Hold your breath I'm going in.....AGAIN

[Flyinfool]

Yup It got me again. Once again a section of sewer pipe has caved in. This time it is about 20 feet down stream of the last one. We did manage to get the camera that far down the pipe and there is about a 4 inch dia hole on the roof of the pipe. BUT the chunk of pipe is nowhere to be seen. We think it probably washed farther down the pipe and joined forces with a bigger problem. The actual spot that is blocking the pipe is about another 15 feet down stream from this small roof collapse. we were unable to clear that blockage. we got a hole thru it so that water can at least trickle thru. On Sunday the plumber is coming back to hydro blast it to get the blockage gone. He is sure that this will move the blockage out of the pipe and into the city sewer. He can then get his camera down there to see what is really going on, so we can make a plan of action. The part that has me the most worried is that the actual blockage seems to be right under where the gas co just installed a 4 inch natural gas main last fall. I do NOT want to be digging past a gas main.

 

IF it is just the cave in AND the hydro blasting can clear it out. My initial plan (this was also the plumbers first thought for a plan) is since the pipe is a 6 inch ID and a house only needs a 4 inch line (4 inch is what has been used in nearly all houses for a long time already) is to simply push 4 inch PVC pipes down the existing line all the way to the city sewer line in the middle of the street, and then just connect it to the 4 inch line that ran down the first half of the system last time I went thru this. This should make the sewer line to where it will outlive me. After that I won't care.

 

To do this will require me to dig a hole in the basement floor that will be about 2 feet wide by 6 or 7 feet long and about 2 feet deep. I can then cut the PVC into 5 foot lengths to shove down the line. I am thinking that once I break into the pipe I can have this done in a day. Famous last words, "How long can it take to glue together 12, 5 foot long sections of PVC and shove it on down the hole?" I am guestimating the actual distance at this point, I will of course get real measurements before I start.

 

The real "fun" and $$$$ start after the camera work on Sunday. I got my fingers crossed that it is something that I can do for $300 bux vs a couple 3-5 thou for the pro to have to do.

[uncledj]

If you're going to end up gluing 5' pieces and pushing them through, I'd strongly suggest using pressure couplings instead of DWV couplings. The pressure couplings will be longer and stronger and will withstand more abuse as you finagle the piping through the existing 6".

[RDawson]

🤞🤞🤞hoping there are no elbows or bends in that old pipe.

[Flyinfool]

I know that there are no elbows, there could be a slight curvature that does not show up on the camera.

Will know more by Sunday afternoon when it either determined that it is a catastrophic failure that requires professional excavation, or a slip fit repair.

[Kretz]

Just a thought & maybe more expense than you want Jeff but I've seen companies around here that run new lines inside the existing lines with little digging. Not sure exactly how it all works but it may be worth investigating. There may be similar companies near you?

Good luck with the project, never pleasant to deal with sewers.

Here's a link that may be useful:

https://www.trenchless-pipelining.com/repair-drains-under-slab/

[Marcarl]

I can feel your pain. My daughter bought a house and took possession 1st of Dec, it was built in 1933 and never really updated. It was decided to upgrade the basement to be usable so some dirt had to come out, 11 tons worth, all removed by 5 gal pails half full. She then wanted to put a bathroom down there but the sewer goes out 1 foot above the floor, so she dug a pit for a sewer basin, then decided after more family input that there was a better location and so filled in the first one as she dug the second one. She then ran into a super deal on a stackable washer and dryer so now the pit is in a different location again. The pit is 24" wide, 30" deep all in coarse sand and river stone. There was no concrete floor in that section of the basement, so that was a bonus. We is a little weee bit stiff and tired right now.

[BlueSky]

Good luck Jeff! And I was getting poed today trying to fix my dishwasher...

[Flyinfool]

Thought I would add for those that do not remember, this was the first holding of the breath.

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?134913-Hold-your-breath-I-m-going-in

 

I really hate this waiting game, this is the first time in my life that I have HAD to hire to hire a pro. I have hired a pro to things that I just did not want to do but this the first time I could not do it myself.

at this point it is just the diagnostics. When it comes to the actual repair, depending on just what it is I do not know if I am physically still able to dig the hole and push in the pipe, (fighting some health issues) let alone if this would require a more major excavation.

 

 

Hmmmmmm. maybe a pile of PIZZA and Hotdogs and some cold drinks will make the hole magically happen?

[djh3]

I hate to be a fly in the ointment. But is the ID of the old pipe larger than the fittings you have to glue on the joints? There are companies that have like a plastic sleeve they put inside the pipe and inflate it or something and it ends up doing the same thing you are trying to do, line the old pipe. Some cities are doing it with their old sewers etc because they dont want to dig up miles of streets.

[Flyinfool]

I called some of the reliners the last time I had sewer issues. The prices started at around $10,000 and went up from there. Part of the problem with those systems is they still have to dig a hole at each end of the run. So i will still have the same size hole in the same place in the basement, plus they will need a hole at the other end meaning digging up the street, and then having to rebuild the street. The pipe reline is the cheap part of the job, and the part they always refer to. They also claim to be cheaper when you would otherwise be digging a trench possibly across a driveway, patio or other expensive landscaping. In those cases it would be cheaper. If I can do the push the pipe thing myself it will end up costing me around $500. the diagnostics will cost more than the repair. Lots of IFs still in the formula. I will see what the final diagnosis is and what the repair estimate is to decide what to do next. Right now I am just trying to line up some options.

[Marcarl]

Just thinking out loud here. Have you considered using a corrugated plastic pipe, the non-perforated type? I know being smooth on the inside would be desirable, but I would tend to like to think about it anyways if I were you.

[Marcarl]

https://www.agrisupply.com/pipe-corrugated-plastic-drain/c/3200005/

[Marcarl]

https://www.agrisupply.com/pipe-corrugated-plastic-drain/c/3200005/

https://corma.com/applications/advantages-sewage-drainage-pipes/

[Kretz]

I called some of the reliners the last time I had sewer issues. The prices started at around $10,000

 

Sounds very expensive the outfit I linked above reckons around $150 a foot!

[Flyinfool]

Sounds very expensive the outfit I linked above reckons around $150 a foot!

 

That puts it in the 10K ballpark. $150 x 70 feet is $10,500, then there is digging and repairing the basement and adding some more pipe to go around a corner to connect up to the existing pipe, then there is another hole to dig at every branch location.

 

If I can do the push the pipe thru plan it will be $250 worth of pipe and fittings, and another $250 worth of gravel for the back fill and a couple bags of cement to fix the floor. And some sweat from the breaking, digging hauling the dirt out of the basement hauling in the new gravel and mixing and placing the cement. I have a lot more sweat than money. I can also then do it in stages, first is to make the plumbing usable, so that is to dig the hole, cut off the old pipe, push the new pipe, connect to the existing. and at that point I am back to functional. The plumbing does not stop being functional untill I cut the old pipe off. I am hoping that it should mean the pluming is only actually completely down for a day at the worst. It does not matter if it takes me a couple months to refill the hole and fix the floor. If I have to hire it out, it will all be done in a day or two, and I will not break a sweat, but I will pay dearly for that connivance.

 

I was even looking at buying my own drain camera. Any excuse for new toys is a good one. Looking online I am finding them for $350 on up. To rent a camera for 4 hours is $200 plus a $300 deposit. Then I can PM the line every once in a while to look for small issues before they become big issues. It will also give friends a family another option for PM of their systems.

Edited January 10, 2019 by Flyinfool

[Flyinfool]

Looking back I am really talking myself into the idea of the problem being fixable by pushing a pipe and that I can do it myself. I sure hope it does not turn out to have to be plan 2 of hiring the plumber to excavate and to fix the pipe.

[grubsie]

Your thinking so hard that it's making my brain hurt.

 

1st, Why 5ft lengths of 4" PVC? Is that the max length you can use in the area you are working in?

 

2nd, If it was me, I would 1st try feeding 1" pvc just to see if you can get 60 ft of it through. If you can't at least you know where the clog is. Worse come to worse, you would know where to start digging.

The 1" PVC may also be a better option to to poke holes through the clog and loosening it up. Plus, its much easier to cut up the 1" on the way back out and not wasting 4" PVC.

 

3rd, I highly doubt that the 4" PVC will push through whatever is clogging the pipe. Even it it did, the material in the clog could clog the 4" pipe.

 

4th, Once the clog is cleared, you could then run the new 4" pipe as far as it needs to go. 60ft is a long way for sewage in a 4" pipe though.

 

5th, There's always the option of empty drywall buckets until the weather gets better.

 

 

Wish you lots of luck on this adventure.

[gmarshall]

Jeff,

It's possible your sewer pipe was damaged by the gas company when they put in their new pipe. The best thing to do is have the line tv inspected. Be there and see the footage in real time. Don't take someone's word for it.

 

I would also discourage you from trying to fix the problem wit 5 foot sections of pic and glue joints. Every joint is a place for fibrous material to collect, leading to a clog. That's why real sewer pipe (green color) has push together sockets and is installed in one direction only.

I would also think you may need a building permit for this work (each town is different).

 

My 2 cents

 

Retired from 44 years in sewer utilities.

 

Gary

[rbig1]

man o man your luck has to change. I say. not it. some one else can take over. Did they booger it when they dug up street? But the way watch out those buckets collapse. lol hope ya dodge that bill..

[Flyinfool]

Your thinking so hard that it's making my brain hurt.

 

1st, Why 5ft lengths of 4" PVC? Is that the max length you can use in the area you are working in?

 

2nd, If it was me, I would 1st try feeding 1" pvc just to see if you can get 60 ft of it through. If you can't at least you know where the clog is. Worse come to worse, you would know where to start digging.

The 1" PVC may also be a better option to to poke holes through the clog and loosening it up. Plus, its much easier to cut up the 1" on the way back out and not wasting 4" PVC.

 

3rd, I highly doubt that the 4" PVC will push through whatever is clogging the pipe. Even it it did, the material in the clog could clog the 4" pipe.

 

4th, Once the clog is cleared, you could then run the new 4" pipe as far as it needs to go. 60ft is a long way for sewage in a 4" pipe though.

 

5th, There's always the option of empty drywall buckets until the weather gets better.

 

 

Wish you lots of luck on this adventure.

 

1. If I want to use 10 foot sections I have to dig a hole thru the basement floor 12 feet long instead of just 6.

2. 3. and 4. The existing pipe will be hydro blasted to remove the clog and any debris from the pipe collapse to make a clear shot for the new PVC.

5. OH YUCK!!!!

 

Thanks, I need some luck for a change.

 

Jeff,

It's possible your sewer pipe was damaged by the gas company when they put in their new pipe. The best thing to do is have the line tv inspected. Be there and see the footage in real time. Don't take someone's word for it.

 

I would also discourage you from trying to fix the problem wit 5 foot sections of pic and glue joints. Every joint is a place for fibrous material to collect, leading to a clog. That's why real sewer pipe (green color) has push together sockets and is installed in one direction only.

I would also think you may need a building permit for this work (each town is different).

 

My 2 cents

 

Retired from 44 years in sewer utilities.

 

Gary

 

The only reason for 5 foot sections is to have to dig up only half as much floor and avoid having to move a lot of heavy things.

 

It is possible that the gas co damaged the pipe, Once the pipe is hydoblasted so we can get the camera down there to see what is really there we can determine if that is a realistic possibility. Either way I have to get this fixed NOW and deal with trying to collect from the gas co later. The plumber will give me a SD card with the full video from the camera.

 

I am making a tool to cut a smooth radius on the inside of the cut ends of the PVC pipe to make the transitions between sections smoother. Call it a glorified counter sink that will be worn out by the end of this job. I did this on other joints that I did last year (by hand) and the camera showed there is zero collection of derbies in the joints so far after about 1 year of use.

 

The plumber says that since this is a repair and not a replacement, (the original pipe is still there and connected) no permit is required.

 

 

I feel so useless not being able to do anything but sit here on the puter, I have never had any issue before that I could not do myself. In 40 years of home ownership this is the first time I have HAD to call in a pro because I could not get it done. This is why I am hoping that the final diagnosis on Sunday morning is something that I can fix.

[grubsie]

The existing pipe will be hydro blasted to remove the clog and any debris from the pipe collapse to make a clear shot for the new PVC.

 

Ah, so it's actually real. So it's called a "Hydro Blaster" This must be the machine that you use to point all over the US this time of year that cowpuc keeps talking about! So does that mean everybody is safe until you get your problem fixed? At least this Sunday anyway.

[Flyinfool]

Ah, so it's actually real. So it's called a "Hydro Blaster" This must be the machine that you use to point all over the US this time of year that cowpuc keeps talking about! So does that mean everybody is safe until you get your problem fixed? At least this Sunday anyway.

 

Not by a long shot......

I have to tune it up for Sunday. I'll need everything shes got.

[slowrollwv]

Jeff I have a question. You say that the original pipe is 6" and you are trying to go with 4". Is there any reason that you can't go with 3"?

[Flyinfool]

There is already 4 inch for part of the system, It is never good to reduce the size of a sewer pipe, almost guaranteed to clog up at the reducer.

 

I think I just shot down the plan to push a new pipe thru the old pipe. I found 2 spots where the old pipe makes a slight bend. I don't think PVC will bend that far to get past that spot.

To do the push I would now have to dig 3 holes in the basement floor. One at the beginning and one at each of the 2 bends so that I could put in an elbow. Then I have to hope there are no more bends hidden where I can not see them now.

 

This might get real ugly real fast........

[M61A1MECH]

Jeff,

 

This may have been discussed in your first thread on the subject last year, but here is another solution, probably not cheap from the looks of it, but not much digging through concrete.

 

 

A fiend of mine that was the director of a large industrial laundry facility here in Florida hade to have this done at the laundry, no way they could move all the machines to dig out the pipe, so they lined it like the video, he said it worked great and his lost time was minimal.