1st Generation Clutch Slave

[ChrisL]

Things are going south and I don't see a thread replacing the seal around the push rod so I have started a new thread. First I'll share a little history. I found my clutch reservoir to be empty so I assumed it was the clutch slave. I rebuilt the slave and bled the system only to find the clutch handle not pressurizing the system so I decided to replace the seal around the push rod in hopes I can figure out why there is no pressure.

I have removed the rod out of the hole, scraped the outer rubber away, and tugged with a dental pick & did what I could with a needle nose. That inner seal just won't come out.

Here is a picture of the new seal so you can identify what I am talking about.

Any idea how to remove the old seal and how to re pressurize my clutch system (or determine why it won't pressurize)?

[RDawson]

I don't believe that seal is going to help with pressure. Did you bleed the master at the banjo bolt? I just went thru the same thing on my sister's Goldwing and couldn't get pressure until I bled it there. Make sure to protect all the plastic from fluid, pump the clutch a few times and crack the banjo loose and see if you get air bubbles. Once you get the air out there bleed the slave again. Air gets trapped at the highest point right at the master many times.

[videoarizona]

:sign yeah that:

 

Chris, Bleeding the clutch system is hell on wheels. You can let gravity help. Open bleeder valve down low. Fill master. Tie the clutch handle back and let it sit for a day or two. But you need to find a way to keep the master full. Some have even taken off the banjo bolt up top and forced fluid down the line then put her together and bled the master. Only problem, if one little bubble in the master gets into the lines, you are back to square one.

 

Another way is to force the fluid back UP the line to the master. But again, you run into the potential of missing one little air bubble.

 

BTW, If you want to see those little air bubbles in the master I'm talking about....one or two should pop up in the master reservoir by just gently squeezing the handle just a touch! Little squeezes should move a bubble into the fluid. They get caught right at the junction of the banjo/master cylinder interface.

 

I didn't do either of above. Grins... Just opened the bleeder and pumped that handle. Took a long time! Like 45 minutes. Just because of that experience, I went to Harbor Freight and bought a pressure bleeding system. I use it for the brakes. Didn't want to change brake fluid and spend hours doing that by hand. The clutch was bad enough.

 

OH forgot to add, make double sure the teeny hole at the bottom of the master is clear and not clogged. That is the pressure relief hole. it's the smallest of the 2 there.

And when you "GENTLY" squeeze the handle, there should be a squirt of fluid up from the hole into the middle of the reservoir. Squeeze to hard and you will get a small fountain of fluid all over you and the bike. So cover your plastics! A tiny High "E" guitar string is the right size to clear the hole. Gentle with it!

 

The only way to pressurize the clutch system is to get rid of the air and bleed it thoroughly. BTW,

 

Regarding the seal. If you insist on getting the old one out, you need some curved picks to work it out. Frankly, if it's not torn or leaking I'd put her back together and bleed the system.

Edited May 25, 2019 by videoarizona
deleted stuff not needed. Added stuff I forgot, just in case.

[Patch]

Two things I do, fill the reservoir, crack the bleed on the housing, wait 30 minutes.

For filling an empty system I use a vacuum pump.

 

So a question, you replaced the rubber bits, did you replace all the crush washers at each banjo?

[cowpuc]

Also for many years I would lay the bike down and point the master upwardly so the banjo joint at the master was no longer the high point in the system,, then I got old and could no longer upright the bike easily so I started bleeding from the banjo itself which works just as good.. Couple little teany weany specks of air at that banjo and bingo,, no clutch as that is the high point of the system,,, IMHO of course..

[cowpuc]

:sign yeah that:

 

Chris, Bleeding the clutch system is hell on wheels. You can let gravity help. Open bleeder valve down low. Fill master. Tie the clutch handle back and let it sit for a day or two. But you need to find a way to keep the master full. Some have even taken off the banjo bolt up top and forced fluid down the line then put her together and bled the master. Only problem, if one little bubble in the master gets into the lines, you are back to square one.

 

Another way is to force the fluid back UP the line to the master. But again, you run into the potential of missing one little air bubble.

 

BTW, If you want to see those little air bubbles in the master I'm talking about....one or two should pop up in the master reservoir by just gently squeezing the handle just a touch! Little squeezes should move a bubble into the fluid. They get caught right at the junction of the banjo/master cylinder interface.

 

I didn't do either of above. Grins... Just opened the bleeder and pumped that handle. Took a long time! Like 45 minutes. Just because of that experience, I went to Harbor Freight and bought a pressure bleeding system. I use it for the brakes. Didn't want to change brake fluid and spend hours doing that by hand. The clutch was bad enough.

 

OH forgot to add, make double sure the teeny hole at the bottom of the master is clear and not clogged. That is the pressure relief hole. it's the smallest of the 2 there.

And when you "GENTLY" squeeze the handle, there should be a squirt of fluid up from the hole into the middle of the reservoir. Squeeze to hard and you will get a small fountain of fluid all over you and the bike. So cover your plastics! A tiny High "E" guitar string is the right size to clear the hole. Gentle with it!

 

The only way to pressurize the clutch system is to get rid of the air and bleed it thoroughly. BTW,

 

Regarding the seal. If you insist on getting the old one out, you need some curved picks to work it out. Frankly, if it's not torn or leaking I'd put her back together and bleed the system.

 

Typed that last post BEFORE seeing this Vaz ,, YOU are SPOT ON HERE BROTHER!!

[cowpuc]

I don't believe that seal is going to help with pressure. Did you bleed the master at the banjo bolt? I just went thru the same thing on my sister's Goldwing and couldn't get pressure until I bled it there. Make sure to protect all the plastic from fluid, pump the clutch a few times and crack the banjo loose and see if you get air bubbles. Once you get the air out there bleed the slave again. Air gets trapped at the highest point right at the master many times.

 

Or this one,,, sheesh am I getting geezerly or what here.. WELL PUT Corporal Newkirk,, WELL PUT!!

[RDawson]

I just re-read the op. Don't let that word ASSUME get you. Have you checked the clutch master?

[camos]

I am amazed whenever I read posts like this. If you know how to bleed a hydraulic system it will take only about 5 minutes to get all the air out. I have posted how to do it numerous times but apparently to no avail. Bleeding the clutch and the right front brake are the two easiest things to do on a Venture. About equal to checking the tire pressure mostly because getting up and down gets more and more difficult as the years go by.

 

 

Chris, Bleeding the clutch system is hell on wheels. You can let gravity help. Open bleeder valve down low. Fill master. Tie the clutch handle back and let it sit for a day or two. But you need to find a way to keep the master full. Some have even taken off the banjo bolt up top and forced fluid down the line then put her together and bled the master. Only problem, if one little bubble in the master gets into the lines, you are back to square one.

 

Another way is to force the fluid back UP the line to the master. But again, you run into the potential of missing one little air bubble.

 

BTW, If you want to see those little air bubbles in the master I'm talking about....one or two should pop up in the master reservoir by just gently squeezing the handle just a touch! Little squeezes should move a bubble into the fluid. They get caught right at the junction of the banjo/master cylinder interface.

 

I didn't do either of above. Grins... Just opened the bleeder and pumped that handle. Took a long time! Like 45 minutes. Just because of that experience, I went to Harbor Freight and bought a pressure bleeding system. I use it for the brakes. Didn't want to change brake fluid and spend hours doing that by hand. The clutch was bad enough.

 

[videoarizona]

I disagree, Clive. It took me about 10 minutes on the 2nd gen, but almost an hour on the 1st. Each time I've done it...the same. Don't know why. Maybe the tilt of the handlebars being different, or the angle of the clutch assembly. But I would like to agree with you and yes, I did read your post quite a while ago...even printed it out. That all said, it just didn't work for me. At least on my 89.

Edited May 26, 2019 by videoarizona
punctuation where a letter should have been...

[cowpuc]

I disagree, Clive. It took me about 10 minutes on the 2nd gen, but almost an hour on the 1st. Each time I've done it...the same. Don't know why. Maybe the tilt of the handlebars being different, or the angle of the clutch assembly. But I would like to agree with you and yes, I did read your post quite a while ago...even printed it out. That all said, it just didn't work for me. At least on my 89.

 

Yep,, I am thinking its the angle/tip of the bars/master Vaz.. I used to cut my bleed time down substantially simply by laying the bike over and getting the banjo below lower the master and pulling the lever a couple times = air bubble bleeds back thru the return hole.. Another spot that I have seen cause LOTS of people issue when trying to bleed the rear brakes on the 1st Gen Mk1's is the metering valve on the neck for the same reason.. As you know, your MK2 has a bleeder there but our MK1's do not. The secret to cutting out hours and hours of bleeding on the MK1 is to loosen the connector at the valve (just like loosening the bango at the master and bleeding there = same results cause the metering valve creates a high spot in the system) and bleed the system there..

I am also amazed at how time consuming it can be to gently move the lever in and out to chase out those tiny little air bubbles that can gather in hydraulic fluid as the fluid sloshes around or if someone fills a res to quickly cause airation of the fluid..

 

Edited May 26, 2019 by cowpuc

[RDawson]

There are multiple ways to bleed a system, almost like talking tires. I have the vacuum pump and a pressure system along with bottles and hoses. Yet I usually use the old pump em and bleed em way. When explaining to someone not familiar with it I always go back to the old way, no special tools needed and since it can be done out on the road everyone needs to know how. By understanding the hydraulic system I've never found one I couldn't get bled. The Goldwing I mentioned, I bled the new slave for 5 minutes with little pressure which told me I needed to go high. Bled the banjo 3 times and presto she had pressure. Back to the slave and cracked it twice more and brakes are good.

[Condor]

Things are going south and I don't see a thread replacing the seal around the push rod so I have started a new thread. First I'll share a little history. I found my clutch reservoir to be empty so I assumed it was the clutch slave. I rebuilt the slave and bled the system only to find the clutch handle not pressurizing the system so I decided to replace the seal around the push rod in hopes I can figure out why there is no pressure.

I have removed the rod out of the hole, scraped the outer rubber away, and tugged with a dental pick & did what I could with a needle nose. That inner seal just won't come out

Here is a picture of the new seal so you can identify what I am talking about.

Any idea how to remove the old seal and how to re pressurize my clutch system (or determine why it won't pressurize)?

I've done a lot of slaves on 1stGens with the 2 piece rod and ball, but not the 2nd so I gotta assume that your one piece rod is out of a 2nd. The seal sets between the slave and the block, and to remove it the slave needs to be pulled. It is not accessible from the basket side. Another trick is getting the steel rod out is with one of those skinny magnetic lost nut retrievers with the end that is about the size of a small pencil. Aluminum is non-magnetic so it'll attract the rod only.

The only way I've found to bleed the clutch and get all the air out is to force the fluid up thru the slave and into the reserve using applied physics. Take about 5-10 minutes. I have a write up on how and why it works and have sent it to a lot of members over the years if anyone is interested?? The trick that so many hang their hat on getting air out of the system over night by pulling the lever and tying it to the grip is an old wives tail. I think it's mostly passed around as hearsay and not from experience. There is no way in hell air will come out of the system, because the system is closed to the outside world... Some have gotten lucky and not done a thing and given up, come back the next morning, and miraculously the clutch works and do a happy dance. That's because the system was open over night and the air escaped. If anyone has the time there's a 50:50 chance that will work.

Also once the system is air free, and during regular yearly maintenance, the clutch can be bled normally using a Speed-Bleeder which replaces the standard bleeder. They have my highest recommendation for bleeding both the brakes and clutch. My 2¢

[camos]

I disagree, Clive. It took me about 10 minutes on the 2nd gen, but almost an hour on the 1st. Each time I've done it...the same. Don't know why. Maybe the tilt of the handlebars being different, or the angle of the clutch assembly. But I would like to agree with you and yes, I did read your post quite a while ago...even printed it out. That all said, it just didn't work for me. At least on my 89.

There is virtually no difference between the systems on a Gen 1 and a Gen 2. Yes the handlebars are different and the Gen 1 bars can be adjusted but that should not cause a significant difference to how the method I use will work. It works the same on both my 89 VR and on my 90 VR. Turning the bars to right lock gets the MC more or less level. Even if the MC is not exactly level the only difference is a bit less fluid capacity in it. An extreme angle will quickly uncover the relief valve port and or the intake port which will make the job impossible.

 

I have been bleeding the hydraulics the same way for over 10 years and can pretty much do it on autopilot so a variance of 5 or 10 minutes is insignificant for a beginner. The fact that you were successful bleeding your Gen 2 and somewhat less so your Gen 1 should indicate that you did something wrong with the Gen 1. That said, it is still better than the hours and hours or days and days others have reported for doing this simple task.

 

A short time ago you stated you think that pumping the lever slowly is better than pumping it fast. It is not and that makes me wonder what else you did differently. To that point, everyone who has attempted to bleed these systems must have noticed how quickly air will rise in the fluid. Remember, you are pumping from the top down so the slower you pump the higher up the air will move which adds up to two steps forward and one step back.

[camos]

There are multiple ways to bleed a system, almost like talking tires. I have the vacuum pump and a pressure system along with bottles and hoses. Yet I usually use the old pump em and bleed em way. When explaining to someone not familiar with it I always go back to the old way, no special tools needed and since it can be done out on the road everyone needs to know how. By understanding the hydraulic system I've never found one I couldn't get bled. The Goldwing I mentioned, I bled the new slave for 5 minutes with little pressure which told me I needed to go high. Bled the banjo 3 times and presto she had pressure. Back to the slave and cracked it twice more and brakes are good.

Quite so, understanding how and why something works is far better but by following simple instructions it isn't necessary to know the why of it.

 

Getting air in the MC pump is something that can easily happen and clearing that air is an absolute necessity before attempting to bleed the system. This should not be necessary to say but if there is air in the pump it will not move fluid.

[videoarizona]

SNIP

 

A short time ago you stated you think that pumping the lever slowly is better than pumping it fast. It is not and that makes me wonder what else you did differently. To that point, everyone who has attempted to bleed these systems must have noticed how quickly air will rise in the fluid. Remember, you are pumping from the top down so the slower you pump the higher up the air will move which adds up to two steps forward and one step back.

 

Clive, the reason I said that pumping slow is to warn people if they have the cover off the master cylinder, pumping slow will not create the jet of fluid that will squirt out of the relief hole and soak the bike, the person and the garage floor. If they have the cover on, then yes, pump fast and hard. Guess I didn't make that clear enough.

 

I don't know what I did differently between the 2 generations. I've found over the course of the past 3 years that the 2nd gen pumps up much faster after servicing the brakes and clutch than the 1st gen. It may be my technique...who knows. I'm good with just getting the job done.

[ChrisL]

I want to thank all the people who chimed into the thread as there is lots of good advise and to my wife who showed lots of patience working alongside myself who was frustrated to no end.

I eventually did get the rubber out of the hole by asking my wife to sit and pick away until it was thin enough that I could then pry the inner washer away (please see initial picture if you are wondering what I am talking about). My advice is to never remove that rubber seal around the rod.

I put the bottom end back together and managed to burb the bango 5 times in 1 minutes and it would seem to be bled. I did not open the master cylinder.

After topping up the oil I sat back and watched as liquid dripped below the slave cylinder and the middle gear case. I have ordered a new middle gear case gasket and washer for the 6 oclock position but it costs $150 for a new clutch slave from the dealer. I wished I would have read trying to rebuild the slave probably wouldn't fix it. Looks like I will have to keep the master cylinder topped up with fluid until a couple more paychecks enter the bank.

Once again I want to thank everyone for your words of wisdom.

 

This might sound like a dumb question but to be sure....the washer goes between the middle gear case and the head of the allen key head bolt (meaning on the outside of the middle gear case)?

[RDawson]

I want to thank all the people who chimed into the thread as there is lots of good advise and to my wife who showed lots of patience working alongside myself who was frustrated to no end.

I eventually did get the rubber out of the hole by asking my wife to sit and pick away until it was thin enough that I could then pry the inner washer away (please see initial picture if you are wondering what I am talking about). My advice is to never remove that rubber seal around the rod.

I put the bottom end back together and managed to burb the bango 5 times in 1 minutes and it would seem to be bled. I did not open the master cylinder.

After topping up the oil I sat back and watched as liquid dripped below the slave cylinder and the middle gear case. I have ordered a new middle gear case gasket and washer for the 6 oclock position but it costs $150 for a new clutch slave from the dealer. I wished I would have read trying to rebuild the slave probably wouldn't fix it. Looks like I will have to keep the master cylinder topped up with fluid until a couple more paychecks enter the bank.

Once again I want to thank everyone for your words of wisdom.

 

This might sound like a dumb question but to be sure....the washer goes between the middle gear case and the head of the allen key head bolt (meaning on the outside of the middle gear case)?

 

Before you give up did you get the copper crush washers installed on each side of the line where it bolts into the slave? Your leak could be there. Rebuilds can be hit or miss on these things but I'm running on a rebuild right now. Did you hone the cylinder smooth before assembly? If so it can possibly work.

Yes to the gear cover washer, it goes under the bolt head.

 

I re-read your post, is the leaking liquid oil or brake fluid?

[ChrisL]

Before you give up did you get the copper crush washers installed on each side of the line where it bolts into the slave? Your leak could be there. Rebuilds can be hit or miss on these things but I'm running on a rebuild right now. Did you hone the cylinder smooth before assembly? If so it can possibly work.

Yes to the gear cover washer, it goes under the bolt head.

 

I re-read your post, is the leaking liquid oil or brake fluid?

 

Yes I replaced both crushed washers then I took the slave off twice (hopefully they aren't that finicky). I did use a torque wrench both times I installed the banjo bolt with washers. Before I replaced the washers I was getting a couple drops of brake fluid and a couple drops of oil. Since I changed the crush washers I get the drips in the same location so I assume they are the same fluids but since I have paper towel down now I can't be positive. I will remove the paper tomorrow to confirm.

The inside of my piston wasn't that bad so I took 30 seconds with steel wool to give it a once over. I shouldn't have went up and down but I learned that since reading all the posts. If the piston isn't "honed" properly would that cause it to leak fluid?

[RDawson]

Yes I replaced both crushed washers then I took the slave off twice (hopefully they aren't that finicky). I did use a torque wrench both times I installed the banjo bolt with washers. Before I replaced the washers I was getting a couple drops of brake fluid and a couple drops of oil. Since I changed the crush washers I get the drips in the same location so I assume they are the same fluids but since I have paper towel down now I can't be positive. I will remove the paper tomorrow to confirm.

The inside of my piston wasn't that bad so I took 30 seconds with steel wool to give it a once over. I shouldn't have went up and down but I learned that since reading all the posts. If the piston isn't "honed" properly would that cause it to leak fluid?

 

The inside of the cylinder is what is honed. I'm assuming we're using different terminology. The aluminum casting has the cylinder bore that the piston moves in, it needs to be clean and smooth. If it is pitted or grooved the seals on the piston can't make a good seal. It's best to sand or "hone" around the bore so there are no grooves for fluid to seep around the seals. I'm fairly confident in re-using the crush washers so I doubt you damaged them, I rarely replace them.

[bongobobny]

You should be able to find a new slave for a lot less than what your local stealer wants for one. Try partzilla or boats.net instead, they are probably around $80 now. A lot of us have tried rebuilding and even with honing the bore a lot of times they start leaking after a few months or so. Sometimes they will last for a couple of years before failing again, but a new one will last for many years. BTW I am pretty sure the slaves are the same for the 2nd generation Ventures as the 1st generations.

 

As far as that crush washer goes, I too have reused them with no problems. What I do is I take a piece of 800 grit sandpaper and flat lap both sides before reinstalling to give you a refurbished surface for the washer to be crushed against. To flat lap, you just put the sandpaper on a flat surface and take the washer and using your fingertip move the washer on the sandpaper in a figure 8 pattern for a while. Go in one direction like ccw for a while and then go in the other direction. Do both sides that way. Also, when you put a new gasket on, make sure both metal surfaces are clean as a whistle for a proper seal...

[Patch]

Page 6-25 bottom right hand corner item one.

 

There are different styles of crush washers, some are ringed or have circle ridges, some, the washer its self crushes, those fill the casting pours.

 

At only 18 lbs trq. it is wise to replace the washers when the castings are old and pitted or they wont crush enough to seal 2nd/3rd 4th time around.

 

The reason I mentioned it was on an 86, SK was having a clutch issue I was busy and asked my boy to bleed it for him. He mentioned that he thought there to be a problem, later I went to bleed it and heard a wooshing (sorry don't know the spelling) sound then noticed one of the 2 washers was missing! Not easy to spot down there.

 

Regarding what Rdawson mentioned the honing needs to be done in a circular motion while moving the hone tool in and out, it must not have any parallel to the bore lines!

 

The stiffer the clutch springs the more back pressure on the hydraulic fluid, the more chance of leak.

[ChrisL]

It would appear the leaks have subsided for now. I noticed the clutch fluid is almost grey after a week. I think grey means water has gotten into it but it hasn't seen rain since last year and all this leaking and bleeding i would assume it got filled twice from scratch in the process. Well enough on this thread. I'm going to make another post regarding having a dead battery again and low RPM. See you over there.

Thank you again for everyone's help

Chris

[Patch]

It would appear the leaks have subsided for now. I noticed the clutch fluid is almost grey after a week. I think grey means water has gotten into it but it hasn't seen rain since last year and all this leaking and bleeding i would assume it got filled twice from scratch in the process. Well enough on this thread. I'm going to make another post regarding having a dead battery again and low RPM. See you over there.

Thank you again for everyone's help

Chris

 

Nope! likely hydraulic lines need replacing or old fluid remained in the system.