Inboard rear brake pad wearing more than the outboard

[Du-Rron]

... Mr. Du no R Ron'g!

 

That's cool and original. I have had many people do many things with my name all my life but yours is a 1st. And of course completely original. Neat.

 

Yeah... anyways... on the washer (spacer) thing, I would just rather have two machined aluminum surfaces mating together and swap pads around every so often than to risk damaging the face of one or more of the surfaces by placing a steel washer in between them. It has been very easy for me to keep up with swapping the pads.

 

I think about all the man years of labor I used to put into just cleaning and lubing motorcycle chains so I don't mind at all the 10 minutes or so, every 5 or 6 months to swap pads around. In reference to all time I have spent with the other older bikes I have had, I kinda feel guilty I don't spend more time on the Venture because she is so trouble and maintenance free...ya know.

[Patch]

That's cool and original. I have had many people do many things with my name all my life but yours is a 1st. And of course completely original. Neat.

 

Yeah... anyways... on the washer (spacer) thing, I would just rather have two machined aluminum surfaces mating together and swap pads around every so often than to risk damaging the face of one or more of the surfaces by placing a steel washer in between them. It has been very easy for me to keep up with swapping the pads.

 

I think about all the man years of labor I used to put into just cleaning and lubing motorcycle chains so I don't mind at all the 10 minutes or so, every 5 or 6 months to swap pads around. In reference to all time I have spent with the other older bikes I have had, I kinda feel guilty I don't spend more time on the Venture because she is so trouble and maintenance free...ya know.

 

 

I get where you are coming from however it would simply bug the **** out of me and like others I would need to correct it to a reliable conclusion.

I don't like the thought of uneven pad friction, period.

 

I know on these models with the perforated venting you may most likely not notice pad angle as much as slotted disks which will grown like a steel grid bridge, still; in my view it remains wrong. The uneven pattern has to cause an alignment distortion while under pressure loud's. Now follow that distortion down to the hub bolt ring and the design spring (finger) tension is not flexing on its planned plain, (because the carriage is not parallel to the disk) you can't have it both ways, it is or it isn't! Whether or not the active pad is remaining true to the disk has to be asked as well,,, the piston must be 90* to the disk plain to be effective and deliver equal force over a give load bearing area.

There are no maybe's there's only a right way, not a place for compromise imho

Patch

[Du-Rron]

There are no maybe's there's only a right way, not a place for compromise imho

 

I think... there is enough slop in the retainer pin holes in the pads, the retainer slots in the calipers, and the rear piston extends just a hair further out more than the front piston, to make up the distance (?about the thickness of a suitable washer?) as to be auto-compensating. My brake pads have never been tapered one end to the other, just the pressure side worn down more, flatly, then the idle side.

[Patch]

Some time back (I know I'm not alone in this experiences) it was suggested to me to continue to process "stuck thoughts"

This is such a thought that maybe I hadn't given much effort to but,,, my last thought on the issue is, if a piston is forced forward, the resistance to movement is considered the effort. Direct transfer/straight line is required to allow the piston to actuate freely in both directions given the tolerances that are assigned it (eg. no binding).

When we look at the back side of a brake piston the pressure plate area and wall length with seal (s) should keep the piston in alignment, unless; and in these cases when the carriage is skewed.. The resistance from the pad is a given, and this unexpected angle at the load bearing contact surface results in off center "point" of contact ;;; so wait there's more ;;; the pad backing plate you say can take it, ok (I go there reluctantly cause it is a laminate) but not the piston and certainly not over time, it will move to the opposing side then it can and will likely bind; that sticking will cause the pilot to push the peddle further applying more force then should be necessary, the piston snaps out of bind locking the wheel,,, that a real maybe and in imho very plausible!

 

Not saying the rest of the system is well matched to the diameter of disk but this certainly can overwhelm the stopping effort

 

May I now have a gold star sticker please?

Patch

[BlueSky]

Something to think about for sure.

 

Also, if the discussed washer has an inside diameter that matches the bolt diameter and outside diameter that is as large or larger than the flat aluminum surface it's being pressed against, I see absolutely no concern in pressing it against the aluminum. it the torque is great enough to deform the aluminum surface, it is enough to deform it without the washer being sandwiched between them. Seems to me.

[Patch]

Something to think about for sure.

 

Also, if the discussed washer has an inside diameter that matches the bolt diameter and outside diameter that is as large or larger than the flat aluminum surface it's being pressed against, I see absolutely no concern in pressing it against the aluminum. it the torque is great enough to deform the aluminum surface, it is enough to deform it without the washer being sandwiched between them. Seems to me.

 

I think if you want to skin the cool black cat then the challenge as I see it is the bolt shank length. Technically Du RRon is correct because the bolt shank would be shortened by the say 2mm +- extension; which provides an X-axis for the joint to move and possibly wear!

 

Mind you too long a shank would get you in another world of hurt so if you have a bolt supply house that sells real thinking hardware then take that one bolt to them and see if they can match it but shim thickness longer (for this discussion say 2mm)

 

Or join a less smart forum that don't give a cat chance at sniffing out a rat's, ass;)

[Du-Rron]

... not the piston and certainly not over time, it will move to the opposing side then it can and will likely bind; that sticking will cause the pilot to push the peddle further applying more force then should be necessary, the piston snaps out of bind locking the wheel,,, that a real maybe and in imho very plausible!

 

Not saying the rest of the system is well matched to the diameter of disk but this certainly can overwhelm the stopping effort

 

May I now have a gold star sticker please?

Patch

 

I think you you may have something there. The rear brake on the RSV is super powerful (4piston) and super snatchy, and will lockup in a heartbeat, no matter how fast you are going or how great a tire you have on, if you are not careful. I changed the pads long ago from the factory (which I think are HH's) to a more forgiving semi-sintered brake pad (EBC FA123V) that allow me to get into the brake a little more before lockup. Course, If I stomp real real hard, they still snatch just like factory.

[Patch]

I think you you may have something there. The rear brake on the RSV is super powerful (4piston) and super snatchy, and will lockup in a heartbeat, no matter how fast you are going or how great a tire you have on, if you are not careful. I changed the pads long ago from the factory (which I think are HH's) to a more forgiving semi-sintered brake pad (EBC FA123V) that allow me to get into the brake a little more before lockup. Course, If I stomp real real hard, they still snatch just like factory.

 

OH! I'm going to look it up, I assume 2 & 2?

[Du-Rron]

Something to think about for sure.

 

Also, if the discussed washer has an inside diameter that matches the bolt diameter and outside diameter that is as large or larger than the flat aluminum surface it's being pressed against, I see absolutely no concern in pressing it against the aluminum. it the torque is great enough to deform the aluminum surface, it is enough to deform it without the washer being sandwiched between them. Seems to me.

 

Shim washers are ok to use as to the dimensions you stated above. One gets into trouble when the ID/OD'd are off, the parts is used for a while, disassembled, and then cannot be reassembled because the "washer/spacer" is now off center to when it was originally installed and the aluminum has taken a set to the old position. If there is any flex in the system then a shim washer should be used at all locations of mounting so that one location will not experience localized stress.

 

While our calipers are not centered over the rotor, inboard-outboard/maybe diagonally, we have two pistons on each side applying a pressure to the pads. The inboard side will be slower to activate because the outboard side pressure up first, then pass fluid to the cross over hole to pressure up the other side. They adjust, auto-compensate, for pad thickness, without regard where the rotor is, left-right-middle in respect to the caliper position, within the range of the pistons. They float the pads. I kid you not. One side can have 2mm of pad left on it and the other side can have 6mm. Push the pistons in, swap the pad positions, and after you stomp the pedal a few times to get pressure back to the system, you will notice that the pistons have adjusted now to the pads.

 

@dave_wells mentioned "Stiction" whereas we had to apply braking force, and then all of a sudden that piston broke loose and locked up a tire, and I think he may be on to something there, with a little mis-alignment of the caliper. I am agreeing with him on the "stiction" point. However, not to the point of changing my ways.

 

I think that over time, many many years, it has been commented that the RSV has a very powerful (4piston) rear brake, that can also be very snatchy and lock-up the rear tire if you so much as think about using the rear brake.

 

I can only tell you what I have decided to do about that. I have decided to swap pads around every 4-5 thousand miles (left-to-right) and I have replaced the rear brake pads with a Semi-Sintered compound (EBC FA123V) that, for me, stops just as good or better than the factory pads, lets me get better feel out of the rear brake, and I still continue to clean-lubricate the rear brake at 4-5K intervals.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Du-Rron

[Patch]

" dave_wells mentioned "Stiction" whereas we had to apply braking force, and then all of a sudden that piston broke loose and locked up a tire, and I think he may be on to something there, with a little mis-alignment of the caliper. I am agreeing with him on the "stiction" point. However, not to the point of changing my ways.

 

A correction maybe, Dave didn't mention Stiction he spoke of expansion..

 

Stiction is a tolerance problem that accrues under rapid friction cycles within very tight tolerances. That is not the case here, binding though maybe an issue.

 

Look in the end the carriage should be parallel to the plain of the disk. Pressures want to equalize but first they prefer the path of least resistance. Hydraulic fluid is about pumping volume and pressure is a result.

 

If there is an uneven wear issue check alignment, then check and clean the casting and pistons replace seals and boots.

 

If the two sets of pistons are designed not to exert equally then there is a flow restriction between the wells but the pairs should apply together and on time, an angle will interrupt that.

 

If you have a lockup problem then the system needs to be re-balanced, such as reducing flow or an adjustable spring tension accumulate. imho

Cheers

[Tennessee]

I've changed the rear brakes first thing on both my 05 Midnight Venture, (the inboard pad was more worn), and on my 09 Venture, with the lowering kit. It also had a more worn inboard pad, even with the lowering kit from Barrons which relocates the caliper near the bottom of the rotor on a different arm altogether.

 

I think it has more to do with the different pressures generated by the four different pistons, and their place in the hydraulic chain of events, rather than being off center.

 

I did not add any washers. I want the full allotment of threads from the caliper bolts, and am willing to change the rear pads every few thousand miles, since I use the rear so much in slow speed maneuvers, along with the clutch and feathering the throttle.

 

If you've ever taken, watched or even read about the Ride Like a Pro classes and videos, you see why you need to change rear brakes often.

[RDawson]

Since going to the darkside I find myself using more rear brake than ever before. Yes they wear uneven and like stated above I believe it's the nature of the beast due to the hydraulic design. To me it's a small trade off to change the pads more often to get the better braking and control.

[Patch]

I've changed the rear brakes first thing on both my 05 Midnight Venture, (the inboard pad was more worn), and on my 09 Venture, with the lowering kit. It also had a more worn inboard pad, even with the lowering kit from Barrons which relocates the caliper near the bottom of the rotor on a different arm altogether.

 

I think it has more to do with the different pressures generated by the four different pistons, and their place in the hydraulic chain of events, rather than being off center.

 

I did not add any washers. I want the full allotment of threads from the caliper bolts, and am willing to change the rear pads every few thousand miles, since I use the rear so much in slow speed maneuvers, along with the clutch and feathering the throttle.

 

If you've ever taken, watched or even read about the Ride Like a Pro classes and videos, you see why you need to change rear brakes often.

 

 

Good info Tennessee.

My view was not that one pad has more wear, its that the pads may be wearing at an angle, in other words not flat.

Patch

[Du-Rron]

" dave_wells mentioned "Stiction" whereas we had to apply braking force, and then all of a sudden that piston broke loose and locked up a tire, and I think he may be on to something there, with a little mis-alignment of the caliper. I am agreeing with him on the "stiction" point. However, not to the point of changing my ways.

 

A correction maybe, Dave didn't mention Stiction he spoke of expansion..

 

Actually is was late at night and I quoted the wrong person. I quoted @dave_wells and I should have quoted you @Steven G. sorry about that yall.

[Du-Rron]

@RDawson and @Tennessee when yall say "change the pads" you mean swap the pads left-to-right. Correct? This is what I do to even out the wear. I don't actually install new pads until both sides of the rear are worn down.

[RDawson]

RDawson and Tennessee when yall say "change the pads" you mean swap the pads left-to-right. Correct? This is what I do to even out the wear. I don't actually install new pads until both sides of the rear are worn down.

Yes I swap side to side to even the wear but I also replace them earlier than many others. I am very anal about tires and brakes. The tires I pull off of my autos often are installed as used on others. I have worked countless wrecks from hydroplaning and/or weak braking. Many don't think about tire condition being part of the braking equation. Before anybody says it I know I over analyze it and probably waste some $$$ being that way but after you see what we see on the side of the roads you can't help but think about your family's safety. My daughter told me I was nuts recently because while she was visiting I jacked up her car to look at tires and brakes. I only get to see her and the car every couple of months. The wife can't understand how I'm that way and still ride motorcycles so I guess the daughter is right.

[Drews]

NO you are not nuts you are right on

[BlueSky]

Yes I swap side to side to even the wear but I also replace them earlier than many others. I am very anal about tires and brakes. The tires I pull off of my autos often are installed as used on others. I have worked countless wrecks from hydroplaning and/or weak braking. Many don't think about tire condition being part of the braking equation. Before anybody says it I know I over analyze it and probably waste some $$$ being that way but after you see what we see on the side of the roads you can't help but think about your family's safety. My daughter told me I was nuts recently because while she was visiting I jacked up her car to look at tires and brakes. I only get to see her and the car every couple of months. The wife can't understand how I'm that way and still ride motorcycles so I guess the daughter is right.

 

If you never have an accident due to worn tires, it may have paid off. If you had one accident that worn tires contributed to, it would have been worth several sets of tires to prevent it.

 

I bought my stepson a really nice Miata with only 12k miles on it. His previous driving experience was in a FWD Ford Focus. Now with rear wheel drive and worn tires on the rear and not much experience he spun it out in the rain and caused a wreck. The Miata was totaled. No one was hurt but the driver of the car he hit had back problems so he contacted an injury attorney and sued. We sweated that one out for over a year before his lawyer and my insurance company settled the case after my ins co's PI filmed the guy working when he said he couldn't work any more. Anyhow, I sweated for over a year and brought the case to a close after I hired one of the best attorneys in the state of FL in that field to help. My ins co even paid my attorney's fees in addition to their attorney's fees! So yeah, I would have bought several sets of tires if I could have avoided that fiasco.

[Tennessee]

Du-Rron I do not swap the pads. I am more like RDawson, tend to change things early, rather than taking them to the edge.

And I use a lower cost Caltric sintered pad. Certainly not as good as say, EBC's, but I am only looking for about 5000 worth of wear, and this brand grips well, is very quiet with the copper plated backplate, and although I know it will wear quicker, I change them out sooner anyway, so no harm done.

 

On the other side, I can get a complete set of Caltric's for my Venture for $28.60 on eBay, or the fronts for $18.60, or the backs off Amazon for around $15.00.

At those prices, I can change brakes every year, even if I only put on 4-5K on the bike. At my advanced age, I don't plan on any cross country trips, just day trips, so I'm good.

 

Your use may vary. If you even commute to work, like I used to, you can rack up some miles every year rather quickly. That takes my current brake pad philosophy and trashes it. But for my light use of my bikes, new brakes every year is OK with me.

 

I like the way the Caltric's grip, the total lack of noise, and they should not glaze. And on these bikes, changing out a set of brakes is about 90 minutes tops. I don't want to swap pads then worry if that one was a bit thin...

[BlueSky]

I'm thinking I will replace my rear pads with ceramic pads since they don't grip as much as semi-metallic and metallic pads. The rear brake is to grippy anyway.

[videoarizona]

https://www.bridgestonetire.com/tread-and-trend/drivers-ed/ceramic-vs-metallic-brake-pads

 

Seems to be the middle choice.....maybe stick with organic for the rear for less performance???

[BlueSky]

https://www.bridgestonetire.com/tread-and-trend/drivers-ed/ceramic-vs-metallic-brake-pads

 

Seems to be the middle choice.....maybe stick with organic for the rear for less performance???

 

Maybe organic pads would be the best choice.

But, I have my doubts about the knowledge of the author of this article. For example the statement that organic pads don't generate as much heat as others is not true. Brakes work by converting kinetic energy into heat. For the same stop on the same car all pads will generate the same amount of heat. It also talks about ceramic not "holding" as much heat as metallic. I think what happens is the ceramic pads do not conduct heat as well so for the same stop ceramic pads will not get as hot as metallic pads but since the heat has to go somewhere, it goes into the rotor. So, the rotor will get hotter with hard braking compared to metallic pads. This may be good if there is a problem with brake fluid getting too hot because if the heat goes into the rotor and not the pads, the caliper and fluid will not absorb as much heat. Brakes with ceramic pads will not fade as quickly with repeated stops as metallic pads. And I think there is a difference in semi-metallic pads and metallic pads. I think that sintered pads are metallic pads and are different from semi-metallic. I may have just exceeded my knowledge of braking systems! Ha!

[cowpuc]

My experience with brake pads on my scoots is that I really like to use organics as I like the feel and performance they offer. They do seem to wear out a little quicker, especially on dirt/MX bikes where they are exposed to a lot of dirt but they always seemed to be easier on rotors. I also found them to be considerably cheaper and pretty much a break (no pun intended) even on cost per mile. I also liked them a lot as they smell funny when overheated and the odor will tell me if I happen to have a sticky caliper piston.

No idea if what follows will work or applies to the Gen 2 but I was wondering if anyone else is in the habit of checking the axle/rear end alignment during a reinstall of the rear wheel? One of my 1st Gen's had a habit of wearing the pads at an odd angle and I found that the axle alignment into the swingarm was considerably wacko. To check this I simply looked at the axle location on the smaller diameter as I slid the axle in from the right hand side and after it was captured by the axle journal in the rear gear case. I was amazed at how far out of alignment the assembly was and corrected it by shimming it between the rear gear case and the swingarm that is captured/tightened down with the four acorn nuts located on the front of the gear case/end of the swingarm on the left side (where the driveshaft runs thru).

A simple check for this alignment may also be to just loosen those four nuts up after putting the axle in and tightened down with the brake pads backed away from the rotor, if you loosen those nuts and a gap appears between the swing arm and the rear case assembly simply measure the gap and take up the gap with a shim to bring the entire rear end into correct alignment = bingo,, no more funny wear on the pads = as long as the pistons are kept cleaned and they are not sticking..

[videoarizona]

Yep. By taking off the rear wheel, then slipping the axle back in...you can tell the alignment. If the axle goes in easily, she's aligned. If not...loosen the acorn nuts, slide the axle in then tighten the nuts. The axle should move freely. I do this anytime I have the rear wheel off. Just to make sure.

Besides once you are in there, it's time to grease everything anyway...so why not one little extra step?

[Du-Rron]

Hi @cowpuc !

How you doing?

Best wishes to you & yours.

I have often thought that Yamaha should have stuffed a motorcycle under you for free with the way you gave them positive word of mouth. Now I think Hyundai should do the same thing.

 

My experience with brake pads on my scoots is that I really like to use organics as I like the feel and performance they offer. They do seem to wear out a little quicker, especially on dirt/MX bikes where they are exposed to a lot of dirt but they always seemed to be easier on rotors. I also found them to be considerably cheaper and pretty much a break (no pun intended) even on cost per mile. I also liked them a lot as they smell funny when overheated and the odor will tell me if I happen to have a sticky caliper piston.

No idea if what follows will work or applies to the Gen 2 but I was wondering if anyone else is in the habit of checking the axle/rear end alignment during a reinstall of the rear wheel? One of my 1st Gen's had a habit of wearing the pads at an odd angle and I found that the axle alignment into the swingarm was considerably wacko. To check this I simply looked at the axle location on the smaller diameter as I slid the axle in from the right hand side and after it was captured by the axle journal in the rear gear case. I was amazed at how far out of alignment the assembly was and corrected it by shimming it between the rear gear case and the swingarm that is captured/tightened down with the four acorn nuts located on the front of the gear case/end of the swingarm on the left side (where the driveshaft runs thru).

A simple check for this alignment may also be to just loosen those four nuts up after putting the axle in and tightened down with the brake pads backed away from the rotor, if you loosen those nuts and a gap appears between the swing arm and the rear case assembly simply measure the gap and take up the gap with a shim to bring the entire rear end into correct alignment = bingo,, no more funny wear on the pads = as long as the pistons are kept cleaned and they are not sticking..

 

Which kinda brings me back around to my post number 2 in this thread, where I originally said I had to have my axle in one position cause it was notched to always point towards the pinch bolt. That is because I followed Yamaha Tech Bulliten M2005-15 (enclosed here and available on this website) to align the rear end. Once I did the alignment and tightened everything up, I notched the axle so I could always go right back together with it. The 2nd Gen did it this way. For a while there were even tapered shims for the 1st gen (I can't seem to find that bulliten). But, anyways, you were spot on.

 

YamahaTechBullitenM2005-15.pdf