Jumps out of 2nd gear

[blueblood]

I have a 1983 Venture Royal that jumps out of second gear and has a loud rattle noise coming from the lower engine when the bike is tipped to the left. It runs fine otherwise and shifts through all of the other gears with no problem. I plan on disassembling the transmission in order to replace the 2 gears that have the meshing dogs for 2nd gear. Does anyone know which gears they are? I have looked at the Yamaha Fiche and can't determine which gears I need. I want to be sure they are available before I disassemble. Any ideas on the noise? Thanks

[Yammer Dan]

Do a search for 2nd Gear. You will find a lot of help..

[Dano]

1st off, are you handy with tools? You can square up the "dogs" on 5th gear (#13 on parts fiche), then undercut them. You can also undercut the slot on second gear (#14) to help keep it from doing it again. I just got done putting my motor back together after doing this. I have several posts on the subject, including how to use a drill press to aid in doing the undercut.

Remember, if you replace the 2 gears, you also have to replace their pinion gears too ( #6- 5th gear pinion). To prevent this from happening again, replace the plate washer (#5) and the thrust washers (#6 (x2)) located at the end of the final drive (pinion) gear. You will find these 2 pieces on the "middle drive gear" page.

 

Also plan on replacing oil seals, etc. 'Cause you're in there, anyway! If you need a list, let me know and I'll get it to you.

 

Go online to www.flatoutmotorcycles.com and get your parts there. Best prices and service on the net. DO NOT ORDER OVER THE COUNTER AT YOUR DEALER!!!!!! You will pay too much! If you order, tell them you are with Venturerider.org. Chris will take care of you!!

 

Good luck, and YOU CAN DO THIS!!

 

Dan

 

BTW, welcome to your new home for the next several years!!!

[blueblood]

I just did a search on "2nd gear' and found alot of info. I was a professional auto tech for 20 years and have rebuilt numerous manual and automatic transmissions. I am interested in the repair method that is posted. When you say undercut, I assume that you are talking about cutting the dog at an angle less than 90 degrees. How much do you undercut? Just slightly or more pronouced? I have a machinist friend who can do this very precisely for me. Also, how much play should there be between the groove and washer? Thanks

[Dano]

You're not looking at much of an undercut, I think (?!) I went about .01mm from top to bottom. Check my posts under 2nd gear measurements & cuts (?), something like that. I've got them posted there. It doesn't take much, it just helps lock in the gears. Biggest thing is to make sure that all 3 dogs are equal in width and square at the top before undercutting--refer to RandyA's post on the subject.

As far as the groove in the end of the driven axle, I was concerned about that also,(thread- thrust washer measurements(?)). I was told by Squeeze (our German super-tech- you'll like him, read his posts), that there will be a larger gap than before, but the plate washer that goes behind there is slightly thicker than the old one. Once again, in my posts about measurements.

It's a pretty cut and dry operation, 2 different ways to mate the cases together. Everyone and the book says to lay the gears in the top case and then set your lower on there and match up the forks, but I had my gears in the lower, they didn't move when I turned it upside down, and I just set mine on there.

The book is totally wrong when it comes to putting it back together, so just use common sense. Also, check your water pump impellor when you take it off, if it's plastic, replace it. If it's metal, it's already done.

 

Once again---- oil seals and o-rings!!!! Replace 'em while you're in there!

 

Dan

[blueblood]

So, I am going to back cut 2 gears, replace 1 full washer, replace a split washer (2 pieces), probably a good idea to replace #1 shift fork, and gaskets, seals, etc. I replaced the impeller about 15 years ago but don't remember if it was metal. Also inspect shaft groove. Anything that I missed? I am going to order parts and start at it when they arrive. Thanks for the tip on Flatout Motorcycles, great prices! ThankYou for the help and the great welcome! Tim:bighug:

[Dano]

you're only going to "cut" on 1 gear, which is the 5th gear. It has 3 "dogs" on there. Make sure you replace the valve cover gaskets and the bolt gasket on there while you've got the motor out. They will leak eventually and it's easier this way. How about checking valve adjustments? Easier to do now!!

 

Dan

 

Oops, my bad, yes you're cutting 2 gears, it's the slots on the 2nd gear, didn't read it right the first time!!!!! Sounds like you've had this bike for awhile.

[Dano]

One other thing about the rattle, check your bearings while you're in there, might be making the noise. Squeeze will probably come on here overnite (for us) and give you insight on that. He's 6 hours ahead of east coast, 7 for you. He's a VMax NUT!!

[blueblood]

I have owned the bike for about 20 years. Bought it dirt cheap because it would not shift into 4th or 5th gear and the guy needed money. One of the pins on the shift cage came out so I pulled the pan, retreived the pin and put it back in the cage. Have been fighting this 2nd gear thing with some success for about 15 years and actually have been in the trans once before. Sounds like you have hooked me up with the final fix. I adjusted the valves last time I was in it and I don't ride alot of miles. Thanks Again, Tim

[Dano]

Same thing happened to me on the pin, you might want to change the contraption that holds them in, when I tore mine apart, that collar that came over the pin was damaged, didn't want to take a chance on that again (125 miles from home when it did it). Looks like something on the clutch housing was rubbing on it.

 

Dan

[blueblood]

I actually bought the retainer at the time so when it happened again I could replace it. No problem since and I still have the new retainer. The bike now has about 60,000 miles, I think I bought it with just under 50,000 miles. Nice riding bike and it has alot of added equipment. I need to get 2nd gear fixed and start adding some miles. Our youngest of 3 children is now 16 so my wife and I will have more time. Tim

[Dano]

Oh, forgot the most important thing around here-------

we need pictures!!!! of your scoot, even you and the family's ok with us!!!!!!

[Squeeze]

I have not so much to add at this Point. Dan has covered pretty much everything. The rattling Noise comes basically from the slightly displaced outgoing Transshaft. Once the whole Shaft is back where it should be, the rattling stops. I'd check the Bearings, yes, but only replace them when i could call them worn. The Bearings are standard metric Bearings, but some of them have a Retainer Pin, which makes them Yammi Parts and a Lot more expensive.

 

Personally, i'd replace the Shift Fork of the second Gear anyway, but that's only me. If the Forks aren't worn on the End Tips and at the Pin which connects to the Shift Drum, they can be reused. But i'd rather bite the Bullet and pay for a new Fork than do such a major Job and come out not perfect because i saved 30 Bucks ...

 

Oh, before i forget to mention it, don't feel too sorry after you got it done. Don't kick your yourself and say, i should have done it ten Years ago. Winding out the Engine in 2nd surely is a special Experience.

[Freebird]

There's also a good article in the tech library.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=508

[blueblood]

I am going to order #1 shift fork as well. You are right about not having to do it over. I can't wait to have 2nd gear again and for small dollars. I went to your link freebird and printed all of it for reference. Is there a good place to get a factory manual at a reasonable price? Thanks Again, Tim

[zagger]

Other than the obvious hassle of getting the engine out, turned upside down and opening up the guts - the only step which caused me some consternation was compressing that big nasty spring to get at the washer. I made a contraption too lethal to show here but it was done in a few minutes - after saying goodbye to everyone I knew and might miss me!

zag

[PEIslander]

Hey Blueblood,

 

Here is a link to the 1st gen service manuals thanks to juggler:

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3384

 

Also a link to a thread where Fixit3456 did the 2nd gear repair following Randya's method. I did mine a year ago and it was sweeeet having a strong 2nd gear. As Squeeze said winding it out in 2nd is Special.

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2410

 

Good Luck

Rick

[Venturous Randy]

I am so proud of you guys and so glad you are sharing your experiences on this 2nd gear fix. I just hate to think of how many early 1st gens have been scrapped out because of 2nd gear. These old bikes are worth being brought back to their original glory.

RandyA

[blueblood]

Thanks to all of you for helping me with this. I ordered the parts last night and will post when I start. Rick, I downloaded the manual and I am putting it on a CD and read through the other link, Thank You! Zag, I have a press so I won't have to worry about a head-ectomy. Thanks for the input. I am a member on other sites but none come close to what I have experienced here. Thank You again for all of your help.

[blueblood]

I have my engine removed and disassembled. The clip has about .050 wear on it and the 2nd gear dogs have significant wear as well. Third gear is is poor condition but I had no problem with third. My machinist friend has both the second and third gears now and is going to machine them as you guys have described and hopefully I can get this thing back together soon. I have some pics attached but some did not turn out so well. Thank you again and I can't wait to have 2nd gear. Tim

 

 

http://s305.photobucket.com/albums/nn201/blueblood77/

[zagger]

Your little half washers looked about like mine! Now don't you feel better?

zag

[Dano]

If I were you, I'd take a break and take that red '68 in the background out for a spin!!!! Helps to clear the mind about what's going on!!

 

Those thrust washer clips look about like mine, almost chewed through. Looks like you haven't been too easy on those dogs, either!!

 

You'll love it when shes done!

 

Dan

[blueblood]

I am guessing that the noise I was hearing was from third gear dogs hitting and that is why third was so bad. I feel very confident that this will be the final fix after seeing the wear on the thrust washer clips. And ya, you're right about using the old Mustang to clear the mind. Hate to have the tires dry rot before they are worn out. Tim

[BJB]

I am not a mechanic by any means, so really don't know what I am talking about

While the bike is apart this much is there any percentage in moving the TCI unit at this time? I see quite a few posts about ignition problems and most fixes seem to be to remove the TCI and dry it out. So could it be moved now and save hassles later?

[Dano]

Yep, just re-route the harness to on top of the air box and strap it down there. Take it apart and bake it in the oven for an hour and a half I think at about 110d F. Theres a thread on it, I'm probably totally wrong here, but I know you put it in the oven!!!!!

 

Dan