Nor can I either see that a missing something in the hydraulics would only show up when hot or over heated...hmm

[videoarizona]

Assume you are referring to Bum's issue?

I for one cannot ignore the heat relation in the mix and really, I have a difficult time ignoring that this excessive localized heat is not friction related!

Nor can I either see that a missing something in the hydraulics would only show up when hot or over heated...hmm

 

 

Understood. I'm simply trying to think outside the box, so to speak. Maybe a lightbulb will go off...

[Bob K.]

I don't see that you are having the same issue for the same reason.

 

Probably. I just flushed and bled my clutch and then drove it like I stole it for about 2 hours. No clutch problems noted. It works very nicely now.

[saddlebum]

Assume you are referring to Bum's issue?

I for one cannot ignore the heat relation in the mix and really, I have a difficult time ignoring that this excessive localized heat is not friction related!

Nor can I either see that a missing something in the hydraulics would only show up when hot or over heated...hmm

Its a strange one. its kinda like saying I got a guy in California freezing, A guy in the Arctic suffering from heat stroke and a guy in the middle of a fresh water spring suffering from thirst and all at the same time and only when the sun shines on the praires and it is scorching hot. As soon as it clouds over everybody is happy again.

[Patch]

Its a strange one. its kinda like saying I got a guy in California freezing, A guy in the Arctic suffering from heat stroke and a guy in the middle of a fresh water spring suffering from thirst and all at the same time and only when the sun shines on the praires and it is scorching hot. As soon as it clouds over everybody is happy again.

 

 

Yep, and only one horse to ride out and save em with, hmm hmm.

It sure must be tough being you, and that poor old horse too;)

[Marcarl]

Yep, and only one horse to ride out and save em with, hmm hmm.

It sure must be tough being you, and that poor old horse too;)

 

Along with that he lives in a one horse town as well.

[Patch]

Along with that he lives in a one horse town as well.

 

 

Of course he does, it makes look taller;)

[bikenut]

My 06 venture did that on a trip and lost the clutch when hot. Worked ok when cold.I just changed the brake fluid before the trip and bleed it really good but on the trip I lost it. It was air in the system. My 86 trike did that on the front brake and it was air in the system also. Sometimes it is very hard to get the air out and a friend told me about back bleeding and it works. What I did was Back bleed it from the bottom up to the top master with a small hand pump and bottle And I never had the problem again. Give that a try.

Good luck

[saddlebum]

My 06 venture did that on a trip and lost the clutch when hot. Worked ok when cold.I just changed the brake fluid before the trip and bleed it really good but on the trip I lost it. It was air in the system. My 86 trike did that on the front brake and it was air in the system also. Sometimes it is very hard to get the air out and a friend told me about back bleeding and it works. What I did was Back bleed it from the bottom up to the top master with a small hand pump and bottle And I never had the problem again. Give that a try.

Good luck

Thanks but I have tried that. I know half a dozen ways to bleed brakes and clutches having worked on all kinds of the stuff my whole life and tried em all. So far nothing has solved my issue. So far tossing an over ride switch in to manually turn my rad fan on early has accomplished the best results. Not a fix but a reasonable patch so far.

[Marcarl]

Thanks but I have tried that. I know half a dozen ways to bleed brakes and clutches having worked on all kinds of the stuff my whole life and tried em all. So far nothing has solved my issue. So far tossing an over ride switch in to manually turn my rad fan on early has accomplished the best results. Not a fix but a reasonable patch so far.

 

Gotta hold your tongue out of the other side of your mouth. Works like a charm!!

[Patch]

Gotta hold your tongue out of the other side of your mouth. Works like a charm!!

 

HOOOO is sadlebum one of them guys Carl, really?hmm

What other secrets can you post about your neighbor?

[Marcarl]

HOOOO is sadlebum one of them guys Carl, really?hmm

What other secrets can you post about your neighbor?

 

You know Steven,,,,,, you will have to come out to meet him youself, I can't even start, let alone finish all about @saddlebum.

There is a lot more there than meets the eye and sometimes the eye gets filled and needs to close before it overflows into the brain.

That he has a nickname from the the Indigenous is not so well known, although would surprise very few of the folks who know him well.

As far as his avatar is concerned, it is kind of misleading. Most people would think that his behind would be on the large to larger side, but that really isn't the case.

I could go on,,, and onnnn and on some more, but it would be best to meet him in person,,,, that way you can get the full benefit of his presence. Best have some time on your hands though, once he gets wound up, it takes a long time for him to un-wind.

[Patch]

You know Steven,,,,,, you will have to come out to meet him youself, I can't even start, let alone finish all about saddlebum.

There is a lot more there than meets the eye and sometimes the eye gets filled and needs to close before it overflows into the brain.

That he has a nickname from the the Indigenous is not so well known, although would surprise very few of the folks who know him well.

As far as his avatar is concerned, it is kind of misleading. Most people would think that his behind would be on the large to larger side, but that really isn't the case.

I could go on,,, and onnnn and on some more, but it would be best to meet him in person,,,, that way you can get the full benefit of his presence. Best have some time on your hands though, once he gets wound up, it takes a long time for him to un-wind.

 

Not a bod idea Carl! I can just imagine the 3 of us loose up in Northern Ont. between we 3 we could wright a spicy chapter for your book; say we call it

The week 3 Experienced Gentlemen Rode Through - a chapter recounting the tails of a long week, from broken promises to broken hearts... Hello lol

I'm game, just need to get my mineral count up, and maybe a new set of "cheap sunglasses";)

[saddlebum]

Gotta hold your tongue out of the other side of your mouth. Works like a charm!!

Tried that too but since I tend to clench my jaws when I concentrate all I got was a world of hurt (yes despite Marcarls slanderous statement I do close my yap.......occasionally ).

 

HOOOO is sadlebum one of them guys Carl, really?hmm

What other secrets can you post about your neighbor?

Don't answer that Carl:backinmyday:

 

You know Steven,,,,,, you will have to come out to meet him youself, I can't even start, let alone finish all about saddlebum.

There is a lot more there than meets the eye and sometimes the eye gets filled and needs to close before it overflows into the brain.

That he has a nickname from the the Indigenous is not so well known, although would surprise very few of the folks who know him well.

As far as his avatar is concerned, it is kind of misleading. Most people would think that his behind would be on the large to larger side, but that really isn't the case.

I could go on,,, and onnnn and on some more, but it would be best to meet him in person,,,, that way you can get the full benefit of his presence. Best have some time on your hands though, once he gets wound up, it takes a long time for him to un-wind.

Dang ...tooo late

 

Not a bod idea Carl! I can just imagine the 3 of us loose up in Northern Ont. between we 3 we could wright a spicy chapter for your book; say we call it

The week 3 Experienced Gentlemen Rode Through - a chapter recounting the tails of a long week, from broken promises to broken hearts... Hello lol

I'm game, just need to get my mineral count up, and maybe a new set of "cheap sunglasses";)

That could make for an interesting road trip.

[Newtomeventure]

I just bought a 99 Venture weekend before last. Wasn't able to ride it much the 1st week due to a knee problem. Started riding it this week as it's my dd. When I go out in the morning or late eve when its cool out, mine does the exact opposite. It acts like there's no clutch at all, then after it warms up or I ride it a little bit because sadly I don't have a 1/2 hr every morning to let it warm up that much, it's fine. When I leave work in afternoon while temp is higher it works fine from the get go. I've never had a bike with hydraulic clutch before & this definitely doesn't seem normal or ok. Anyone else ever experienced this or know what is going on here? Thanks for any advice & yes I'm new to the forum as well as the bike. haha

[Marcarl]

I just bought a 99 Venture weekend before last. Wasn't able to ride it much the 1st week due to a knee problem. Started riding it this week as it's my dd. When I go out in the morning or late eve when its cool out, mine does the exact opposite. It acts like there's no clutch at all, then after it warms up or I ride it a little bit because sadly I don't have a 1/2 hr every morning to let it warm up that much, it's fine. When I leave work in afternoon while temp is higher it works fine from the get go. I've never had a bike with hydraulic clutch before & this definitely doesn't seem normal or ok. Anyone else ever experienced this or know what is going on here? Thanks for any advice & yes I'm new to the forum as well as the bike. haha

Best to start a new thread, but here goes.

Seems you have air in the clutch system, that will do all kinds of wonderful, thought provoking things and can even baffle the brain on occasion.

Turn the handle bars all the way to the right, put some towels below the left bar to catch any spills, then check the clutch reservoir to see how much fluid you have in there, take the lid off to be sure. If it's black or brownish suck out what is there, squirt in some fresh stuff, get a q-tip to clean all areas, flush it by using a rag and squirting some more fluid until it's clean. Now fill the reservoir half full and carefully, gently work the handle a bit, don't do a full pump, just a bit of a wiggle at the full out position. You might see some bubbles rising into the reservoir, if you do, keep wiggling the handle. When the bubbling stops, wiggle a bit deeper and at the same time take the handle of a screwdriver and tap the union at the end of the master cylinder. Hopefully at this point you have not allowed your desire to give a deep pump the opportunity to be followed through. Making sure that the handle bars stay turned to the right puts the master cylinder at the top of the heap, so all air can rise to that location and be ejected out through the wiggling process. If you give too big a pump, you will drive the air lower into the system and you'll have to wait for it to come back to the top, overnight is recommended. Once you have all the air out, even the tiniest bubbles matter, you can now fully bleed and refresh the fluid by bleeding it out of the bleeder screw located at the slave cylinder, left side of scoot under the engine. Be careful not to run out of fluid as you do this, or you will be worst off than you are now. These clutches are a pain to get the air out of and the normal procedures of bleeding just does not seem to be very effective.