Times are interesting in powerrsports.

[CaseyJ955]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-harley-davidson-results/harleys-shares-tumble-on-disappointing-earnings-idUSKCN1PN1D3

 

I knew things were tough and getting tougher for powersports in general, but this is a pretty sharp tumble by any standards. Not HD bashing but making an observation about this trend that effects powersports as a whole. I speculate that the days of the $20,000+ bike are not long for this world, not in the world of mass production anyway.

 

So HD tumbles, no surprise but this far this fast is a bit sobering. Also that the 18 Venture did not sell out, what about this new Ducati V4 with all the mad tech and like nearly 220hp off the showroom floor. It barely cracks the $20k mark. Things are changing all around us, I'm optimistic that this will be a good thing for consumers in the long run.

 

Originally I thought it was the buying public loosing their taste for the narrow angle twin in lieu of performance machines, but I think it's bikes altogether. There are many 20-something folks in my family/friends and not a one of them seems to give a **** about bikes, at all. Not cruisers, not sport bikes, none of it. Even dirt bikes seem to be hit/miss anymore. I guess one fear I have is that mfrs like Triumph, Yamaha and BMW will begin to see investing in R&D as a profit loosing proposition. I'm interested in the interpretations of others, what gives, am I off base here? What do you guys think this means, if anything?

[MiCarl]

I don't think young people are "motor crazy" like many of us are/were growing up. Quite a few of them aren't even interested in driving a cage, they just use a ride hailing service when they need to get from A to B. Their passions tend to have display screens.

 

Many have so much debt they may never be able to own a home much less a $20,000 + ride.

 

Traffic continues to get worse and many drivers are fiddling with a phone or on dope. It takes a lot of the pleasure away from riding.

 

I think the market contraction will continue and many, including HD, will cease to exist. I wouldn't be surprised if in ten years Honda and Suzuki are the only mass market brands.

[cowpuc]

It's a simple rule,, America got sold out,, and in more ways then 1..

 

1. The Globalist who have been in charge of the U.S. for decades now, thru trade agreements like NAFTA, have all but given our manufacturing jobs away.

 

2. I have actually seen this happen many times over and KNOW that its real. Thru weak International Trade Laws, foreign countries can (and DO) come here and steal our manufacturing (and I am sure even high tech Military secrets) technologies, copycat it and then bring in identical product. I watched this exact thing happen to a company called "BBR" with their PitBikes back in the early 80's. I was at a Dealer Expo, BBR was there with the new high end stuff (REALLY COOL), the Chinese were there looking for dealers for there fairly thin line of Mopeds but they were also DownStairs openly taking pictures of the BBR stuff. The very next year the Chinese had almost the whole upstairs COVERED with copy cat BBR pit bikes.

 

3. Public Education: When I was a kid our Public School taught history with pride and truth. We learned about WW2, Civil War, Revolutionary War. We actually said the Pledge of Allegiance and opened with Prayer.. I went thru 4 years of Hard Materials and Auto Shop, and Electronics in my high school years. Being "Blue Collar" back then was actually a thing of pride. I left school with a diploma and walked right into one of highest paying shops (and there were a TON of them) and began my Machining experience running Turret Lathe beside men who were successfully raising families. I was RICH,, bought a house bought the 1st 250 Elsinore in West Mich brand new - with cash, bought a new Jeep CJ5, lived high on the hog. Then when the Boiler Makers opened the apprentiship I jumped ship and tripled my income over night.. I LOVED working and learning. Today's Public education is lacking in some of this, they have to be because the Socialist idea of getting something for nothing that plagues our youth (and a lot of geezers too) has to be coming from somewhere.

 

4. The stupiding of the U.S. = Open dishonesty in Governing and in Business. It amazes me when I see otherwise intellengent people by into things and except things as fact when the powers that be make certain decisions for them. In other words,, critical thinking skills seem to have gone right out the window. Little things like when building 7 went down and the country was told that steel now melts at 700 degrees, nobody had a problem with it. Or when a company like Polaris buys out a brand name like Indian and then starts proclaiming that the Indian Motorcycle Company never went under and that they (Indian Motorcycle Company) is now producing again and that they are NOT Polaris Motorcycles.. I KNOW, sounds crazy, as in WHO CARES PUC - as long as they sell,, right? Well, to be honest with you,, I do.. I do because its another step away from truth and honesty AND its a business that I have been passionate about for years to come. Dishonest hurts us as a people and as a country..

 

The fingers on my right hand are aching (cant use my left anymore) so I gotta quit but that should be enough to get started with my response here.. Remember Casey,, you asked for this:hihi:

 

Quick bottom line,, everything from work ethic to available decent paying jobs to a huge loss in personal respondsibility to the destruction of the family unit play into the deeper end of the answer of your question IMHO

[Marcarl]

I see a lot of kids,,, up to age 35 or so, being very busy on the net and on their phones. Obviously you can't ride and to all that effectively, so riding doesn't even enter the picture,,,,, neither does talking to you neighbor, saying hi on the street, helping out somebody with snow or yard work..........

[leroy]

It's a simple rule,, America got sold out,, and in more ways then 1..

 

1. The Globalist who have been in charge of the U.S. for decades now, thru trade agreements like NAFTA, have all but given our manufacturing jobs away.

 

2. I have actually seen this happen many times over and KNOW that its real. Thru weak International Trade Laws, foreign countries can (and DO) come here and steal our manufacturing (and I am sure even high tech Military secrets) technologies, copycat it and then bring in identical product. I watched this exact thing happen to a company called "BBR" with their PitBikes back in the early 80's. I was at a Dealer Expo, BBR was there with the new high end stuff (REALLY COOL), the Chinese were there looking for dealers for there fairly thin line of Mopeds but they were also DownStairs openly taking pictures of the BBR stuff. The very next year the Chinese had almost the whole upstairs COVERED with copy cat BBR pit bikes.

 

3. Public Education: When I was a kid our Public School taught history with pride and truth. We learned about WW2, Civil War, Revolutionary War. We actually said the Pledge of Allegiance and opened with Prayer.. I went thru 4 years of Hard Materials and Auto Shop, and Electronics in my high school years. Being "Blue Collar" back then was actually a thing of pride. I left school with a diploma and walked right into one of highest paying shops (and there were a TON of them) and began my Machining experience running Turret Lathe beside men who were successfully raising families. I was RICH,, bought a house bought the 1st 250 Elsinore in West Mich brand new - with cash, bought a new Jeep CJ5, lived high on the hog. Then when the Boiler Makers opened the apprentiship I jumped ship and tripled my income over night.. I LOVED working and learning. Today's Public education is lacking in some of this, they have to be because the Socialist idea of getting something for nothing that plagues our youth (and a lot of geezers too) has to be coming from somewhere.

 

4. The stupiding of the U.S. = Open dishonesty in Governing and in Business. It amazes me when I see otherwise intellengent people by into things and except things as fact when the powers that be make certain decisions for them. In other words,, critical thinking skills seem to have gone right out the window. Little things like when building 7 went down and the country was told that steel now melts at 700 degrees, nobody had a problem with it. Or when a company like Polaris buys out a brand name like Indian and then starts proclaiming that the Indian Motorcycle Company never went under and that they (Indian Motorcycle Company) is now producing again and that they are NOT Polaris Motorcycles.. I KNOW, sounds crazy, as in WHO CARES PUC - as long as they sell,, right? Well, to be honest with you,, I do.. I do because its another step away from truth and honesty AND its a business that I have been passionate about for years to come. Dishonest hurts us as a people and as a country..

 

The fingers on my right hand are aching (cant use my left anymore) so I gotta quit but that should be enough to get started with my response here.. Remember Casey,, you asked for this:hihi:

 

Quick bottom line,, everything from work ethic to available decent paying jobs to a huge loss in personal respondsibility to the destruction of the family unit play into the deeper end of the answer of your question IMHO

 

 

Man, you are so right on. Especially in the education department, dumbing down of America. I have witnessed it first hand. I hesitate to admit that I was a teacher a total 30 years but not all at once. I had real jobs before teaching and during my career.

 

I graduated from high school in 1967. Yes, I took college prep courses but had no idea that is what they were. I took practical courses also. When I left high school I could have went into the electrician field with not trouble. I knew how to work with wood. I could make machine drawings or blueprints. I liked science, math, history, and anything with an engine. Started doing my own work on my bicycle, then motorcycle, then car as soon as I could turn a wrench.

 

I taught math, 7-12, from basic to calculus including some college classes. Every class I taught I could have taught out of high school. With all of my college hours, over 200, I have to say not a one of them has helped me in the real world except get a teaching job and maybe open a door to a job. Once in that door they were useless.

 

Today's education system sucks. There is no nice way to put it. Most of the teachers really cannot do anything else. They went to school from K thru 12 and have no clue what a person really needs in the real world. The state tells them what to teach and that is the state test. If a person knows something and bucks the system they are forced out. Thank God I retired the year I did or I would have been in the hot seat. Been there done that before but now I'm too old to screw with the fools. Example in point, all Texas students must take algebra I, geometry, and algebra II. I ask why? Not everyone is a math person. In Texas they gear it all to college. When they graduate they can't scratch their A$$ with both hands.

 

One other thing on the decline in motorcycle interest. Besides not being gear heads as most of us were growing up how many know or even could learn to shift gears thus the arrival of automatic MCs. They are used to comfort as in AC. They do not know "roughing it". How many have ever pushed a lawn mower? Dug a drainage ditch? Helped roof a house? Worked in a garden/field? Hauled hay? Worked at a gas station? Like said above they would rather hale a ride or pay for anything they want (or parents pay for it).

 

I am glad I grew up when I did.

[cowpuc]

I see a lot of kids,,, up to age 35 or so, being very busy on the net and on their phones. Obviously you can't ride and to all that effectively, so riding doesn't even enter the picture,,,,, neither does talking to you neighbor, saying hi on the street, helping out somebody with snow or yard work..........

 

I do know there is a LOT to it all but I still think that over all, the greastest part of the failure concerning the bike trade is an economic one in nature. If we had the jobs back that were given away to help/support the globalist/socialist agenda and were vibrant and strong economically by the American worker being revived to a level that we were during and right after WW2 and up till when the Globalist took power, I think things could/would correct fairly quickly. Take away the give me it for "free" programs once the demand for a work force is re-established and the folks working two jobs for peanuts or living off the taxpayer have REAL jobs that pay REAL livable wages (it's called Capitalism,, completely the opposite of Socialism) it would be amazing how fast the demand for luxury items (like bikes) would sky rocket.

Have you guys ever seen the show "Shark Tank"? I will never forget the first time I saw it.. Tip says to me: Honey, with your love for economics and the American way of life,, you have GOT to sit down and watch this - it is #1 on the charts. After watching that show one time, I looked at Tippy and said, outloud,, "THAT IS DISCUSTING"!! She said - what,, why?? I said, "think about it this way,, that show is based TOTALLY and SOLEY on what our U.S. way of life is suppose to be! To me - seeing that the dynamics of that show are so foreign and amazing to my fellow countrymen that they flocked to it on TV and are amazed at such a uncommon and amazing thing taking place was down right sickening. What that show represented to me was/is suppose to be an EVERYDAY occurrence and what our country is built on, not some marvel of Hollywood. Not something that any of us Americans should be shocked to see! Disconcerting to say the least,, at least from my old school, geezerly perspective..

I really truly think that if the younger generations had NO freebie handouts to rely on but had jobs that paid 6 digits for going in and WORKING,, they dont know it because of what they have been sold as a replacement way of life but I think they would be amazed at how rewarding working for a living truly is and would GLADLY turn their backs on the bill of goods they have been sold by dishonesty and trickery and they would kick the Socialist to the perverbial curb. I also think they would GLADLY be riding around on new Harleys, raising their kids in new homes and driving new cars if they had the cash.

[leroy]

Cowpuc,

 

One thing I forgot to mention, do you see kids riding bicycles? Hell, I rode mine all over and it was only one speed.

 

Also, when I graduated from high school, as you related to, there were places a guy could go to work, learn a trade, and get a good paying job. I know of many guys near my age who graduated from a small school in my birth town and went to work at Fisher Body, or Ford, or Cincinnati Milling Machine. Made good money starting and learning and moving up. True they all worked either on the farm or at a gas station or food store, or mowed lawns all the way through high school so they had work ethics, a thing of the past.

 

I'd go back to visit relatives in that small town, Williamsburg, Ohio. Man these guys age 18, 19 20, 21, and older were driving some hot cars (and they knew how to work on them) plus putting bread on the table. Two of them I still visit from time to time have their own collection of hot cars thanks to their hard work and the factories that used to exist.

 

I am not sure where it is all going but one think for sure is at age 70 my time I will have to endure is limited.

[djh3]

Puc, answer to the question approx 2500 degrees. As a fun fact Jet A burns @ 2700+ Where is our motorcycling community going? Heck HD and the others have been asking this question for a few years now trying to catch up. So far no answers, but whoda thunk Sears would be bankrupt either? I now am working in the College education system here in Fla as a "instructional aide" in the automotive section. Because I did not get the final few hours for a degree I do not "qualify" or whatever they call it for the higher pay. I have 3yr experience prior to military service, 20 yr aircraft maintenance on large aircraft, 20 years building race cars fabrication so on and so on, but for lack of a piece of paper the higher pay aint there. So at my rate of pay, if these politicians get this 15 dollar an hour minimum wage passed I guess I'll go flip burgers and make more money. I hate this "you owe me" attitude crap. And if I could ban cell phones in our class I'd put them all in a box when they walk thru the door.

[cowpuc]

Cowpuc,

 

One thing I forgot to mention, do you see kids riding bicycles? Hell, I rode mine all over and it was only one speed.

 

Also, when I graduated from high school, as you related to, there were places a guy could go to work, learn a trade, and get a good paying job. I know of many guys near my age who graduated from a small school in my birth town and went to work at Fisher Body, or Ford, or Cincinnati Milling Machine. Made good money starting and learning and moving up. True they all worked either on the farm or at a gas station or food store, or mowed lawns all the way through high school so they had work ethics, a thing of the past.

 

I'd go back to visit relatives in that small town, Williamsburg, Ohio. Man these guys age 18, 19 20, 21, and older were driving some hot cars (and they knew how to work on them) plus putting bread on the table. Two of them I still visit from time to time have their own collection of hot cars thanks to their hard work and the factories that used to exist.

 

I am not sure where it is all going but one think for sure is at age 70 my time I will have to endure is limited.

 

Oh heck yea Leroy,, bicycling and even modding bikes was a way of life growing up as a kid in the mid 60's. We had no money (there were a couple rich kids in the area that had the luxury of owning something like a Schwinn factory Stingray with those really cool racing slicks on the back and even one who later got a Krate bike called an Orange Peel or something like that (us actual gear heads were already fooling with Mini Bikes by that time but my MO was more along the line of building em from junk - cutting the hollow tubes off a Huffy and hanging them on Schwinn solid tubes to make choppers ) so kids on junk bikes were very popular. Besides everyday transportation as a 9 year old, I would make a regular monthly or even a couple times a month to a place called "Strevel's Market" on Old Grand Haven Road from my house in Fruitport. It was about 12 miles from our home to the store front. This is gonna sound nuts but the entire reason for the trip was my hunt for horizontal shaft engines with great plans in my head for altering my bicycle into gas powered.. Even back then, gearheadedness as a way of life for myself and many others. The days were filled with an "I can make it go" attitude, another something that has been lost IMHO.

Crazy as it sounds, I went to work at 14 years old at an old Sunoco gas station making 60 cents an hour. Pumping 260 into those early Muscle cars was pure BLISS!! I used to love smell the unburned fuel sneaking past the lumpy valve overlap idling cars as they sat there rockin and rolling in front of the pumps with dials on em - we are talking INTOXICATING here brother. I hadnt been there very long and my boss seen something special in me and invited me into the garage to help spinning wrenches. Occasionally he and I would actually get to play with one of those big block pavement rippers.. Sooo much fun!! A day and age when being a gearhead was not just respectable but a way of life.. Living the REAL American dream,, working for living and enjoying EVERY minute of it..

[cowpuc]

Puc, answer to the question approx 2500 degrees. As a fun fact Jet A burns @ 2700+ Where is our motorcycling community going? Heck HD and the others have been asking this question for a few years now trying to catch up. So far no answers, but whoda thunk Sears would be bankrupt either? I now am working in the College education system here in Fla as a "instructional aide" in the automotive section. Because I did not get the final few hours for a degree I do not "qualify" or whatever they call it for the higher pay. I have 3yr experience prior to military service, 20 yr aircraft maintenance on large aircraft, 20 years building race cars fabrication so on and so on, but for lack of a piece of paper the higher pay aint there. So at my rate of pay, if these politicians get this 15 dollar an hour minimum wage passed I guess I'll go flip burgers and make more money. I hate this "you owe me" attitude crap. And if I could ban cell phones in our class I'd put them all in a box when they walk thru the door.

 

Yep, the issue with building 7 was that it did not get hit or make contact with Jet Fuel.. The steel in Building 7 was only exposed to fire from office material = no where close to 2500..

 

I TOTALLY hear ya DJ on the not having a sheepskin routine brother!! After I got married and we started our family (4 kids) it became apparent that more yearly income might come in handy. Tip was busy at home teaching/raising our kids (we home schooled em, she was a school teacher when we met - stayed home and taught them all the way thru high school = AMAZING WOMEN SHE IS) and I have always been the sole bread winner as it were. I had been in skilled trades for years in Machine Repair, tigging pipe for the BoilerMakers and a bunch of machine tool maintenance/electrical work and seen a really good paying Maintenance Management Job come to my attention. I applied for it and got told that I was actually the person with the best background experience but because I didnt have a College Education they could not hire me, THAT REALLY HURT!! This inspired me to go back to school as a non-traditional student (I was 39 years old. It was TOUGH working full time and going to night school full time but we managed and I ended up with a 4 year degree and a GPA of 3.96 (I graduated high school with a 2.5 - I took College WAYYY more seriously). Because of my degree and my work history I walked right into Managing 5 union departments (3 of them were skilled tradesmen) for a huge food distribution company. My income skyrocketed as did our families benefits (they even paid for some of my kids college education, as well as x4 Orthodonics care :mo money:and the all the other goodies, place was pretty cool - upper/mid management got 1.25 match for every dollar we stuck into our retirement funds - FREE MONEY ). I left there 6 years later and took on a Plant Superintendents position in a UAW shop that was a full op (including foundry) machining company that built Pumps and Pump accessories for the fuel station industry.. Ended up with a huge sign on bonus as well as doubling my income.. All because I had a sheepskin (and a good work ethic that earned me LOTS of experience thru the years). It was because of this job that I was able to aquire the :mo money:to start my bike dealership and walk off into fulfilling my life dream of owning/operating a bike dealership = I LOVE AMERICA, times have truly changed and I wish we could see it back on its feet!! Prayers Up for THAT to happen!!

[leroy]

Cowpuc,

 

Your wife made two good decisions...she got out of teaching and to homeschool. I am sure your children got a way better education at home in less time than they would in the public schools.

 

Our teachers mean well but the system they are trapped in just sucks. Now the younger teachers are products of "the system". They are actually only facilitators. Education has gotten in the way of learning.

 

My mother, God bless her, was way smarter then me even if she did not finish ninth grade (she helped get me through algebra thus starting me on a math career). When I was a young boy in elementary school I remember her saying, "When they control the media and the schools, we are done for." Wow was she smart. The "they" at the time were the communist. Oh, sorry, it still is but with a different name as in statist, or liberal, or progressive.

[XV1100SE]

In one fell swoop :

 

... Their passions tend to have display screens.

 

Many have so much debt they may never be able to own a home much less a $20,000 + ride....

 

I think the market contraction will continue and many, including HD, will cease to exist. I wouldn't be surprised if in ten years Honda and Suzuki are the only mass market brands.

 

In our day (I'm almost 59) there were good paying full time jobs available. Now...although "they" say unemployment is really low, they don't consider people that went from good paying full time manufacturing jobs to part time and/or minimum wage jobs (with no benefits). No wonder so many people can't afford or dream of owning their own homes let alone afford a motorcycle. Funny though how industry moved to countries with cheap labour but their retail prices didn't go down....but profit reports sored

 

It's a simple rule,, America got sold out,, and in more ways then 1..

 

1. The Globalist who have been in charge of the U.S. for decades now, thru trade agreements like NAFTA, have all but given our manufacturing jobs away.

 

3. Public Education: When I was a kid our Public School taught history with pride and truth. We learned about WW2, Civil War, Revolutionary War. We actually said the Pledge of Allegiance and opened with Prayer.. I went thru 4 years of Hard Materials and Auto Shop, and Electronics in my high school years. Being "Blue Collar" back then was actually a thing of pride.

 

4. The stupiding of the U.S. = Open dishonesty in Governing and in Business. It amazes me when I see otherwise intellengent people by into things and except things as fact when the powers that be make certain decisions for them. In other words,, critical thinking skills seem to have gone right out the window.

 

1- Free market economy. Trade agreements aren't necessarily a bad thing. They do stabilize economies. The issue has been that people in government (notice that most are wealthy) listen to "interest groups" or PAC's and let the companies move production to other countries because of the cheap labour. Several years ago production went to Japan, then Taiwan, Mexico, and China. Did they stop Apple from moving production to China? No...because it would hurt "their" bottom line. Who cares that jobs were lost? And as mentioned previously...when manufacturing costs dropped because of off-shore production, did they lower their prices? No, they made cereal boxes smaller, smaller bags of chips....and still raised prices.

 

Man, you are so right on. Especially in the education department, dumbing down of America. I have witnessed it first hand.... Yes, I took college prep courses but had no idea that is what they were. I took practical courses also. When I left high school I could have went into the electrician field with not trouble. I knew how to work with wood. I could make machine drawings or blueprints. I liked science, math, history, and anything with an engine. ....

Today's education system sucks. There is no nice way to put it. ... The state tells them what to teach and that is the state test.... Example in point, all Texas students must take algebra I, geometry, and algebra II. I ask why? Not everyone is a math person. In Texas they gear it all to college. When they graduate they can't scratch their A$$ with both hands.

 

... They do not know "roughing it". How many have ever pushed a lawn mower? Dug a drainage ditch? Helped roof a house? Worked in a garden/field? Hauled hay? Worked at a gas station? ...

I am glad I grew up when I did.

 

2 - Education - Totally agree. When I went to high school you had to have credits in shop classes. I learned woodworking (a hobby now), electicity (I can wire my own house and during inspections have been asked if I'm an electrician), auto mechanics, welding, and can running printing press, process my own films.....

We weren't allowed to use calculators until a certain grade and had to learn cursive writing, doing things in our head and working out answers on paper. Now they use computers from day one, google answers, copy/paste. They don't learn to think on their own. Without a cash register telling them how much change to give they couldn't count it back or figure it out on their own.

In Canada we learned not only about our own history but that of the U.S. and of the world. This was an advantage of the education system here. But ask a kid now the provincial/state/country capitals or where on the map they are....good luck.

 

4 - Ethics - (government, business, and personal). It's everyone for themselves. Handouts, freebies, screw the other person....no sweat equity or putting in a hard days work. Government....like I said... the rich govern and make rules that benefit them. They don't work for the people....but work for "some" of the people. Businesses and special interests giving government bribes and money under the table.

 

... If we had the jobs back that were given away to help/support the globalist/socialist agenda and were vibrant and strong economically by the American worker being revived to a level that we were during and right after WW2 and up till when the Globalist took power, I think things could/would correct fairly quickly. Take away the give me it for "free" programs once the demand for a work force is re-established and the folks working two jobs for peanuts or living off the taxpayer have REAL jobs that pay REAL livable wages (it's called Capitalism,, completely the opposite of Socialism) it would be amazing how fast the demand for luxury items (like bikes) would sky rocket. .

 

One thing I forgot to mention, do you see kids riding bicycles? Hell, I rode mine all over and it was only one speed.

Also, when I graduated from high school, as you related to, there were places a guy could go to work, learn a trade, and get a good paying job. ....

 

The education system now is set up to prepare students for white collar ("computers are the future") jobs and yet the blue collar jobs no one is trained for or wants. Bring back shop classes so people learn to work with their hands and with their brains. Take computers out of the junior grades. Oh wait....can't do that....those that can't have a computer at home are "disadvantaged" and we have to have them in school to level the experience level.

 

I went to University (B.A. in Political Science and Economics) and College (computer programming). I'm glad I did it in this order because University taught me to think on my own, form my own opinions, write essays and convey my thoughts. College was practical (although some instructors were reading out of the book and didn't know the subject matter). They steer people towards education that there are no jobs for (secretarial).

 

Not everyone can become a rocket scientist. Give those that are better with their hands experience in school so they can identify what they want to do in life. Nothing wrong with digging ditches for a life or learning to frame a house. Where would we be without people that can build things. We just need the manufacturing jobs back.

 

Comment on foreign investment though. GM (who received government bailouts) are closing plants. Honda, Toyota are expanding and pay decent wages, good working conditions, benefits. Don't knock foreign owned companies that actually build product here.

 

One final comment....I have tools that I bought 30 years ago that were "Made in Canada" or "Made in the USA" and they lasted a long time. Some I've gone to replace with even the same brand name are "Made in China" and last a couple years as apposed to a couple decades. It is the big companies cheaping out not only on labour costs but in materials and design. Even local souveniers are "Made in China". I have a Black and Decker circular saw that was my fathers that he bought in 1965 and it still works, is solidly built. Today's models are light, cheaply made, and don't last.

[cowpuc]

In one fell swoop :

 

 

 

In our day (I'm almost 59) there were good paying full time jobs available. Now...although "they" say unemployment is really low, they don't consider people that went from good paying full time manufacturing jobs to part time and/or minimum wage jobs (with no benefits). No wonder so many people can't afford or dream of owning their own homes let alone afford a motorcycle. Funny though how industry moved to countries with cheap labour but their retail prices didn't go down....but profit reports sored

 

 

 

1- Free market economy. Trade agreements aren't necessarily a bad thing. They do stabilize economies. The issue has been that people in government (notice that most are wealthy) listen to "interest groups" or PAC's and let the companies move production to other countries because of the cheap labour. Several years ago production went to Japan, then Taiwan, Mexico, and China. Did they stop Apple from moving production to China? No...because it would hurt "their" bottom line. Who cares that jobs were lost? And as mentioned previously...when manufacturing costs dropped because of off-shore production, did they lower their prices? No, they made cereal boxes smaller, smaller bags of chips....and still raised prices.

 

 

 

2 - Education - Totally agree. When I went to high school you had to have credits in shop classes. I learned woodworking (a hobby now), electicity (I can wire my own house and during inspections have been asked if I'm an electrician), auto mechanics, welding, and can running printing press, process my own films.....

We weren't allowed to use calculators until a certain grade and had to learn cursive writing, doing things in our head and working out answers on paper. Now they use computers from day one, google answers, copy/paste. They don't learn to think on their own. Without a cash register telling them how much change to give they couldn't count it back or figure it out on their own.

In Canada we learned not only about our own history but that of the U.S. and of the world. This was an advantage of the education system here. But ask a kid now the provincial/state/country capitals or where on the map they are....good luck.

 

4 - Ethics - (government, business, and personal). It's everyone for themselves. Handouts, freebies, screw the other person....no sweat equity or putting in a hard days work. Government....like I said... the rich govern and make rules that benefit them. They don't work for the people....but work for "some" of the people. Businesses and special interests giving government bribes and money under the table.

 

 

 

 

 

The education system now is set up to prepare students for white collar ("computers are the future") jobs and yet the blue collar jobs no one is trained for or wants. Bring back shop classes so people learn to work with their hands and with their brains. Take computers out of the junior grades. Oh wait....can't do that....those that can't have a computer at home are "disadvantaged" and we have to have them in school to level the experience level.

 

I went to University (B.A. in Political Science and Economics) and College (computer programming). I'm glad I did it in this order because University taught me to think on my own, form my own opinions, write essays and convey my thoughts. College was practical (although some instructors were reading out of the book and didn't know the subject matter). They steer people towards education that there are no jobs for (secretarial).

 

Not everyone can become a rocket scientist. Give those that are better with their hands experience in school so they can identify what they want to do in life. Nothing wrong with digging ditches for a life or learning to frame a house. Where would we be without people that can build things. We just need the manufacturing jobs back.

 

Comment on foreign investment though. GM (who received government bailouts) are closing plants. Honda, Toyota are expanding and pay decent wages, good working conditions, benefits. Don't knock foreign owned companies that actually build product here.

 

One final comment....I have tools that I bought 30 years ago that were "Made in Canada" or "Made in the USA" and they lasted a long time. Some I've gone to replace with even the same brand name are "Made in China" and last a couple years as apposed to a couple decades. It is the big companies cheaping out not only on labour costs but in materials and design. Even local souveniers are "Made in China". I have a Black and Decker circular saw that was my fathers that he bought in 1965 and it still works, is solidly built. Today's models are light, cheaply made, and don't last.

 

Early winter was particularly hard one year for my shop so I went looking for supplemental income and excitement (actually, I was bored, lots of folks dont know this about me but I am kinda high strung and setting around in an office with nothing really going on makes me skitterish ) and I noticed that a local school had a "Needed, Substitute Teachers" sign out front. Upon inquiry I found out that I didn't have to have a degree in Education to Sub, any 4 year degree would get ya in.. I passed the background check and went to work teaching in an abandoned (the teacher was off on Maternity Leave) 4th Grade class. WHAT A HOOT!!

The only issue I had at all came about due to the current Federal Regs governing the whole classroom computer time that kids are required to have. Short version, the story went like this:

The back of the classroom was closed off with blackboards on wheels in an effort to create a Computer Lab for the class. Each student was suppose to get 20 minutes minimal on the keyboard per day. I was sitting on the teachers desk opening an English book when the cutest little 4th grade girl with pony tails you ever did see :680:came bouncing up to my desk and said: Teacher,, Billy (not a real name) is back there looking at dirty pictures on the computer :yikes:.. I said,, what did you say? She repeated herself as I was putting my Book down and heading that way.. When I rounded the corner of the black boards I caught just a quick glimpse of what "Billy" was looking at just before he clicked on another website as though he had been there before. I walked over, asked what he was doing. He calmly said he was "working on his computer project". I calmly said,, sure,, as I was reaching for switch on the UPS that the computers were plugged into.. The announcement that I made to the class as I was rolling the blackboards up against the wall that there would be no more computer time while I was their teacher caused no small stir. A couple of the more nervous types made sure that I knew that I couldn't do that, to which I calmly proclaimed ownership of the class and their well being for as long as I was teaching and we all went back to studying English.

About an hour after the computer incident, I voice came from behind me asking me to send one of the children to the office for something. It took a minute for me to realize that the voice was coming from an intercom system that remained on during school hours.. Speaking to the speaker on the wall I said I would send the child down to the office right away. As the student was leaving the room it dawned on me that someone had been listening in on the whole episode about the computer .. Figured I was out the door for sure:buttkick:. I thought wrong..

About a month later, during my last day teaching, the Principle approached me, shook my hand and said: I just want you to know that YOU have a job here ANYTIME you want one!! I REALLY appreciate having a "Man Teacher" in these lower grades and the kids REALLY responded well to you, GOOD JOB!! He also mentioned the Computer ordeal and let me know that, while his full time faculty could never have gotten away with what I did (Regs), because I was a Sub, I fell under a totally different set of rules and he was VERY PROUD of me for handling the entire situation like I did!

I went away from that once in a lifetime opportunity to access the Public School system as a teacher like I did with a real internal feel of fulfillment = VERY REWARDING!! Part of me though left there feeling sorry for those kids that are not getting what they really need from on Educational System that - above all else - is suppose to be protecting and guiding them toward becoming good people. I also felt sorry for the administrators and faculty who's hand's were obviously tied in deciding what could and could not be done in administrating/teaching for that hopeful outcome.. What a mess

Prayers Up for for this land of the free

[cowpuc]

Cowpuc,

 

Your wife made two good decisions...she got out of teaching and to homeschool. I am sure your children got a way better education at home in less time than they would in the public schools.

 

Our teachers mean well but the system they are trapped in just sucks. Now the younger teachers are products of "the system". They are actually only facilitators. Education has gotten in the way of learning.

 

My mother, God bless her, was way smarter then me even if she did not finish ninth grade (she helped get me through algebra thus starting me on a math career). When I was a young boy in elementary school I remember her saying, "When they control the media and the schools, we are done for." Wow was she smart. The "they" at the time were the communist. Oh, sorry, it still is but with a different name as in statist, or liberal, or progressive.

 

INDEED MY FRIEND!! Even though those were some rough years as Home Schooling was not something that was welcomed back in those days (we were Home Schoolers back at the beginning before even the "legal" side of it was questionable) we both felt it was the best thing we could do.

Because of my wife and her dedication and seriousness about her role as a Mom/Teacher, out of it we ended up with some VERY good and successful adult children. Our oldest daughter completed her Masters work in Education down in South Carolina and has been teaching in California now for many years (her and her husband also just gave us another Grandson too :banana:). Our second born graduated top of the class in the history of GVSU's Chemistry department in her pre-med and went on to get accepted at Cornell Medical School and has been a Doctor now at a big hospital in Sacramento California for years. Killing Cancer is her life goal. My son, our third born is a Business Manager in Micro Brewering and loving his work - he LOVES dealing with people (the apple dont fall far from the tree). Our youngest daughter ended up falling in love with helping the deaf and sought a 4 year degree in ASL (Sign Language) which she earned. Her involvement with that line of work in both Education and the Ministry landed her in the arms of a fine man who she married and the two of them gave us our very first (I am tearing up) Grandson who we JUST celebrated the 2nd birthday of.. GOOD NITE LIFE IS GRAND!!

If Tip and I had it all to do allllll over again,, we would sooner move to some island in the middle of nowhere and raise our kids if we had to before we would change anything.

[Du-Rron]

Oh heck yea Leroy,, bicycling and even modding bikes was a way of life growing up as a kid in the mid 60's. We had no money (there were a couple rich kids in the area that had the luxury of owning something like a Schwinn factory Stingray with those really cool racing slicks on the back and even one who later got a Krate bike called an Orange Peel or something like that (us actual gear heads were already fooling with Mini Bikes by that time but my..

 

 

Jumping in here with unrelated stuff BUT, those were the two COOLEST things on two wheels, the Schwinn Pea Picker and the Schwinn Orange Krate.

 

 

I had a green Schwinn Varsity.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/varsity-shaddox.html

[djh3]

Dont remember the Pea Picker. But I had one of these.

[CaseyJ955]

Dont remember the Pea Picker. But I had one of these.

https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/wpimages/images/images1/1/0511/27/1_3b1776cf68a1ee25ea6cdfa153783a9b.jpg

 

Love that, had a Schwinn like that, complete with banana seat, sissy bar and shifter mounted between the knees. Mine did not have that cool wheel though.

 

It's interesting to see all the valid points about how many of our great grandkids will not likely be avid motorcyclists. It really bums me out but change is constant I suppose. I've considered getting off the bikes just because of how terribly dangerous and distracted motorists have become. I just cant do it though.

 

At age 14 (1983-ish) my parents and I were doing asphalt shakes on a local detectives home, he had a badly faded and weather checked 72 CB350, stored obviously outside forever. It was leaned against the shed with the kickstand proudly waving in the breeze. Of course I climb down and ask about it, he fired it up with a few kicks and said "brakes here and here, throttle here, clutch here, cyaa in a bit." He later said he would throw it into the roofing deal but parents said "no ****ing way buddy!" I did not seek permission, in fact I was in a hurry to test it out before they noticed what was going on. I cajoled, I threatened to stop going to school and experiment with drugs, and get someone/s pregnant, and run away. I pulled out all the stops, I had never wanted anything so badly, it dominated all my waking thoughts, and many of my sleeping ones too. See, I might have put me through a wall for the behavior I was exhibiting, lawd knows I'da had it coming.

 

Eventually they relented and I got the bike. At age 14.5 in SD one could get a learners permit, and a full license at 16 IIRC. But with a bike you did not have to have licensed driver with you as with a car, you did have to ride solo and daylight hours only. FREEDOM! Not HD advertising campaign freedom, real freedom! It's been a burning passion ever since, even still I ride knowing well the increasing dangers other motorists pose.

 

I guess there is no way to describe that "first ride", there is no learning or teaching the state of mind. It's either present or not. I never tried to tell my kids, I have actively dissuaded them from getting into bikes even though they grew up seeing me ride daily. My son wanted to buy a cruiser and he was already an adult. He's past it for now I think. My daughter wants to buy a Bolt or Scout now. She has a friend with a bike, now it might be hard for me to stop it. Shes just like me, she will do what she wants and make no excuses about it. I obviously understand but I'm super not happy about it. I guess even as an avid motorcyclist myself, I'm part of the dynamic in some small way. Riding has become infinitely more dangerous since my first time out, if someone is not already hooked then the risk is just far to great IMHO.

 

I do agree with the above posts, it's not about the risk or danger. It's just too difficult to text and be glued to a screen if your on a bike. I think that may be one of the main factors right up there with some younger folks not interested in motoring at all. I do suspect motorcycling will make a small comeback when petrol becomes cost prohibitive in the coming years, but it wont be the same.

[djh3]

I would say if she is sure she want to ride. I think I would rather her/them go to a MSF course and get some tools. Unlike when I started, and as you mentioned way more peeps on the road now. Most states require a rider safety course to get your licence anyways. But if you can get them to a course first IMOP they may find out it aint as ez as pops makes it look. Or they will be infected for life. Heads or tails. LOL

[Patch]

XV11 is right about trade. We have to have trade agreements to level the field. Do they work? Well they could work better and be more linear.

 

When I started my family I stopped riding, and get this, I GAVE away my 68 RT and 71 rag top Challenger with only 18K on it and, my complete racing gear and engines! For me there was no occasional dipping in so, I decided to cut it all loose, after all I committed to family first.

 

It took 17ish years before I decided to come back to it. In that time the sport had changed. The sport has and will continue to cycle thru ups and downs just like men's suits.

 

I get you Puc and your frustration but wars will not effect boom days anymore. Post WII lasted and lasted and the spin offs were immense; its gone and not coming back. Also gone is the pace of youth, play hard learn math and sciences you will need it because the country and industries need you! Many followed heed and achieved. Those that did so and made it big, stopped supporting the ideology of country and people first. They made their money road thu the hard times off the taxpayers back with the help and promises from elected leadership tongue oiling us that it was necessary and in our best interest.

 

Look across the pond at what the people are saying (if I'm not mistaken Procol Harum has a song about it)

 

We are all FED UP! You all know I am a French Canadian and one thing Canadians know about the French side is that we aren't shy to speak our minds or vote our disgust. I tell you we have weak leadership in our Prime Minister. In our provincial gov here in Alberta we have a one woman party and, by the time she showed up to the dance all the smart money left,,, because of the promises both made if elected!

 

This may come as news to some but Albertan's did not invent the Tar Sands. We did not put the Coal under our feet. These were good paying jobs and produced revenue that the whole country shared in. Could we have not taken the attitude of producing +/- zero emotions and build a new industry? Some freaking burned out rock star shows up in his oil burner, takes a quick look around and pisses allover a thriving industry. completely void of common sense. Some movie star shows up and states he experience global warming first hand, simpleton; blaming Albertan's for the air currents over the Rocky's; wasn't us that put the Pacific pond in!

 

We have become Nations of runners, we can't muster the fortitude of our founding fathers to to take on the challenges before us. We need educated leadership to overcome our differences and make trade agreements with like minded nations, cut the others out as they cut us. We need to bring back the old school salesmen that found reason, understood that he had to make a deal to keep the factories humming! Yes we need critical thinkers with and without degrees to lead the men & women on their way!

 

Don't know where capitalism went wrong but its time to stop picking the meet off our bones.

 

Just a subdued Canadian opinion

 

PS. thank you for the lead Puc just what I need to do, shake out a few more grey cells

[CaseyJ955]

I would say if she is sure she want to ride. I think I would rather her/them go to a MSF course and get some tools. Unlike when I started, and as you mentioned way more peeps on the road now. Most states require a rider safety course to get your licence anyways. But if you can get them to a course first IMOP they may find out it aint as ez as pops makes it look. Or they will be infected for life. Heads or tails. LOL

 

I was immediately effected and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it, so I sure understand. I think my baby girl is probably going to go forward with it. I'm glad you mentioned the courses, I'm sure she will still see the sense in that. Shes wearing a jacket and full face lid even though we have no adult lid laws. She has been paying attention.

 

SD is pretty good about not engaging in over-legislation. Perhaps they remember what happened last time they did try to put adult helmet laws on the books here haha. I know she will take the course because it's a good idea, thankfully it's not required by law. Putting a law like that on the books would be a bit much IMHO. They do require a rider to show competency on a course before being awarded an endorsement though. I think riders who do take the course get a break in insurance premiums too.

[CaseyJ955]

XV11 is right about trade. We have to have trade agreements to level the field. Do they work? Well they could work better and be more linear.

 

When I started my family I stopped riding, and get this, I GAVE away my 68 RT and 71 rag top Challenger with only 18K on it and, my complete racing gear and engines! For me there was no occasional dipping in so, I decided to cut it all loose, after all I committed to family first.

 

It took 17ish years before I decided to come back to it. In that time the sport had changed. The sport has and will continue to cycle thru ups and downs just like men's suits.

 

I get you Puc and your frustration but wars will not effect boom days anymore. Post WII lasted and lasted and the spin offs were immense; its gone and not coming back. Also gone is the pace of youth, play hard learn math and sciences you will need it because the country and industries need you! Many followed heed and achieved. Those that did so and made it big, stopped supporting the ideology of country and people first. They made their money road thu the hard times off the taxpayers back with the help and promises from elected leadership tongue oiling us that it was necessary and in our best interest.

 

Look across the pond at what the people are saying (if I'm not mistaken Procol Harum has a song about it)

 

We are all FED UP! You all know I am a French Canadian and one thing Canadians know about the French side is that we aren't shy to speak our minds or vote our disgust. I tell you we have weak leadership in our Prime Minister. In our provincial gov here in Alberta we have a one woman party and, by the time she showed up to the dance all the smart money left,,, because of the promises both made if elected!

 

This may come as news to some but Albertan's did not invent the Tar Sands. We did not put the Coal under our feet. These were good paying jobs and produced revenue that the whole country shared in. Could we have not taken the attitude of producing +/- zero emotions and build a new industry? Some freaking burned out rock star shows up in his oil burner, takes a quick look around and pisses allover a thriving industry. completely void of common sense. Some movie star shows up and states he experience global warming first hand, simpleton; blaming Albertan's for the air currents over the Rocky's; wasn't us that put the Pacific pond in!

 

We have become Nations of runners, we can't muster the fortitude of our founding fathers to to take on the challenges before us. We need educated leadership to overcome our differences and make trade agreements with like minded nations, cut the others out as they cut us. We need to bring back the old school salesmen that found reason, understood that he had to make a deal to keep the factories humming! Yes we need critical thinkers with and without degrees to lead the men & women on their way!

 

Don't know where capitalism went wrong but its time to stop picking the meet off our bones.

 

Just a subdued Canadian opinion

 

PS. thank you for the lead Puc just what I need to do, shake out a few more grey cells

 

I think you and I would get along just fine bruddah!

[XV1100SE]

... Some freaking burned out rock star shows up in his oil burner, takes a quick look around and pisses allover a thriving industry. completely void of common sense. Some movie star shows up and states he experience global warming first hand, simpleton; blaming Albertan's for the air currents over the Rocky's; wasn't us that put the Pacific pond in! ...

 

Don't know which movie star you refer to....but I do like most of Neil Young's music. And a Canadian too !

 

Oil isn't going to go away anytime soon. Industry and government is pushing EV's (electric vehicles) but how does the energy get produced to recharge the batteries? And in 7 years when it is time to replace those toxic batteries, how do they dispose of the old ones?

 

One thing recently in the news was that oil companies don't clean up after themselves (don't clean up very well or at all in some cases). There is supposed to be a fund that they pay into for returning the environment to what it was but it is underfunded. In Canada they are or have changed it so that if a company goes bankrupt the first payouts go to the clean-up fund, then investors, etc. This is my issue with the oil companies and open pit mining companies....and fracking companies....they need to be held responsible for cleaning up after themselves, not polluting water sources, harming the natural environment. I've seen an ad done about the oil sands that shows a narrow image of an area that was returned to nature. Zoom out to a bigger picture and you'll see all is not rosy.

 

Neil Young was taking the side of the aboriginals. When streams can be lit on fire, drinking water is polluted, animals dying...something needs to be done. Goes back to holding industry accountable.

[Patch]

I don't disagree with you Don.

The tar sands are complicated and yes it requires open pit mining.

The water issues around the tar sands is also a compacted issue.

The tar sand have been leaching into streams before man so harvesting it is a reasonable approach to tackle the problem.

What we found is that the water consumption used to for the process was not sustainable!

A little more on the subject: I worked for an engineer that after years of trying he finally found a way to solve in part the settlement ponds or at very least a step in the right direction.

The oil sand are and have been too toxic for healthy habitation as far as I know for as far back as history.

Tap water is a fracking issue man made or otherwise.

Yes there are some examples of what the future may hold after the pits are exhausted and perhaps the area will be some day suited to habitation.

Yes here in Alberta we have some very demanding rules for the tar sands. We also have patients with the development because we understand that for all we know today we still have much to learn and there will be improvements willingly or mandated. Those sands belong to us, we maintain ownership, meaning he have influence at the table.

Some years back a minister responsible provided us with an unexceptionable answer to a problem and she was relieved her responsibility by the pressures brought forth by the people.

The stars do not belong to us so arguing against mining a find on one may make perfect sense when and if... But that tar sands are ours to manage and develop but we can't successfully do so without support, investment and leadership.

 

All mining has impact, remember the acid rains from smelters up in Northern Ontario as an example. We are trying to be responsible stewards but that takes growth and time to achieve. Alberta and Saskatchewan trying to be responsible oil producing partners but we are not winning over the moneys working to promote the dark side.

Neil Young later admitted "of course I haven't a clue about what I am talking about..."

 

Cheers

[baylensman]

I personally thinks theres a lot more factors at play in the declining bike market.

 

1. video games. Kids can do flips and wheelies climb walls and even electrocute the guy next to him playing the game. Falling down don't hurt, a fallen bike weighs a ton but a controller weighs several ounces. we've lost 2 generations worth of young people alone. It sad to see, when is was young almost every kid wanted a bike in there teens even girls.

 

2. Our generation has been guilty of being over protective, the occasional "aren't those things dangerous " has lead to a whole generation of parents saying NO to a bike in the teen years as an alternative to a car. Also rising insurance rates and excessive liability issues have made a lot of us reluctant to take the financial risk associated with a teen on a bike. Eventhe old dodge of them having the title inter name and their own insurance isn't sufficient insulation from liability to the parents anymore/

 

3. the motorcycle culture is portrayed either as all gangs or Asian high speed nonsense. The only other time is for comic relief when they show a big guy on a vespa. Bring back CHIPS for gosh sake show people that guys on bikes aren't all lawbreakers.

 

4. All the other previously discussed phone video computer issues also contribute