The tech changes so fast... HID headlight question and Quartz Halogen memory lane..

[Vickersguy]

Back in the day, it was easy to get those cool Quartz Halogen 85/55 watt lamps to really goose up the view at night. It was plug and play. They are no longer made as far as I can tell. So the research started. I've read posts here till I started bleeding from my ears tonight and ended up more confused than ever. Flyingfool has been tireless in promoting his HID conversion. He's convinced me HID is the way to go now but the bulbs he recommends are obsolete. Is there an HID that is plug and play yet or do you have to mount a driver with all HID lamps ? I've pulled two driving/spot lamps and 10 marker lamps (along with about 50# of chrome plated junk) off my '83 to clean it up. The stator plug was about burned up with the power going through it so it was hard wired ala cowpuc's video advice. 10 marker lamps at 5 watts each and two spots which were probably 35 watts each, gives me around 120 watts load off the stator. I could do a 100/55 watt quartz lamp but HID would be kinder to the system. At least I do have the oil cooling modification on the stator. That's probably all that prevented it from burning up. So now, can someone point me at an HID lamp that is correct for the Mk1 headlamp reflector so I get the focused beam ? One with a passive heatsink and a built in driver would be cool ! If it used 50 watts maybe I wouldn't have to jump out all that stuff in the CMS. I've got enough problems already with the "Dim Headlight Hi/Low are the same" issue. Probably the relay or the ground but that trouble shooting process hasn't started yet. Just looking forward to trying an upgrade to the system when I get there...

[uncledj]

I've been upgrading the headlamps on my vehicles, and have found that the LED bulbs aren't so great. They give off a very bright, white light, but it really doesn't project well, and, like you said, there's very little difference between low / hi beam. I tried supposedly brighter LED's with little improvement. The ratings they give the bulbs are really a bunch of promotional BS.

I then went with HID, which are a bit of a PITA to install, but they are as bright as advertised and with a very noticeable difference between low / hi.

The only issue I've had with them are that every once in a while one or the other of the headlights won't light initially....was making me crazy until I realized cycling the lights would resolve the problem. Relay sticking?....ballast issue? Dunno, but it hasn't happened for a few weeks now.

So in my opinion HID is the way to go. I can't say if any manufacturer is better than any other, but all in all I'm happy with the upgrade.

[slowrollwv]

I have had the HID head light for a long time and it went out at MD last year. I put a Silverstar Ultra in to get me home. I thought it was a joke compared to the HID. I was thinking of going to the Daymaker LED but haven't yet. One thing I have found is that on the HID a 35 Watt bi-xenon H-4 6000k is much brighter than the same bulb in 8000k ice blue bulb. No need to go 55W.

[saddlebum]

I too went to a LED head light bulb for a bit but went back to PIAA halogen bulb. My issue was I found that A) although the LED was brighter they did not project as far. B) what they did light up seemed to lack contrast so I found making out road details was somewhat difficult at times.

 

Now having said that I should point out I tried 2 different LED conversion bulbs and was not happy with either. I do think if you are going to run LED it should be a complete engineered LED light assembly were bulb, reflector and lens are all designed to work together as a unit. The Volvo trucks I work on all now have LED light assembly's and they work very well. I also have a set of PIAA LED fog lights that work fantastic and only require a 2 amp fuse but there again this are complete LED designed assembles.

 

HID I have never tried because I have found with units installed on customers trucks, they require optimal battery voltage to initially fire up and often they will come on when the key is initially turned on but die when you crank the engine and then fail to re-light. Now that's not to say that this happens to every brand out there but I could not justify spending the money to find out and so I have been quite content to stick to my PIAA bulb.

Edited January 4, 2019 by saddlebum

[videoarizona]

Technology is interesting for sure when it comes to LED bulbs.

 

I did a ton of research before I chose my LED bulbs. I wanted them to have a great low beam flat spread and have a decent high beam. Found them, bought them and installed one in each scoot. The 89VR lens does limit the light spread but still looks good. But the 05 RSV lens works great with the same bulbs. I got the low beam spread and low beam cutoff and nice high beams. Shame that the bulbs are no longer made. The Broview S5 with passive heat sink. They have new ones with fans....no nothing about them.

 

https://www.amazon.com/BROVIEW-High-Power-Headlight-Conversion/dp/B01FJS9W24/ref=au_as_r?_encoding=UTF8&Make=Yamaha%7C1210&Model=XVZ1300TF%20Royal%20Star%20Venture%7C20648&Year=2005%7C2005&ie=UTF8&n=15684181&newVehicle=1&s=automotive&vehicleId=2&vehicleType=motorcycle#

 

I've always liked HID bulbs, but the starting voltages, as mentioned, can raise havoc with the bulbs.

[Flyinfool]

I am still a fan of HID. I put HID in everything I drive. There is no brighter bulb yet. LED is getting close in brightness for some of the high end bulbs. Anything in LED that is affordable most of the add is lies and misinformation. The biggest issue with LED is that the light emitting elements are way bigger than the filament of the bulbs they are replacing, as many have noticed above this causes poor focus which results in very bright light but not much projection down the road, and due to the non focus there is very little difference between HI and LO beam. Also many of the bright LEDs actually draw more power than the halogens they are replacing.

 

Most LEDs will still need to have a driver installed somewhere. ALL HID will need to have a driver installed. You could hook it up to not have to do all of the CMU jumpering but it is not recommended as the bikes wiring can not handle the startup surge to fire the HID. I have mine hooked up, so that it does not try to light while starting, this prevents the on-off-on at startup that is bad for the HID.

 

If you are after max light down the road you will want a color number of 4500K or 5000K. Lower numbers will give a yellow light like a fog light and higher numbers sacrifice light output for the popular bluer colors.

[Vickersguy]

Thank's for stopping in Jeff. My thought is to install a rocker switch inline with the power supply to the hi/low relay that I can throw after the bike is running. I'm hoping that this will light up the warning lite in the instrument cluster to remind me to turn on the headlight. That said, I'm seeing an enormous differences in HID prices. I am only interested in reliability and I suspect prices and reliability are only loosely related. An HID light is a big investment, in the $50 to $70 range. The top rated Quartz Halogen, the Pillips extreme vision, is around $10, shipping included and it's a drop in. We'll see where the budget takes me going forward. I'd prefer the HID once I figure out which one is the best for longevity. I'm looking for some personal experiences from the crew here, as to how long their lights have lasted and so forth. Perhaps even a make and model # just to help me out here. It's for a Mk1, but I think the setup is the same for Mk2's also.

[baylensman]

Technology is interesting for sure when it comes to LED bulbs.

 

I did a ton of research before I chose my LED bulbs. I wanted them to have a great low beam flat spread and have a decent high beam. Found them, bought them and installed one in each scoot. The 89VR lens does limit the light spread but still looks good. But the 05 RSV lens works great with the same bulbs. I got the low beam spread and low beam cutoff and nice high beams. Shame that the bulbs are no longer made. The Broview S5 with passive heat sink. They have new ones with fans....no nothing about them.

 

https://www.amazon.com/BROVIEW-High-Power-Headlight-Conversion/dp/B01FJS9W24/ref=au_as_r?_encoding=UTF8&Make=Yamaha%7C1210&Model=XVZ1300TF%20Royal%20Star%20Venture%7C20648&Year=2005%7C2005&ie=UTF8&n=15684181&newVehicle=1&s=automotive&vehicleId=2&vehicleType=motorcycle#

 

I've always liked HID bulbs, but the starting voltages, as mentioned, can raise havoc with the bulbs.

 

I too am a fan of these bulbs! True the back scatter is less so the flood effect seems less intense that with a HID or Halogen bulb, but I find that with out that bright puddle of light in front of me everything that aint road stands out rather well. I've heard similar comments from guys that have bikes with factory installed LEDS it just take a little to get used to.

 

That big flat field of yellow/white light looks like its doing a good job but with the less i feel there is such more contrast. Also most auto MFGS and a lot of newer bikes have this lighting stock.

[Flyinfool]

WARNING Technical crap ahead.....

 

An LED that is in a housing designed for the LED will work great. That is what all the new cars and bikes that have LED are. The same goes true the other way, If you could put an halogen into one of these new housings that was designed for LED then the halogen would be way out of focus and perform poorly. You can not make a comparison between a new vehicle that was designed for LED and expect the same results with a vehicle that was designed for halogen and has an LED stuffed into it.

 

A halogen bulb has a fairly small length of wire that is giving off the light and that light is a full spherical output. The reflector and lens are expecting that light to be coming from every angle and a fairly small point in space. A HID bulb is also a fairly small area that is producing light and the light is also a full spherical output to keep the reflector and lens happy. Granted the HID light source is slightly bigger than the filament of the halogen, but not by much. ALL LEDs have a directional light output, they concentrate the light in just one direction and it gets dimmer as you move off center. The LED bulb makers compensate for this by putting multiple LEDs in the same bulb pointed in different directions to try to simulate a spherical light output. the problem is that there is a circuit board and heat sink in between the LEDs spacing then farther from where they are supposed to be for the light to be focused properly.

 

 

 

Tech part is over.

RANT part ahead......

 

I am a bit of a light snob, I really hate lights that are not done correctly, and/or aimed properly. Because not only are you not able to see as well as you should, but you are blinding me and everyone else on the road at the same time so that no one around you can see well either. It is really important to check the aim of your headlights after changing the bulb. In the last 40 years I have yet to replace a headlight and not have to tweak the aim at least a little bit to have it exactly correct.

 

The last set of HID that I bought was for my P/U truck. I bought the Morimoto brand, they are not cheap, and I have been very happy with them. They were very close to being plug and play. The wires I had to find places for was the battery power and a ground for the relays. In my truck I then added a relay that has a 10 second delay so that the HID do not light when the key turns on, then go off for cranking and then try to relight as soon as the engine starts, this on-off-on operation is very hard on the bulbs. These bulbs have held up to all of my off road activities so they should hold up on a bike to. I put the 50W in my truck, you would want to stick with the 35W for a bike. My bike has the 35W.

[videoarizona]

Agreed, Jeff. Most of the LED bulbs I still see for sale are crap. Lots of light...with no beam pattern or cut off for low beam.

 

If they are DOT approved, it's at least a good start....

[grubsie]

I have mine hooked up, so that it does not try to light while starting, this prevents the on-off-on at startup that is bad for the HID.

 

Curious how you did this. Is it a manual thing or is it automatic?

 

My 2009 Road Star headlight doesn't come on until the engine is running. There is a relay for the headlight that connects to ECU. I assume that the ECU connects the circuit once it detects that the engine is running.

Is there any circuit on the RSV that only turns on once the engine is running?

[saddlebum]

An LED that is in a housing designed for the LED will work great. That is what all the new cars and bikes that have LED are. The same goes true the other way, If you could put an halogen into one of these new housings that was designed for LED then the halogen would be way out of focus and perform poorly. You can not make a comparison between a new vehicle that was designed for LED and expect the same results with a vehicle that was designed for halogen and has an LED stuffed into it.

 

A halogen bulb has a fairly small length of wire that is giving off the light and that light is a full spherical output. The reflector and lens are expecting that light to be coming from every angle and a fairly small point in space. A HID bulb is also a fairly small area that is producing light and the light is also a full spherical output to keep the reflector and lens happy. Granted the HID light source is slightly bigger than the filament of the halogen, but not by much. ALL LEDs have a directional light output, they concentrate the light in just one direction and it gets dimmer as you move off center. The LED bulb makers compensate for this by putting multiple LEDs in the same bulb pointed in different directions to try to simulate a spherical light output. the problem is that there is a circuit board and heat sink in between the LEDs spacing then farther from where they are supposed to be for the light to be focused properly.

A prime example of how proper engineering is key, My LED fog lights have only one small LED which actually shines backwards into a specially designed reflector which then casts the light forward giving off excellent lighting. Edited January 4, 2019 by saddlebum

[Flyinfool]

Curious how you did this. Is it a manual thing or is it automatic?

 

My 2009 Road Star headlight doesn't come on until the engine is running. There is a relay for the headlight that connects to ECU. I assume that the ECU connects the circuit once it detects that the engine is running.

Is there any circuit on the RSV that only turns on once the engine is running?

 

As far as I know there is no circuit that is only on once the engine is running, on either the 1st or 2nd gens.

 

There are a number of ways to accomplish this. I wired a standard relay to act as a latching relay, so that once activated it will remain activated until power is removed (shutting off the bike) I have it wired to the brake light circuit so that as soon as either brake is applied the headlight comes on. I can not get very far without using the rear brake since I have to traverse very loose gravel both at home and at work, and this comprises 90% of my riding. For me this makes it totally automatic, eliminates the on-off-on at startup, still lets me start the bike and work on it without turning on the headlight.

 

You could also wire it to the side stand switch so that the light will come on as soon as you raise the side stand. You could hook it to an oil pressure switch so that if there is oil pressure (this should mean the engine is running) the light is on, you could monitor the stator output so that whenever the stator is putting out voltage the light is on, you could monitor the tach wire (sorry 2nd gens, I have a 1st gen) to see if the engine is running. I looked at a number of these options, some I passed on because if the engine should ever quit, like run out of gas or an electrical or mechanical failure, I do not want to suddenly be rolling along at highway speed in total darkness, I did that once when a headlight bulb burnt out at midnight on a dark country road at 70 mph. LOTS of pucker factor.

[grubsie]

There are a number of ways to accomplish this. I wired a standard relay to act as a latching relay, so that once activated it will remain activated until power is removed (shutting off the bike) I have it wired to the brake light circuit so that as soon as either brake is applied the headlight comes on.

 

Brilliant idea. I never would have thought of that. Thanks for the tips. I have my bike torn down right now waiting on the shim kit to arrive from a member here. Would be a good time to tackle the latch relay setup.

 

I do not want to suddenly be rolling along at highway speed in total darkness, I did that once when a headlight bulb burnt out at midnight on a dark country road at 70 mph. LOTS of pucker factor.

 

Pucker factor is an understatement. Scary to say the least. Funny story, but scary.

[slowrollwv]

Jeff that is the very reason I have my driving lights hooked to a different circuit from the head light. OH BTW my 2 gen does have a tach.

[djh3]

Well Jeff enlightened you on the HID thing and how to turn it on with a relay etc. He helped me out with my 2nd gen and gave me a wire diagram with a toggle switch and a blinking LED so I would see the blinking light and turn it on. Worked perfect. On the 2nd gen I had plenty room to mount the electrics. If your 1st gen run the same bulb as the 2nd an H4, they do make a 80/100 bulb that is not hard to find and makes a wale of a difference. I did wire mine up off a relay and a larger power wire so as to no tax the OEM headlight wires. I ran the same system on my Vulcan 900.

 

So now move on to the Victory. It has separate bulbs for high and low. Since it does this I hooked the headlight modulator back up on the high beam. I am running the Sylvania Ultra super whatever bulb. They are H 11 bulbs I think. So on the low beam I wired in HID, to quote a friend WOWZER let there be light. But here is one thing I never thankfully encountered with the RSV. New Years day the wife and I took a ride over to my Brother In-Laws about 80 miles one way. WE left there about 8 pm so was dark. I got to the end of their street and remembered "oh yea the bright is on from daytime" so I flipped it off. Wholy darkness Bat Man !!! Cycled the switch thinking maybe the relay didnt excite, same thing DARK. Dang the low beam HID had burned out. Luckily I have LED driving lights on the crash bars to help, but had to run high beam all the way 80 miles home. Now had that been the RSV I would have been trying to change out the bulb in the driveway to get home.

[cimmer]

The issue with LED replacement bulbs is that they arent designed for the reflectors that are built into the headlight or the fluting on the lenses. Sometimes you need to turn the bulb to match the configuration of the bulb you are pulling out. Check out this site for some ideas on replacement LED bulbs. They arent the cheapest out there but then you usually get what you pay for.

https://headlightrevolution.com/

 

I did switch my 89 over to a LED bulb a few years ago and added a set of PIAA LED fog lights and they work great with a nice light pattern and spread but then again, they are designed for a LED bulb.

Hope this helps some.

 

Rick F.

[Flyinfool]

After my first encounter with a burned out headlight bulb out in the middle of nowhere at midnight, I have always kept a spare bulb on the bike. Since the HID does not alter any of the factory wiring, I kept the halogen H4 that I took out as my spare, It is wrapped in soft stuff and tucked away in the faring. In 40 years I have never had a second episode of "DAM its dark out" with the accompanying pucker factor. At least on a 1st gen all you need is 15 minutes and a screwdriver to go back to the stock halogen H4.

[saddlebum]

This is the PIAA fog light I have.

http://www.piaa.com/store/p/655-LP270-2-75-LED-Fog-Light-Kit-SAE-Compliant.aspx

 

 

It is also available in a driving light version.

http://www.piaa.com/store/p/648-LP270-2-75-LED-Driving-Light-Kit-SAE-Compliant.aspx

Edited January 4, 2019 by saddlebum