clutch mystery

[saddlebum]

So here is the mystery Let me start by saying the bike is an 89 venture royale clutch was replaced with a barnett coil spring conversion with carbon fibber disks. clutch slave has been replaced and the system has been bled more than I can remember and in various ways.

 

1st engine is cold clutch works perfectly neutral easy to find neutral light comes on and gear position switch works perfectly.

 

Now engine eventually warms up to max operating temperature, Clutch lever feels like all fluid has been removed from the system, neutral is impossible to find and when in 2nd gear it is not displayed on the dash its just blank.

 

In stop and go traffic it gets so bad that as you come to a stop the bike stalls because A the clutch will not disengage and B you cannot get it in neutral.

 

When you hit the starter to restart the bike once traffic starts moving even though you have the clutch lever pulled in the bike actually rolls forward as the starter turns the engine over.

 

So now you stop somewhere for a break you fuss until you finally find neutral but because the neutral light is not on the engine quits as soon as you put down the kick stand.

 

While sitting there with the key on you watch as the the bike finally cools down to a point where the neutral light suddenly comes on and low and behold you can now start the bike and leave it running with the kickstand down.

 

Now once the bike is fully cooled down its as if the fluid magically reappears in the clutch release system and all is normal again complete with a good firm clutch lever.

 

:bang head:...

 

Any ideas...

[Patch]

So here is the mystery Let me start by saying the bike is an 89 venture royale clutch was replaced with a barnett coil spring conversion with carbon fibber disks. clutch slave has been replaced and the system has been bled more than I can remember and in various ways.

 

1st engine is cold clutch works perfectly neutral easy to find neutral light comes on and gear position switch works perfectly.

 

Now engine eventually warms up to max operating temperature, Clutch lever feels like all fluid has been removed from the system, neutral is impossible to find and when in 2nd gear it is not displayed on the dash its just blank.

 

In stop and go traffic it gets so bad that as you come to a stop the bike stalls because A the clutch will not disengage and B you cannot get it in neutral.

 

When you hit the starter to restart the bike once traffic starts moving even though you have the clutch lever pulled in the bike actually rolls forward as the starter turns the engine over.

 

So now you stop somewhere for a break you fuss until you finally find neutral but because the neutral light is not on the engine quits as soon as you put down the kick stand.

 

While sitting there with the key on you watch as the the bike finally cools down to a point where the neutral light suddenly comes on and low and behold you can now start the bike and leave it running with the kickstand down.

 

Now once the bike is fully cooled down its as if the fluid magically reappears in the clutch release system and all is normal again complete with a good firm clutch lever.

 

:bang head:...

 

Any ideas...

 

Yep, your clutch is likely slipping. I would hazard that the heat is adding or contributing to the ghosts you mentioned..

If it were me, I'd strip the clutch down. I take it you haven't added anti frictions?

I've got a few days coming to me so drive up and lets see what you drive back;)

Patch

[Bob K.]

Mine just started doing the very same thing. I suspect a heat breakdown in the fluid or air in the line that expands when the motor is hot and heats up the fluid, and contracts as it cools down.

 

I'm going to start by bleeding and adding new fluid.

[saddlebum]

Yep, your clutch is likely slipping. I would hazard that the heat is adding or contributing to the ghosts you mentioned..

If it were me, I'd strip the clutch down. I take it you haven't added anti frictions?

I've got a few days coming to me so drive up and lets see what you drive back;)

Patch

Clutch is definitly not slipping. My previuos clutch was that is why I replaced it some years back. Plus a slipping clutch would not affect the gear position indicator switch.

 

Mine just started doing the very same thing. I suspect a heat breakdown in the fluid or air in the line that expands when the motor is hot and heats up the fluid, and contracts as it cools down.

 

I'm going to start by bleeding and adding new fluid.

As I already said, fluid has been replaced a few times and I have used various methods to bleed the system. I deal with all kinds of hydraulic systems in my work so I am no stranger hydraulic brakes and clutches. The gears are difficult to change even when you rock the bike back and forth with the engine shut off. But no issues when engine cools down. And as I stated you can sit there and watch the neutral light magicaly pop on once the bike cools down to a certian point.

[Patch]

Anybody ever mention you are a stubborn old saddle tramp? You know you're describing a heat issue, and we know you know hydraulics so; have a double shot of expresso then unhitch the horse trailer from the bike and get down there and find what is causing it.

 

Your cap vent is clean right?

[saddlebum]

Anybody ever mention you are a stubborn old saddle tramp? You know you're describing a heat issue, and we know you know hydraulics so; have a double shot of expresso then unhitch the horse trailer from the bike and get down there and find what is causing it.

 

Your cap vent is clean right?

Yup and I have even overhauled the master and replaced the slave. BTW I may be a stubborn old saddle tramp but I have already addressed all the aforementioned and common issues hence the mystery of it all. You would almost think the clutch push rod gets shorter as the engine warms up and returns to its normal lenght as the bike cools but there again why would this also affect the gear position switch. Over the past three years I have gone over everything a can think of more than once and have run out of ideas. Also I do not run any oil with friction modifiers usually use the yamaha oil since the dealer is close and gives me a good price on my oil. The only other oil I use is Lucas high performance motorcycle oil https://lucasoil.com/products/motorcycle-products/oils/lucas-high-performance-motorcycle-oils 10/40 or 20/50. I also do not use synthetic tried it once and did not like it as the engine ran quieter with non synthetic. I did have an old engine and transmission case which I have since discarded after robbing it of anything useful. I now which I still had it so I could dissect it and see what the common factor or part is that would cause both the clutch hydraulics and the gear position switch to be affected at the same time.

Edited July 19, 2019 by saddlebum

[Patch]

Yup and I have even overhauled the master and replaced the slave. BTW I may be a stubborn old saddle tramp but I have already addressed all the aforementioned and common issues hence the mystery of it all. You would almost think the clutch push rod gets shorter as the engine warms up and returns to its normal lenght as the bike cools but there again why would this also affect the gear position switch. Over the past three years I have gone over everything a can think of more than once and have run out of ideas. Also I do not run any oil with friction modifiers usually use the yamaha oil since the dealer is close and gives me a good price on my oil. The only other oil I use is Lucas high performance motorcycle oil https://lucasoil.com/products/motorcycle-products/oils/lucas-high-performance-motorcycle-oils 10/40 or 20/50. I also do not use synthetic tried it once and did not like it as the engine ran quieter with non synthetic. I did have an old engine and transmission case which I have since discarded after robbing it of anything useful. I now which I still had it so I could dissect it and see what the common factor or part is that would cause both the clutch hydraulics and the gear position switch to be affected at the same time.

 

In my mind it is heat related.

The switch is a side effect, its a cylindrical closed container with contact point and a spring loaded rod; its not hard to imagine it expanding under an overheating.

 

Look it is clutch related, if its not caused by the properties of the fluid then what? Ask the question what can render the fluid useless and you're back to a heat issue in this case. You are sure about the vent, hoses, slave and master so, what's left and what can cause that much heat?

If the vent was blocked then the hydraulics would be in a equal pressure environment reservoir side of plunger, and as you know that renders the action ineffective (it can't push).

 

Some years back on a mountain ride thru and after changing fluids I lost clutch action, in that case it was the vent, a simple fix. I could describe all you mention but for the position switch, so why or what can make that switch behave that way hot? It has to be overheating

[saddlebum]

In my mind it is heat related.

The switch is a side effect, its a cylindrical closed container with contact point and a spring loaded rod; its not hard to imagine it expanding under an overheating.

 

Look it is clutch related, if its not caused by the properties of the fluid then what? Ask the question what can render the fluid useless and you're back to a heat issue in this case. You are sure about the vent, hoses, slave and master so, what's left and what can cause that much heat?

If the vent was blocked then the hydraulics would be in a equal pressure environment reservoir side of plunger, and as you know that renders the action ineffective (it can't push).

 

Some years back on a mountain ride thru and after changing fluids I lost clutch action, in that case it was the vent, a simple fix. I could describe all you mention but for the position switch, so why or what can make that switch behave that way hot? It has to be overheating

Like I said I have checked the vent and even overhauled the master as well as taking the one of my other bike which is a twin to this one and trying it on the bike.

I agree heat is definitely the issue but exactly in what manner is the elusive part, as it only occurs when the bike gets above normal operating temp. As soon as the bike returns to or below operating temp the issue instantly goes away. I don't even have to ride the bike for this to occur. I can just leave it idling on its kick stand and as soon as the temp reaches a certain level just about the time the fan kicks on the issue reappears. Put a portable fan in front of the rad and bring down the temp, the issue goes away and all this while the bike is not even being ridden.

 

Bottom line for every possible cause I seem to find a contradiction. For example a clogged vent on something mounted on the handle bars should really not be affected by heat and should not come and go. It either is clogged or not clogged. If it is clogged then pressure would theoretically build up in the hydraulic system preventing the clutch from engaging causing it to slip or worse, but this is not he case. the clutch actually will not disengage once I get going I am using the throttle to work my way through the gears as the clutch is ineffective until such time as I can pull off some where and let the bike cool down. Also this is not a frequent issue as on a normal day I can ride all day without problems it only crops up on hot days in stop and go traffic or while sitting at the border under a scorching hot sun. For now I have learned to live with it but at the end of the day would realy like to resolve this issue.

 

BTW even though I seem to be contradicting you, know that I really do appreciate your input. I have a fair share of my own ideas that I end up contradicting as well but some where in all this there has to be some sort of viable answer. The biggest mystery is that one symptom simply contradicts another symptom like saying a tire is flat and overinflated at the same time.

Edited July 19, 2019 by saddlebum

[PastorCurt]

Back in the olden days I had a '00 dodge grand caravan that developed a restriction in the brake lines for the front calipers. the brakes worked fine but the hoses between the line and the caliper restricted the flow back to the master cylinder and so the brakes wouldn't release. And it was on both fronts. I put new hoses on and problem solved! It was worse when hot. I cant 'splain it!

[Condor]

There's still air in the system....

[cowpuc]

I would:

Redo the fluid change and take some time with it to insure I did not have moisture build up in the slave as moisture is definitely affected by the increase in heat build up from the slave being mounted to a very hot location. In the process I would also double check the fluid return passage in the bottom of the Master and make sure the Master cap liner was in good shape and functioning as designed. My final bleed of the system would definitely be at the banjo on the master = high spot in the system that has given many much issue!

Bum, I had one one time that in desert tempts would do similar to what you are describing. Once hot, the only way I could maintain any form of clutch disengagement was to maintain pressure on the clutch lever - if I did not do this, I would have no clutch (meaning I could not pull the lever and get any form of disengagement). I cured it temporalily on a cross country trip with one of the kids by putting one of my daughters hair ties lightly around the clutch lever to keep it working - worked perfect (much better than reaching for the clutch and having nothing). When we got home I did exactly as described above and BINGO,, problem solved.

[Patch]

I went thru the clutch diagram, thinking about what you said (it happening on the stand with fans on...) I got to thinking bearing or oil drive?

 

If you are 99% sure its not the disks, slave, master, lines, and fluid then you are going to need to open her up. For the fun and cause we know you have nothing else to do... check the oil pressure, eh.

[Bob K.]

As I already said, fluid has been replaced a few times and I have used various methods to bleed the system. I deal with all kinds of hydraulic systems in my work so I am no stranger hydraulic brakes and clutches. The gears are difficult to change even when you rock the bike back and forth with the engine shut off. But no issues when engine cools down. And as I stated you can sit there and watch the neutral light magicaly pop on once the bike cools down to a certian point.

 

O.k. Following in case fluid/air turns out not to be my problem either.

[saddlebum]

I went thru the clutch diagram, thinking about what you said (it happening on the stand with fans on...) I got to thinking bearing or oil drive?

 

If you are 99% sure its not the disks, slave, master, lines, and fluid then you are going to need to open her up. For the fun and cause we know you have nothing else to do... check the oil pressure, eh.

This is the direction I am afraid I may have to go because as I stated I have already been through all the suggestions mentioned by everyone and some more than once. Whatever the issue is there has to be some sort of commonality between the clutch system and the gear position indicator switch which quits working the same time the clutch acts up and both heat related. If this ends up being the case it may end up waiting until Flyinfool starts playing with his snow machine. I have lived with it for three years now one more season is not a big deal, as it is more of an irritation than a problem.

[Patch]

This is the direction I am afraid I may have to go because as I stated I have already been through all the suggestions mentioned by everyone and some more than once. Whatever the issue is there has to be some sort of commonality between the clutch system and the gear position indicator switch which quits working the same time the clutch acts up and both heat related. If this ends up being the case it may end up waiting until Flyinfool starts playing with his snow machine. I have lived with it for three years now one more season is not a big deal, as it is more of an irritation than a problem.

 

I feel your pain at this altitude;)

I'm going to go through my playing cards and see what I can come up with, I'll post later.

Chin up

[MiCarl]

The neutral indicator shouldn't be affected by the hydraulics or clutch itself. You've got something going on that exhibits itself in both those problems, although I can't hazard a guess what it might be.

 

I'm thinking something with the clutch slave install since the neutral indicator is right there. Besides, it's the hardest area to work with so the problem must be there.

[Patch]

So Bum here's my thoughts and maybe a question or two..

I went thru the overhaul section of the manual and I could not find an inspection port for an oil pressure reading??? That wouldn't stop me from rigging one if in your shoes tho.

 

One note I read over and over is "look for oil clotting" hmm.

So I ran some sea foam thru my 6lt when I was doing some upgrades last fall; it proved to dissolve clots pretty quick cause I blew out a high pressure switch which was suspect also noticed my oil chambers feeding the hydraulic injectors were in better shape afterwards say withing 200 klm..

So I would run a full can thru the crankcase!

I'd also take it slow swapping out the filter next time looking for signs of clotting in the banjo..

 

Don't know if you have already but I'd flush the coolant as well.

 

I'd also want to open middle gear case and look for bluing,, while there I'd check the key for the oil pump drive, likely don't need to explain how or why. Now there a note on 3-35 that the plate spines can cause erratic operation... And while you have the Boss in your hand 3-34 shows the tolerances.

 

Ask you this, would you hazard to guess the engine temp is much above 172* when the failure happens? Does she tick more or knock low even slightly?

 

Thinking here some might choose a higher weight and that's fine but from a wear point not a heating problem like we're thinking cause that will hold more gigajoules longer; just my opinion.

Keep us in the loop

Patch

[snyper316]

I have a crazy question for you all, this last time I flushed my fluids I used Dot 4 prestone brake fluid. I have issue with front brake getting soft which is perfectly fine in the morning at first start or when it cools down. A guy I ride with lost his clutch seemed to be heat related and I believe he used same thing. Makes me wonder if there isn't and issue with that brand of Brake Fluid. Just my 2 cents!

[Patch]

I have a crazy question for you all, this last time I flushed my fluids I used Dot 4 prestone brake fluid. I have issue with front brake getting soft which is perfectly fine in the morning at first start or when it cools down. A guy I ride with lost his clutch seemed to be heat related and I believe he used same thing. Makes me wonder if there isn't and issue with that brand of Brake Fluid. Just my 2 cents!

 

 

Here is a link to Amsoil, just as a reference

https://blog.amsoil.com/dot-3-and-dot-4-brake-fluid-whats-the-difference/

[saddlebum]

MiCarl;1065418]The neutral indicator shouldn't be affected by the hydraulics or clutch itself. You've got something going on that exhibits itself in both those problems, although I can't hazard a guess what it might be.

Three problems actually, because at the same time bike will not go into neutral whether bike is running or not until it cools down even if I try to rock the bike back and forth. And there lies my dilemma

[Patch]

Three problems actually, because at the same time bike will not go into neutral whether bike is running or not until it cools down even if I try to rock the bike back and forth. And there lies my dilemma

 

Maybe cause of the swelling? You know like how we age and retain water causing us to thicken;) I read somewhere, in some bar, in some boring town, that steel does the same old thing, but thru heat and will even at a young age; go figure

[saddlebum]

Maybe cause of the swelling? You know like how we age and retain water causing us to thicken;) I read somewhere, in some bar, in some boring town, that steel does the same old thing, but thru heat and will even at a young age; go figure

Well metal does expand and contract with temperature change and different metals and alloys are affected differently and so on that note I have wondered if and what could possibly expand from heat so as to consistently cause all three symptoms to occur and disappear at the same time. Sounds a little far fetched I know but when you have looked into every conceivable possibility your mind starts grasping at anything you can imagine, no matter how far fetched it may seem.

[cowpuc]

Maybe the hose section of the clutch hydraulic line has gotten soft with age and as it gets warm it allows for more expansion under pressure.. See part 16 here if I am once again failing in my attempt at articulating info: https://www.yamahapartsnation.com/oemparts/a/yam/5107f83bf870022108d65789/front-master-cylinder-2

[Prairiehammer]

Are you using new, SEALED brake fluid (from a hitherto unopened can/bottle)?

Brake fluid, whether DOT3 or DOT4 WILL absorb moisture from the air. Moisture in brake fluid at high temps will cause what seems like air in the system (some maintain that STEAM is actually generated. I doubt THAT, but the moisture and high temperature combined will definitely create a soft lever.)

How high are the temps that your engine is experiencing? In the red on the temperature gauge?

Perhaps, the slave cylinder seals are not OEM? The seals become too soft at high operating temperature and allow bypass of the lever induced hydraulic pressure? Did you hone, thus enlarge the slave cylinder bore when it was rebuilt?

Finally, (I have to ask) did this malady occur with the stock, non-Barnett clutch?

[Patch]

Well metal does expand and contract with temperature change and different metals and alloys are affected differently and so on that note I have wondered if and what could possibly expand from heat so as to consistently cause all three symptoms to occur and disappear at the same time. Sounds a little far fetched I know but when you have looked into every conceivable possibility your mind starts grasping at anything you can imagine, no matter how far fetched it may seem.

 

Man you Ontario guys always testing a Frenchmen comprehension eh.

Now I'll tell yall up front, if any of you guys think I'm going to look for the cord to turn the wind, let me assure you I have and it aint where yall say you last saw it!