Flyinfool Posted January 14, 2019 Author #26 Posted January 14, 2019 Well the pipe is nice and clean now. The hydro blaster cleared out what 5 hours of snaking could not touch. Follow up with the camera did reveal 2 holes in the pipe. Note the location of the water, the camera just happened to be nearly upside down at this point in the pipeline. This first pic is right smack in the middle of the basement floor. This second pic is right exactly as the pipe is going under the outside foundation. Or if you like sewers, here is the vid of the camera on the way out, The whole vid was to long. Now the good news is that the pipe damage is not severe. Te bad news it is still there and needs to be dealt with. I have sent the camera vid to several places that do repair to start getting quotes, the plumber that did the hydro blasting and the work so far has quoted a trenchless reline at $3500 complete. I asked him what if I brake the concrete and dig the hole and then place the new concrete. He dropped his price to $1800. BUT AT LEAST I CAN FLUSH FREELY AGAIN!!!!!
Marcarl Posted January 14, 2019 #27 Posted January 14, 2019 Getting an original quote of 10 grand sure makes 1800 sound cheap eh? Well at least you can help out and feel right about that, and then your pop-py problems should be good for a while.
BlueSky Posted January 14, 2019 #28 Posted January 14, 2019 Awwh, just pay the guy $3500 and let him do it. Remember all the hard work last time!
Chaharly Posted January 14, 2019 #30 Posted January 14, 2019 Here's an option... That's some pretty interesting tech
Flyinfool Posted January 14, 2019 Author #31 Posted January 14, 2019 That is interesting. But still looks expensive. I tried to find an installer and the nearest one is about 100 miles away. I may give them a call anyhow just for the fun of it.
Flyinfool Posted January 22, 2019 Author #33 Posted January 22, 2019 Well all of the quotes are now in. All of the "trenchless" methods run from $9800 to $13,500. They all still require a hole to be dug in the basement floor. The one low bid that I had was from the original plumber that cleared the line and did the camera work. His plan was the same as mine, to push 4" PVC down thru the 6" clay line. He did not think that the 2 small bends would be a problem. His quote was the one for 3500 complete or 1800 if I do the hard part. The angle of the bends is about 10° and there is 12 feet between the bends. According to my math, a 4.215 dia pipe going into a 6" dia pipe will need to bend at about a 40 foot radius to get around that bend. I went and bought a 10 footer of the D2729 sewer pipe to play with and that comes out to the 10 foot length being able to be deflected 4 inches at the center. I was able to deflect it that far repeatedly with no damage. I also found that a hair drier blowing down the pipe heating it to about 120°F also made that small deflection much easier. I am back to leaning toward me just doing everything for an all in price of around $1000, This would include me getting some new toys like a small rotary demolition hammer, and a real drain camera and a new 5 foot farm jack. OK so most of that price will be new tools..... I get to keep the new toys (I mean tools) after the job is done. I do have another job in progress that the Rotory hammer will be VERY handy for. I would be digging a 12 foot x 2 foot by 2 foot hole in the basement floor and using the 10 foot sections of pipe instead of cutting it into 5 foot sections. If the pushing gets hard I will also get a 5 foot long farm jack to supply more push power. The weight of the pipe will only be about 50 lbs and the last section will not even need to go into the old clay. I have already started to make some special tools for this job. First is a disk that will fit into the end of the pipe to give me a solid surface to push evenly on and spread the force evenly over the end of the pipe. It will also have a hole in it to feed the camera thru so that I can see the end of the pipe as it goes. This will allow me to stop at exactly the correct spot where my lateral joins the city sewer. I do want to line all the way to the very end of the lateral but I do not want to stick out into the city sewer at all and possibly cause a blockage there. Second will be a U shaped piece to hold hold against the flared part of the pipe to prevent it from pushing into the clay pipe while I am gluing and pushing on the next piece of pipe. If the joint slide in before I am ready I will not be able to tell if I have the joint fully engaged. I have not decide yet on my course of action, But like I said I am leaning to me doing it all. IF I hire it out it will be the $3500 deal with the pro doing everything. The hard part is the digging part. If I feel that my health will hold out for that long then I can dive right in, But my health issues are the one unpredictable part right now. I hate to get half way and be unable to finish. Geeze, everyone has always called me a heartless old bas...... How can that nonexistent li'l thing be causing me so much problems right now? It is still an option that a pile of PIZZA, Ice Cream, and some cold drinks, and maybe even a batch of RUM BALLS (for desert after the work), will make short work of digging the hole.
Sylvester Posted January 22, 2019 #34 Posted January 22, 2019 Well all of the quotes are now in. All of the "trenchless" methods run from $9800 to $13,500. They all still require a hole to be dug in the basement floor. The one low bid that I had was from the original plumber that cleared the line and did the camera work. His plan was the same as mine, to push 4" PVC down thru the 6" clay line. He did not think that the 2 small bends would be a problem. His quote was the one for 3500 complete or 1800 if I do the hard part. The angle of the bends is about 10° and there is 12 feet between the bends. According to my math, a 4.215 dia pipe going into a 6" dia pipe will need to bend at about a 40 foot radius to get around that bend. I went and bought a 10 footer of the D2729 sewer pipe to play with and that comes out to the 10 foot length being able to be deflected 4 inches at the center. I was able to deflect it that far repeatedly with no damage. I also found that a hair drier blowing down the pipe heating it to about 120°F also made that small deflection much easier. I am back to leaning toward me just doing everything for an all in price of around $1000, This would include me getting some new toys like a small rotary demolition hammer, and a real drain camera and a new 5 foot farm jack. OK so most of that price will be new tools..... I get to keep the new toys (I mean tools) after the job is done. I do have another job in progress that the Rotory hammer will be VERY handy for. I would be digging a 12 foot x 2 foot by 2 foot hole in the basement floor and using the 10 foot sections of pipe instead of cutting it into 5 foot sections. If the pushing gets hard I will also get a 5 foot long farm jack to supply more push power. The weight of the pipe will only be about 50 lbs and the last section will not even need to go into the old clay. I have already started to make some special tools for this job. First is a disk that will fit into the end of the pipe to give me a solid surface to push evenly on and spread the force evenly over the end of the pipe. It will also have a hole in it to feed the camera thru so that I can see the end of the pipe as it goes. This will allow me to stop at exactly the correct spot where my lateral joins the city sewer. I do want to line all the way to the very end of the lateral but I do not want to stick out into the city sewer at all and possibly cause a blockage there. Second will be a U shaped piece to hold hold against the flared part of the pipe to prevent it from pushing into the clay pipe while I am gluing and pushing on the next piece of pipe. If the joint slide in before I am ready I will not be able to tell if I have the joint fully engaged. I have not decide yet on my course of action, But like I said I am leaning to me doing it all. IF I hire it out it will be the $3500 deal with the pro doing everything. The hard part is the digging part. If I feel that my health will hold out for that long then I can dive right in, But my health issues are the one unpredictable part right now. I hate to get half way and be unable to finish. Geeze, everyone has always called me a heartless old bas...... How can that nonexistent li'l thing be causing me so much problems right now? https://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=115359 It is still an option that a pile of PIZZA, Ice Cream, and some cold drinks, and maybe even a batch of RUM BALLS (for desert after the work), will make short work of digging the hole. I have a rotary hammer drill with attachments. Be glad to loan it to you IF you don't send snow this far south again this year. Kind of heavy with all the tools. Maybe cheaper to get what you need rather than pay freight.
WildBill1 Posted January 23, 2019 #35 Posted January 23, 2019 Now that your in those "Golden Years ", they refer too.... Ask yourself this question. Is it really worth rolling the dice too save $2500? Digging is tough on the ticker.
BlueSky Posted January 23, 2019 #36 Posted January 23, 2019 Seems to me I remember you saying when you finished the last repair that you would pay a professional next time........
Flyinfool Posted January 24, 2019 Author #37 Posted January 24, 2019 Well I thought so to until it came time to write the check. I am to cheap to pay that much for something i might be able to do myself.
Marcarl Posted January 24, 2019 #38 Posted January 24, 2019 I would consider how the joints would transfer around the bends, or would they be just stiff enough to put a damper on the negotiation. I also agree with Blue Sky. I have no idea what financial shape you are in, but most of us save up for retirement so that we don't have to work until death due us part. Maybe a good idea to use some of that, rather than to keep saving it for the time of when your gone. Not an easy decision, I know, I'm Dutch.
SpencerPJ Posted January 24, 2019 #39 Posted January 24, 2019 i might be able to do myself. No disrespect, but even you question if you should be doing that much labor. If you trash your back, think of life going forward.. Maybe, at least, hire someone off Facebook or Craigslist, or whatever in your local area, to do that hard labor. Does not need to be at a Plumbers Rate, hire someone at local Labor Rate.
Flyinfool Posted January 24, 2019 Author #40 Posted January 24, 2019 I am not worried about injuring myself, I am more that strong enough to handle the job. The only part that has me worried is the stamina part. With my current heart condition I do not have near the stamina that I had even 1 year ago. The digging and hauling the dirt and concrete out of the house and to the dump is the only hard part. IF I can do it right so that I can spread the digging and hauling out over a couple hours at a time, over several days, it will be fine. My key right now is to keep my heart rate under 100. If I can do that I can work safely all day. This just means taking a lot of rest brakes. My watch monitors my heart rate and warns me when I am getting close. I have learned that when the watch says take a break, DON'T ARGUE. This would assume that I can do all of the digging without breaking the clay pipe until I am ready to. This way the plumbing remains usable. Once the clay breaks then it will all need to be finished to a point that it is at least usable that day. If I should break the pipe while digging, I do not have to haul the dirt out right away, I can just leave a big pile in the basement for later, and just repair the pipe. Right now I am still not sure how I will proceed. OK so I am doing a lot of thinking out loud again here.
WildBill1 Posted January 25, 2019 #41 Posted January 25, 2019 A lot times thinking prevents going off half-cocked. Pretty iffy situation you got there with that Tera cotta pipe to deal with.
Sylvester Posted February 5, 2019 #42 Posted February 5, 2019 Sooo what's the latest? Have much interest in your project.
Flyinfool Posted February 6, 2019 Author #43 Posted February 6, 2019 I am at the moment leaning toward doing it myself. If I can suddenly come up with the funds, I'll let someone else do it. I do have some suc......... Volunteers to help me with the digging.
mabeline Posted February 6, 2019 #44 Posted February 6, 2019 I don't about you, but for me it would hauling the dirt up the stairs in pails that would kill me! Do you have a window that you run a conveyer belt down into the basement, and either into a truck or even a skid steer to dump into the truck?! I had a friend buy a hundred year old house with really low ceilings. Him and his boy dug the basement down 8-10". ( about 700 square ft) and made piles so the dirt was all loose. He had me come over with my hydro-vac, I stuck the suction tube down through the window to the floor. If I remember right I think the three of us had all the dirt sucked out in about three hrs, and that was going to dump once in between. The reason I mentioned the conveyer first is it's a bunch cheaper!
cowpuc Posted February 6, 2019 #45 Posted February 6, 2019 Hey Jeff, didnt I read that the Gas Company was working above the area you are now having issues with? Many years ago we had a colvert under our driveway that served the county drain (a creek) system. We had an ice storm similar to what we got going on right now and the power dropped off. Consumers Power had to cross our acreage to get back onto the 5000 acres of State Land to do a BUNCH of work to get clear lines. About 3 months later we got a big slug of rain and we ended up with an artisian well kind of fountain shooting up out of our driveway as the water flowed under the culvert.. After things calmed down, knowning something was obviously wrong, I looked into the culvert and notice a section of it internally had caved in.. I looked into renting the equipment (looked like FUN to me) to dig it up and replace it and, like you, got quotes from a couple contracters. One of them mentioned that something big had to have crushed the culvert.. I mentioned Consumers coming thru with their equipment. The contracter suggested a phone call to the Power Company.. A quick call to them, couple weeks later they showed up with a bunch of high end stuff and about 2 hours later a brand new culvert was installed, they even lined the "creek" with broken concrete (NICE) and reseeded the area.. PLUS,, I got a HUGE thank you from them for being patient with them in fixing it..
Flyinfool Posted February 6, 2019 Author #46 Posted February 6, 2019 @cowpuc Once we were able to get the drain camera down there with the sonde we were able to pin point the location of the break. It is exactly under my basement wall, which is about 6-7 feet from where the gas co was digging. My plumber pointed out that the gas co has a whole legal team that does nothing but fight claims of them breaking underground stuff. He personally had one case where the gas co fought it even though the gas line went right thru the center of the pipe, easily visible in the sewer cam pics and pics taken during the repair. The gas co lost that one but the home owner still had to take it to court and fight for it. Mine is far enough away that it would be really hard to prove that this was due to the gas co activities, especially with another break dead center of my basement. At least this I am planning to get a small rotary hammer to help break up the floor, and then I have some other plans for that tool so it will not end up a one time use tool. Exactly which one did you get that worked well for you? @mabeline The math says that this will be about 1 yard of material to haul out of the basement and then 1 yard of new material to haul into the basement. 1 yard of material is equal to ~22 bushels or 40 5 gallon buckets. Of course it is not just the hauling it out of the basement it is also the hauling it off for disposal. I did call a local rental place and to rent a conveyor is $130 per day. In talking to the rental place, the conveyor is more made for outdoor use, as it will be very difficult to get it into a basement. Hhhhmmmmmm..... I do have a big shop vac, I wonder if it would lift the dirt out of the basement and then just have 2 people lift it up to dump in the back of my P/U truck, wash rinse and repeat about 20 times.
Sylvester Posted February 6, 2019 #47 Posted February 6, 2019 cowpuc Once we were able to get the drain camera down there with the sonde we were able to pin point the location of the break. It is exactly under my basement wall, which is about 6-7 feet from where the gas co was digging. My plumber pointed out that the gas co has a whole legal team that does nothing but fight claims of them breaking underground stuff. He personally had one case where the gas co fought it even though the gas line went right thru the center of the pipe, easily visible in the sewer cam pics and pics taken during the repair. The gas co lost that one but the home owner still had to take it to court and fight for it. Mine is far enough away that it would be really hard to prove that this was due to the gas co activities, especially with another break dead center of my basement. At least this I am planning to get a small rotary hammer to help break up the floor, and then I have some other plans for that tool so it will not end up a one time use tool. Exactly which one did you get that worked well for you? mabeline The math says that this will be about 1 yard of material to haul out of the basement and then 1 yard of new material to haul into the basement. 1 yard of material is equal to ~22 bushels or 40 5 gallon buckets. Of course it is not just the hauling it out of the basement it is also the hauling it off for disposal. I did call a local rental place and to rent a conveyor is $130 per day. In talking to the rental place, the conveyor is more made for outdoor use, as it will be very difficult to get it into a basement. Hhhhmmmmmm..... I do have a big shop vac, I wonder if it would lift the dirt out of the basement and then just have 2 people lift it up to dump in the back of my P/U truck, wash rinse and repeat about 20 times. Fool, I have had a Bosch hammer drill for over twenty years and it is indestructable. I use it a couple times a year but earlier I used it weekly. Even the tools have survived.
SpencerPJ Posted February 6, 2019 #48 Posted February 6, 2019 40, 5 gallon buckets. Just concerned... Do you know how heavy 5 gallon buckets of dirt get after 10 trips? VERY HEAVY Think about 40 trips. Make 40 trips without a bucket of dirt.... Break that in 1/2, do you know how heavy and strong your shoulder muscles and calves will be after carrying 80 buckets of dirt out of a basement I know you have some friends coming, make sure you have lots of beer and pizza. I still wish you would look into hiring a labor worker, tell them $2 per trip. pay them $50 and still be thankful you saved all that money doing it yourself.
Flyinfool Posted February 7, 2019 Author #49 Posted February 7, 2019 i have a pretty good idea of how heavy they can get. I carried 40 feet of brick chimney out of the house in 5 gal buckets.A little over 500 bricks and I could fit 10 in a 5 gal bucket that weighed about 75 lbs EACH. and the last plumbing fiasco last year around this time was around 25 buckets and I did it all by myself, That one I was under the gun as the plumbing was not functional at the time. At least this time IF I can do it right I can spread out the digging over a week or two, AND I have help lined up, yes it will take a lot of pizza and Hawaiian Punch followed up by a steak dinner. I can also spread the hole filling and cement work out over a month. IF all goes as planned the actual plumbing part should only take a half day from breaking the old pipe to being able to flush again. Yup, there are a LOT of IF's in there.
WildBill1 Posted February 8, 2019 #50 Posted February 8, 2019 Best of luck on your quest and pace yourself from start till finish.
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