Hard starting/carb issues?

[Winddancer]

Hello...

I am having a starting issue with my 2000 venture (107,950 miles),

first the back story

Last OCT the bike has been running and starting fine, no issues, MPG was good, only thing wrong at the time was I was starting to have the front right cylinder go out. (I have a new ignition coil ready for this)

I parked it, went on vacation, and when I came back I smelled gas, found it was my carbs were leaking, shut off the petcock, and rode another bike until I could pull the carbs

and fix the leak..

It wasn't until feb when we a had freakishly warm day that I was able to pull the carbs, due to the cold ass winter we had, and I don't have a garage but have to do all the work in my driveway..

completely tore down carbs, used ultrasonic cleaner, and 4 new rebuild kits, and new fuel line seals (one was bad and cause of the leak)

got it all back together, set the fuel adjustment screw @1 1/2 turns, and waited for another warm day..

Well, that day finally came,45 and sunny, good enough to put carbs in, once done I fired it up..

Usually on cool days, I need the choke so I used the choke and it wouldn't fire, put the choke in, and it stumbled a couple times then started and was very rough at ide,

gave it a little throttle, and it finally smoothed out, let it warm up to it for a spin and it seemed a little sluggish until it was really warmed up, so I went home and balanced the carbs, took it out again and it was better..

Next morning,2am, 37° try to fire in bike with choke, will not start, push in choke, will not start but it is now trying to, I play with choke until it find the spot it actually sounds like its working best, and turn throttle slightly and it starts, very rough again..

but once it warms up, it starts fine.. this has now been the way this bike starts,, it will not start with choke on at all, and will not start without playing with throttle, I thought I may have turned the fuel screws wrong so I redid them, but put them at 1 3/4 turns this time, a little easier to start, but still only playing with throttle/choke combo, once warmed up it runs great, but now also sucks on gas.. MPG is at 120 a tank..

I know everything is clean, and together correct in the carb, I have done it before,, on thing I did forget, but don't see mentioned much, is some had said one of the jets was shorter then the other 3, and I cant find that thread that says it.

But I am at a loss as to what may have happened or where to even start looking, this bike used to fire up first try no matter what, from 7° to 110°.. rain, snow, sunshine didn't matter it was 100% reliable.. now, not at all..

I pulled and replaced all the plugs, and fuel filter.. ran two tanks with full can of Techron and two with seafoam (alternating) no change whatsoever..

I know the little air hoses to carbs are clear and working as I had that issue before, and air filters are good and clean, and even removed made no difference..

I've got all three needed items fuel, air and spark checked and confirmed, so I am lost..

anyone have a clue as to what maybe going on???

Thank you..

Chuck

Edited April 21, 2019 by Winddancer

[Marcarl]

Air mixture screws 2.5 turns out might help. But I am thinking about not having to use choke at cold start, that shows rich in the fuel mixture. You mentioned a confusion on the jets, could it be that you have them mixed up, looking at the results you posted, it would seem that might be the case. Not that you can see with the naked eye, but the one is a fair bit larger than the other, and getting them wrong would give a cold not choke start and bad mileage.

[Winddancer]

Thank you for your reply Marcarl

do you know which one is the one that is suppose to have the larger one?

that way I can pull it and see..

[cowpuc]

Hello...

I am having a starting issue with my 2000 venture (100,750 miles),

first the back story

Last OCT the bike has been running and starting fine, no issues, MPG was good, only thing wrong at the time was I was starting to have the front right cylinder go out. (I have a new ignition coil ready for this)

I parked it, went on vacation, and when I came back I smelled gas, found it was my carbs were leaking, shut off the petcock, and rode another bike until I could pull the carbs

and fix the leak..

It wasn't until feb when we a had freakishly warm day that I was able to pull the carbs, due to the cold ass winter we had, and I don't have a garage but have to do all the work in my driveway..

completely tore down carbs, used ultrasonic cleaner, and 4 new rebuild kits, and new fuel line seals (one was bad and cause of the leak)

got it all back together, set the fuel adjustment screw @1 1/2 turns, and waited for another warm day..

Well, that day finally came,45 and sunny, good enough to put carbs in, once done I fired it up..

Usually on cool days, I need the choke so I used the choke and it wouldn't fire, put the choke in, and it stumbled a couple times then started and was very rough at ide,

gave it a little throttle, and it finally smoothed out, let it warm up to it for a spin and it seemed a little sluggish until it was really warmed up, so I went home and balanced the carbs, took it out again and it was better..

Next morning,2am, 37° try to fire in bike with choke, will not start, push in choke, will not start but it is now trying to, I play with choke until it find the spot it actually sounds like its working best, and turn throttle slightly and it starts, very rough again..

but once it warms up, it starts fine.. this has now been the way this bike starts,, it will not start with choke on at all, and will not start without playing with throttle, I thought I may have turned the fuel screws wrong so I redid them, but put them at 1 3/4 turns this time, a little easier to start, but still only playing with throttle/choke combo, once warmed up it runs great, but now also sucks on gas.. MPG is at 120 a tank..

I know everything is clean, and together correct in the carb, I have done it before,, on thing I did forget, but don't see mentioned much, is some had said one of the jets was shorter then the other 3, and I cant find that thread that says it.

But I am at a loss as to what may have happened or where to even start looking, this bike used to fire up first try no matter what, from 7° to 110°.. rain, snow, sunshine didn't matter it was 100% reliable.. now, not at all..

I pulled and replaced all the plugs, and fuel filter.. ran two tanks with full can of Techron and two with seafoam (alternating) no change whatsoever..

I know the little air hoses to carbs are clear and working as I had that issue before, and air filters are good and clean, and even removed made no difference..

I've got all three needed items fuel, air and spark checked and confirmed, so I am lost..

anyone have a clue as to what maybe going on???

Thank you..

Chuck

 

Dancer,, to my untrained pea brain (never owned or worked on an RSV like yours) what you are describing here right from the get go sounds like the classic stuck or sticking or set to high float, right down to the not having to use the choke, runs great ones it clears out and warms up and even the leaky carbs you spoke of. What happens (in some cases IMHO) is the valve that controls the amount of fuel into the bowls gets worn or gets a small blockage holding it open (not allowing the float to do its job) and the carbs will overfill. The over fill results in a flooding condition which will cause the bike to run fat (to much fuel) until it uses the excess fuel out of the carb(s) up and, because we are talking flooded with fuel at start up = no choke is needed and as a matter of fact = using the choke actually adds to the fuel soaked intake of air/fuel mixture being drawn in. Does any of that make sense or is this another one of those "dont try to follow Puc,, no one can understand him" deals?

All that said, I gotta ask ya,, did you replace the Float Valves when you rebuilt the carbs? If not,, there is a good chance that they will need replacement. If so, did you double check your float height adjustments before buttoning her up? If not, and it were mine,, I would hook up some form of a line level (old Trademens term for a clear tube filled with fluid to use as a level) to the drains, open up the drains and see where the fuel comes to rest.. You might discover that you are still dealing with float valve control, a saturated float (did you replace those when you rebuilt?) or even a missed adjustment there..

Just some thoughts but please remember who shared em (not always a good thing to listen to "Puc advice" )..

 

All the best in figuring it out Dancer!!

Puc

[bongobobny]

I don't have the answer for the jets but I will suggest to check that your carb heaters are getting voltage...

[cowpuc]

Also,, you might wanna swap in some new plugs once you figure out whats going on Dancer,, IMHO - these little "D" plugs dont take to kindly to being blackened by over fueling of any form...

[Marcarl]

Check the parts fiche for best all around explanation. There are a number of jets and they all ave different sizes and can easily become mixed, even when a feller keeps them all separate,,, don't ask how I know this,, it's painful having to redo what you just finished doing 'so well'

 

https://www.yamahasportsplaza.com/oemparts/a/yam/50045f8bf8700209bc794e6e/carburetor

[Winddancer]

Thank you Puc and Marcarl

 

@Puc... I believe I did change it, I used the kits I bought and used all but 1 washer because I couldn't find where it went..

and I believe I changed the whole float valve assembly, I will look when I get home, as I kept all the parts I swapped out.

put if it is the piece that has the fuel screen at the bottom, and the fuel needle in it, yes I know I did because the kit has them all as one piece.

here is what I used.. I bought the 4 pack, but this has a better picture of the parts.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Yamaha-XVZ1300-Royal-Star-Venture-Carburetor-Carb-Repair-Rebuild-Kit-18-5191/201921746009?epid=223432014&hash=item2f03795459:g:2A8AAOSwvNVcT7Lg:sc:USPSFirstClass!01952!US!-1

 

@Marcarl

Thank you for that link, it will help..

would you, or anyone know how they are numbered.. my guess would be, while sitting on seat carb 1 Rear left, carb 4 Rear right, 2 FR and 3 FR,

only because I believe I read somewhere for tuning, rear left is the main carb to use for syncing up the tuner, and that's what I always use to sync up the motionpro.

 

But I think it is going to come down to pulling the carbs again.. owell I got it so I can do it all in about 35 min.. hahaha..

Thank you again gentleman..

Chuck

[Marcarl]

Thank you Puc and Marcarl

 

@Puc... I believe I did change it, I used the kits I bought and used all but 1 washer because I couldn't find where it went..

and I believe I changed the whole float valve assembly, I will look when I get home, as I kept all the parts I swapped out.

put if it is the piece that has the fuel screen at the bottom, and the fuel needle in it, yes I know I did because the kit has them all as one piece.

here is what I used.. I bought the 4 pack, but this has a better picture of the parts.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Yamaha-XVZ1300-Royal-Star-Venture-Carburetor-Carb-Repair-Rebuild-Kit-18-5191/201921746009?epid=223432014&hash=item2f03795459:g:2A8AAOSwvNVcT7Lg:sc:USPSFirstClass!01952!US!-1

 

Marcarl

Thank you for that link, it will help..

would you, or anyone know how they are numbered.. my guess would be, while sitting on seat carb 1 Rear left, carb 4 Rear right, 2 FR and 3 FR,

only because I believe I read somewhere for tuning, rear left is the main carb to use for syncing up the tuner, and that's what I always use to sync up the motionpro.

 

But I think it is going to come down to pulling the carbs again.. owell I got it so I can do it all in about 35 min.. hahaha..

Thank you again gentleman..

Chuck

 

Check the install of the float valve, they can be a pain to seat properly.

It doesn't matter how you nymber the carbs, the bike can't count and it can't read either, but just for info: LF #1 LR @2 RF#3 RR#4. Look at your throttle cable and check which carb it goes to, that would be the base carb, next is the one it's mated with and in this case it's the one in front of it. Then check the linkage to the opposite bank to see which one is linked to the base carb, leave it for now but balance the last carb to it first so that both those carbs are sync'd, then balance the linked carb to the base carb. Now that that is done, do them all again once more. Everytime you make an adjustment, blip the throttle so that all linkages seat back to where they think they should be. The throttle blip has nothing to do with clearing the carbs or engine, as much as it has to do with proper seating and positioning of the linkage. Once this is done the only thing that might throw off the sync is worn linkage or obstructions in the carb throat,,,,, or leaky valves maybe.

[Patch]

Ok I know you have lots of info to sort thru so I'm just going to reorganize things a bit.

 

Rule 1 when having cold start issues, is voltage reading at the coils, you want 11 plus volts.

 

Understand that pilot jets are just that, primary idle jets. This mixing of jet sizes has to do with cylinder heat balancing. Jet size is based on displacement first then air flows thru the venturi...

 

After rebuilds you set the carbs on a bench for pilot and throttle plate positions (bench sync). this provides you a start engine calibration, only I start any and all of mine by setting the pilot screws just as you did!

Then after start I tweak idle then pilot screws and I count by 1/4 turns up or down, I may do them 2 times before I am happy then I sync the carbs, then final pilot although not necessary usually.

Another rule less than 7'8 turned out - the jets are too large, more than 2 3/4 turns the jets are partially blocked or too small!

 

You have spark - you have fuel - what is your compression? Those are the 3 it takes to fire providing the starter spins fast enough.

 

Puc is BANG ON and is what I would suggest to check for the source of this problem.

 

But because you mentioned weak coil you should compression test and compare all four jugs. If memory serves the minimum is 190 lbs and I don't remember the permitted variance between, off hand. If you find them low, look up "a case for fogging" we posted a while back.

Patch

[cowpuc]

Thank you Puc and Marcarl

 

@Puc... I believe I did change it, I used the kits I bought and used all but 1 washer because I couldn't find where it went..

and I believe I changed the whole float valve assembly, I will look when I get home, as I kept all the parts I swapped out.

put if it is the piece that has the fuel screen at the bottom, and the fuel needle in it, yes I know I did because the kit has them all as one piece.

here is what I used.. I bought the 4 pack, but this has a better picture of the parts.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Yamaha-XVZ1300-Royal-Star-Venture-Carburetor-Carb-Repair-Rebuild-Kit-18-5191/201921746009?epid=223432014&hash=item2f03795459:g:2A8AAOSwvNVcT7Lg:sc:USPSFirstClass!01952!US!-1

 

Marcarl

Thank you for that link, it will help..

would you, or anyone know how they are numbered.. my guess would be, while sitting on seat carb 1 Rear left, carb 4 Rear right, 2 FR and 3 FR,

only because I believe I read somewhere for tuning, rear left is the main carb to use for syncing up the tuner, and that's what I always use to sync up the motionpro.

 

But I think it is going to come down to pulling the carbs again.. owell I got it so I can do it all in about 35 min.. hahaha..

Thank you again gentleman..

Chuck

 

Looks good Dancer,, I am definitely seeing a float valve in the pic = good on ya.. Any chance you tested the floats for saturation by floating them in a bowl of fuel before buttoning the carbs up? I dont see new floats so curious how they looked/floated.. Also any chance that the left over washer was suppose to go under the float valve body to seal it against the carb casting? I know on some carbs the manufacturer uses such and missing that will not only mess up the float height adjustment but will allow fuel to actually seep around the float valve body and into the bowl.. Make sense? Same goes for some mainjet applications.. Miss a washer/seal and fuel can flow around the body of the main jet allow fuel to by pass the orvice of the main, IMHO of course..

[Winddancer]

Wow, Lots of info..

Thank you!!

now that its Friday, after work I am going to pull the carbs, hopefully the rain holds off until I do. if not sunday suppose to be nice.

looks like Saturday is a wash out.. but anyway once I get them pulled I will check all of the suggested items..

I do remember having really push down to seat those float valves, and the valve itself already had the washers on and if I do remember looking in there when the old float valve was pulled to to see if there was anymore I needed to do in there and I saw no

washers or anything else removable..

I did not check the floats, to see if the floated, I just looked them over and made sure the didn't have cracks or liquid inside.. I will do that too while I am in there, any reason I can fill bowl with rubbing alcohol to test the floats, easier to just dump out, and smell doesn't stay with you all day,,hahaha..

Puc as for the unused o-ring if you look at picture of the kit it is the big round one next to the lid seal on the left with a spring laying over it.. It is much bigger then the float valve, or anything in that carb and really didn't see a place that it would go..

I will also take bongobobny's idea about the carb heaters, and give them a check

the same with Steven G's suggestion about checking voltage, I know I got spark, but never really thought, is it enough of a spark?, luckily I have a full set of coils so testing, and swapping out if I find a bad one will be simple..

and while the tank is off I can check the compression on all four cylinders.

Thank you everyone for all the suggestions, I have a good list to work through and hopefully the answer will reveal itself in the end..

Chuck

[Winddancer]

OK.. After getting a late start due to having a meeting, here is a little up date, and more questions..

First off I checked all the coils, except the front left since it is not really accessible ,but that one has good spark and no issues when starting pipe heats up quick like the rest.

I also pulled all the plugs, looked at them, all, even the one on the faulty cylinder was tan.

Ran a compression test on all the jugs, all are at 180lbs

tried to check the voltage to the ignition coils, the numbers kept changing and never went to 11v on any of them, so I must have done that wrong. am I testing both leads , or a lead and ground?

pulled off the air box thing and have it setup in the morning to pull out carbs and started it up to burn off the fuel and check to see if my non working cylinder came back to life, but it didn't, however, I did notice that little piece that joins the 2 sides of the air boxes was smoking as it was running, a light white smoke that dissipated quickly.

probably normal, just never see it before..

and lastly, not sure how to check the carb heaters, but the fuse, and power to the fuse are good..

I do have a question on that "fogging" are you saying I should take some deep creep, pour it in the spark plug hole spin the tire (in gear) and add more until the level doesn't go down anymore, then let it sit for a day or two?

so tomorrow I will pull the carbs and check things in there..

 

2nd day..

instead of adding another reply I will just add to this one.

pulled the carbs apart, to check to see if the floats valves were leaking I hooked up a piece of hose to the fuel pipe, blew in and created pressure, once I saw pressure held, I lifted the float, and air released. did that will all of them, then I sucked in the air, and let it suction to my tongue and held it there to see if it lost suction, it did not ,until I lifted the float, all 4 carbs passed this test..floats looked and measured good, no holes, no liquid, and they float.

pulled all the jets and blasted them with air, and also put the right main jets in the right carb, had 2 &3 switched.

sprayed and air blasted pretty much everything, and put it back together and it seems a little peppier, but as for starting better I really won't know until tomorrow morning @230am..

I will up date this later on , once I know

 

thank you all for the help..

Chuck

Edited April 21, 2019 by Winddancer

[Winddancer]

OK.. quick update, after redoing the carbs it seems to start easier and with less choke needed..

but as I went to test ride it, and the power kept cutting in and out, and after messing around with it, got it running and was able to ride it into work yesterday and all was good. ran great, started great.

then this morning, it started right up. took off to work, stopped at the gas station, turned it off, filled her up, started her back up, and 20 seconds later it died.

started it up again, and the same thing, power cuts off and shuts off bike...

wiggled the main wiring harness, and started it up again.. managed to pull out from the pump but died after about 25ft, but this time, dead, no power at all..no lights, no nothing..

so I parked it called for a ride, and rode my other bike to work..

I have gotten a case of serious gremlins with this bike lately and it really sucks, as this is my daily rider...

so, now I have to figure out whats going on, and my first look is the ignition wires...

so I am not fixed yet, but I think the carbs are, and I didn't really want to just leave this thread hanging..

thanks for all the help..

Chuck

[bongobobny]

The symptoms you describe today sounds like the dreaded 2nd gen ignition switch failure!! If you double check, the radio should still work as it is on a separate set of contacts but everything else will be dead! There is a member here from Florida that makes a plug and play ignition switch bypass kit, just do a little search on ignition switch.

 

Now if the radio is also dead then the next suspect is a bad battery connection somewhere, with the ground at the other end of the battery being a common one. Sounds like you need to spend a little time with a voltmeter to isolate your failure. If you are not that familiar with troubleshooting electrical, we will be glad to walk you through a few things. If it turns out to be your ignition switch then there is some good technical information on how to rebuild the switch here, and also how to get the switch out in the first place as they use "safety" bolts with no way to remove them except by grinding/drilling the heads off, and the bolts are also secured with blue loctite but once the heads are removed and the switch extracted the studs can be removed with vice grips, and a little heat can also help.

[Winddancer]

The symptoms you describe today sounds like the dreaded 2nd gen ignition switch failure!!

 

Yea, Ignition.. that's what I was thinking too,

When I went to get the bike after work, it started right up and I rode it home, got home and it died,

left the key on started wiggling wires until power came back on, and nothing..

My radio has been cutting in and out too, and it was off or out, couldn't tell because the sun was too bright, but I will check that tomorrow morning in the dark.. I decided to check the cable into the fuse box as I have had other electrical issues down there, pulled the cover, wiggled the wire, boom, dash lights up.. start bike, wiggle the wires, boom.. bike dies.. so I think... and I emphasize "think" I may have and issue at the main fuse box on the ignition circuit, I have had this before on my Voyager, where I unplugged it, cleaned it, cut and redid all the wire connections, so I went to see how hard it is to disconnect, and find out you can't, it part of the main harness, which sucks.. but anyways, I had to button it up, and I plan to do further looking into that area today, or tomorrow..

as for the Keyed part of the ignition, I have been debating for years just to bypass it, and go with a switch, and will all of this, I think I very well might just do that, I just need to be careful about the switch I use, as it has to be able to withstand the weather since my bike lives outside year round, so if there are any suggestions on what I should look for as a minimum spec wise, please let me know..

Thank you again for your help and knowledge..

have a great day..

Chuck

 

*** oh forgot to add, battery is a brand new Dekka, just installed this past weekend, so I know that is good..

Edited April 25, 2019 by Winddancer