Thoughts on buying a brand new, 10 year old bike

[Chaharly]

I needed a special bolt while working on the venture today so I went to the Yamaha Stealership in Sioux City, IA because luckily they had the bolt! While i was in there they had a 2008 Yamaha Warrior sitting there, with no miles, brand spanking new! Now I'm not in the market for a bike, but I thought the price they had on it was outlandish. I understand its new, but they still wanted $10,500, which I believe they were only $12,000 brand new. Wouldn't you figure after sitting that long, not being moved or ridden at all its got a good possibilities of electrical solenoid sticking in something like a fuel injector, or what @cowpuc talks about when he's speaking of dry spots in the motor. I know on an overhead cam bike you can pull the valve covers and inject lube where its needed, but I'm not too sure about the V-Twins.

 

Do you guys think 10,500 seems fair?

[Graywulf]

I needed a special bolt while working on the venture today so I went to the Yamaha Stealership in Sioux City, IA because luckily they had the bolt! While i was in there they had a 2008 Yamaha Warrior sitting there, with no miles, brand spanking new! Now I'm not in the market for a bike, but I thought the price they had on it was outlandish. I understand its new, but they still wanted $10,500, which I believe they were only $12,000 brand new. Wouldn't you figure after sitting that long, not being moved or ridden at all its got a good possibilities of electrical solenoid sticking in something like a fuel injector, or what cowpuc talks about when he's speaking of dry spots in the motor. I know on an overhead cam bike you can pull the valve covers and inject lube where its needed, but I'm not too sure about the V-Twins.

 

Do you guys think 10,500 seems fair?

 

I had the MT-01, hotted up version of that motor. The last one in Australia sold in 2016 and was a 2009. As far as I know {don't go onto the owners group now} it started up and was fine. Guy's mates had Ducati's so it isn't 'pussyfooted' as a ride. It's cheaper than the original price, and I know the MT-01 is starting to gain in value now, too late people realised they are a bloody good bike.

[BlueSky]

I read this review of the bike and it does sound impressive. Their asking price does seem high especially if you don't keep it forever. Because if you bought it and put a few thousand miles on it the value would drop way down.

 

https://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-reviews/yamaha/2008-yamaha-warrior-ar47803.html

[Flyinfool]

I would treat it as a used bike. I am guessing that the title was already transferred to the dealer so it will technically be a used bike because it has been titled. Expect to have to do some work on it. Tires for sure, all fluids, (breaks, clutch, coolant, engine oil, and any other fluids it has) possibly rubber hoses and battery. There are parts that do not die from wear or use, they die from age. Some parts age faster when not used. Those parts are 10 years closer to dying, some are already dead. Zero miles is irrelevant, no different than 5,000 miles or so.

 

I would look up the blue book value for that year with low miles and offer that. They can ask anything they want for it and you can offer anything you want, If they really want it gone they may just accept your offer. If they say NO then say "Fine, I will be back next year when it is another year older and still sitting here and offer you less", turn around and head for the door.

[Chaharly]

I had the MT-01, hotted up version of that motor. The last one in Australia sold in 2016 and was a 2009. As far as I know {don't go onto the owners group now} it started up and was fine. Guy's mates had Ducati's so it isn't 'pussyfooted' as a ride. It's cheaper than the original price, and I know the MT-01 is starting to gain in value now, too late people realised they are a bloody good bike.

 

I don't think I've ever seen an MT-01 before but the bing search brought up a BADASS looking bike! I think the motor on it would be fine sitting from sitting around, but I always wondered about going in with 8k cash and seeing what they'd say. It wasn't their only 10 year old bike sitting there with no miles!

[Chaharly]

I read this review of the bike and it does sound impressive. Their asking price does seem high especially if you don't keep it forever. Because if you bought it and put a few thousand miles on it the value would drop way down.

 

https://www.topspeed.com/motorcycles/motorcycle-reviews/yamaha/2008-yamaha-warrior-ar47803.html

 

 

Yeah they're supposed to be a pretty badass bike and i think its beautiful, and new is always nice. I bet after all those years of sitting on the floor it has boot damage and such from people sitting on it and whiping there hands on all the shiny bits

[Chaharly]

I would treat it as a used bike. I am guessing that the title was already transferred to the dealer so it will technically be a used bike because it has been titled. Expect to have to do some work on it. Tires for sure, all fluids, (breaks, clutch, coolant, engine oil, and any other fluids it has) possibly rubber hoses and battery. There are parts that do not die from wear or use, they die from age. Some parts age faster when not used. Those parts are 10 years closer to dying, some are already dead. Zero miles is irrelevant, no different than 5,000 miles or so.

 

I would look up the blue book value for that year with low miles and offer that. They can ask anything they want for it and you can offer anything you want, If they really want it gone they may just accept your offer. If they say NO then say "Fine, I will be back next year when it is another year older and still sitting here and offer you less", turn around and head for the door.

 

 

I didn't even inquire about the bike. The mechanic was yelling at someone over the phone the whole time, but on the sticker it said the year, model, price, and under miles it said ~NEW!!~, but I'm guessing you're right. It is technically a used bike and probably on its second title. I wonder about the belt on it, being that its belt drive. I've never owned a belt driven bike... does the motor somehow lube the belt, or would age not be a factor.

 

Like I said though, I wish I could just walk in with 8 grand cash and see what they'd do

[cowpuc]

I needed a special bolt while working on the venture today so I went to the Yamaha Stealership in Sioux City, IA because luckily they had the bolt! While i was in there they had a 2008 Yamaha Warrior sitting there, with no miles, brand spanking new! Now I'm not in the market for a bike, but I thought the price they had on it was outlandish. I understand its new, but they still wanted $10,500, which I believe they were only $12,000 brand new. Wouldn't you figure after sitting that long, not being moved or ridden at all its got a good possibilities of electrical solenoid sticking in something like a fuel injector, or what cowpuc talks about when he's speaking of dry spots in the motor. I know on an overhead cam bike you can pull the valve covers and inject lube where its needed, but I'm not too sure about the V-Twins.

 

Do you guys think 10,500 seems fair?

 

Wassup Cha?? See ur talkin bikes,,, I LOVE talkin bikes:178: = thanks for yankin my chain brother:happy34:!! Here in Michigan, Indiana and as far as I know = Ohio still, where I have done a fair amount of new bike wheeling/dealing I know that the new bike dealership receives the bike with a Certificate of Origin and a "title" is not issued until the bike is sold. Once a title is issued, the factory warranty begins and, regardless of whether or not the bike is even ridden - it is now considered a "used" scoot. I have a gut feeling that you will find this applies country wide as I have always been under the idea that the above is a Federal thingy (was in the business for many years and never heard different BUT,, consider the source = me LOL). That said, if the bike is actually NEW as stated, you would get a full 1 year (Yamaha's Warranty at the time?) factory warranty and an "A" title at purchase - pretty cool:beer:.

I think if I were looking at it, as well as finding out whether it was actually NEW, I would also need to know if the bike was ever "prepped". If it is new there is a good chance it has never been prepped and therefore, the engine has not been rolled over or started since it's arrival at the dealership. This is where experience has taught me about the "dry spots" you may be mentioning. Having dealt with numerous abandoned or, as you and I would put it, unloved motorcycles over the years, I have indeed encountered on more than one occasion, bearing surfaces that have dried out from time and - if not prelubed BEFORE any attempt at actual starting = at minimum, rust spots on bearing surfaces cause failure a few thou down the road and at the maximum - instant galling can happen causing an otherwise good journal grind to go into full failure within minutes of start up.

Knowing just a little about the "Roady" motor, I am almost positive they are non-roller/needle bearing big ends on the rods and if so, they are the type of bearing journal surface that would be easily galled if gone dry - as an example of what I am talking about. As you can be assured, there are countless other types of bearings throughout the tranny/engine where any form of rust/pitting having formed on rollers/balls and/or the surfaces they roll on from sitting would definitely not be your friend.

IMHO, 10,500 is wayyyy out there in no mans land for a 10 year old machine that MSRP'd for 12 and, seriously,,, probably why the bike has sat there for 10 years . I would have to really really want the bike and KNOW that I wanted to ride it for a good while to even offer them 8 due to instant depreciation. That 1700 was used in a lot of the Star bikes and I have seen them setting around for sale (used of course) for 2 and under. DEFINITELY 3500 bucks should land a really decent scoot. I was stupid, not feeling well and all that and passed up a 2 year old Raider (113 inch) with under 3k miles on it for 4000 bucks last summer ( GORGEOUS) - they are out there!! Also, new left over bikes are EVERYWHERE, the market has been really soft for a couple years now and they are stacking up!! If you really want to play it safe, IMHO, stay within the 3 or 4 year max range when shopping left overs. Remember that a lot of left overs sit in warehouses stacked up in crates they were shipped in. Most of those dwellings are not climate controlled and temp changes does strange stuff - especially in climates where there is moisture in the air. Consider that not all engines fall to compression or power stroke so the valves land closed when placed in those crates so, at a minimum, some valves are left open so ambient air has access toooo - see where I am going here? Then consider the 4 valve head we are talking about (I am almost sure the Warrior had 4 valve set up like the Strats/Raider/SVTC 113 as shown in my video below). More valves is more fun usually but not necessarily for long term storage..

Getting long winded, sorry bout that,,, it was fun though and GREAT to hear from you!!

 

Your Friend and brother of the wrench - Puc:15_8_211[1]:

 

[Graywulf]

I don't think I've ever seen an MT-01 before but the bing search brought up a BADASS looking bike! I think the motor on it would be fine sitting from sitting around, but I always wondered about going in with 8k cash and seeing what they'd say. It wasn't their only 10 year old bike sitting there with no miles!

 

I've now got a 2005 Roadstar as an everyday bike. They are brilliant motors, I put 80k on the MT-01, what did go {only thing} was the starter/and solenoid resistor. Mind you it's a big motor and 'high compression'. Standard the 01 is about the same as the Patrick Racing tune up on the Warriors. It seems Yamaha in their 'wisdom'? decided the MT-01 wouldn't sell in the USA. There are a couple of Canadian guys who take theirs riding into the US, and everyone asks why the heck the US didn't get them.

[BratmanXj]

I have two buddies with tastefully modified late model warriors and they are great bikes, my opinion was they were the bike H.D. should have built rather than the V-Rod. I've had both bikes on long-term loan and they are fun 2nd bikes, but I don't think I could live with one as my only bike. Modified with an intake, shorty exhaust, tuner and remove the Star badges they are great cruise night bikes yet still reasonably comfortable for a day of riding or throwing around a few curves. They are long bikes with a big 200 out back so don't expect a hard-core canyon carver but it will hustle through the sweepers pretty good. I haven't looked in a few years but the used market for the was really hard pressed and you could pick up a clean, low mileage bike for well under $5k around the Chicago area. I think $10,500 is high, but $8k with a factory warranty if it is new wouldn't be bad.

 

Known issues:

Jack shaft: The trans is a right side output, there is a jack shaft behind the trans that transfers to the left side belt drive. Both these bikes had the trans side sprocket loosen because certain years had to low of a torque specification on the nut. There's a TSB out for the repair, you can also swap out the lower RoadStar gear for a little big more highway legs.

 

Body Panel Fatigue: Big inch twin vibration does take it's tole... The usual lock-tight everything but it's known to crack the metal and plastic body panels over time.

 

Rear Spring Rate: Tends to be soft from the factory, it's a "sportbike" style under-slung coil over shock and springs are easy to swap.

[Graywulf]

I have two buddies with tastefully modified late model warriors and they are great bikes, my opinion was they were the bike H.D. should have built rather than the V-Rod. I've had both bikes on long-term loan and they are fun 2nd bikes, but I don't think I could live with one as my only bike. Modified with an intake, shorty exhaust, tuner and remove the Star badges they are great cruise night bikes yet still reasonably comfortable for a day of riding or throwing around a few curves. They are long bikes with a big 200 out back so don't expect a hard-core canyon carver but it will hustle through the sweepers pretty good. I haven't looked in a few years but the used market for the was really hard pressed and you could pick up a clean, low mileage bike for well under $5k around the Chicago area. I think $10,500 is high, but $8k with a factory warranty if it is new wouldn't be bad.

 

Known issues:

Jack shaft: The trans is a right side output, there is a jack shaft behind the trans that transfers to the left side belt drive. Both these bikes had the trans side sprocket loosen because certain years had to low of a torque specification on the nut. There's a TSB out for the repair, you can also swap out the lower RoadStar gear for a little big more highway legs.

 

Body Panel Fatigue: Big inch twin vibration does take it's tole... The usual lock-tight everything but it's known to crack the metal and plastic body panels over time.

 

Rear Spring Rate: Tends to be soft from the factory, it's a "sportbike" style under-slung coil over shock and springs are easy to swap.

 

Yeh that was a weird one, on the MT-01 they retained the right side drive, but it was a chain drive, no jack shaft. I guess for the belt they had to run it opposite side for enough room? That nut was also an issue on them as was the rear swingarm, it needed beefing up and was recalled on early ones. I would love to have found out if the Warrior ECU is identical to the MT's. There were 3 factory ECU's standard, stage 2 {non road} and stage 3 {racing} Stage 2 which I had changed the ignition curve slightly for better throttle response, richened the mixture, removed the O2 sensor and the Exup valve {yes they fitted that to the MT} and removed the 'horrible 'power bump' at 2750rpm. To get it through the Euro regs, for noise.. Those bazooka silencers were pretty loud for standard... they closed the exup valve which dropped the noise level considerably, but obviously dropped the power output too, but came back on song at 2750. I'd love to see if the MT ECU's could be fitted or the mapping transferred to the Warrior. With the kit you describe {patrick racing kit?} It'd be interesting to se how much more you'd get out of a Warrior... on the MT a stage 2 with gutted mufflers fitted with 2inch perf and wadding, open airbox, K&N and a fuel controller... lifted the top end by a bit over 10mph, acceleration was noticeably improved and torque was as well. Biggest improvement was actually the top gear roll on at 70mph onwards.

[Chaharly]

Wassup Cha?? See ur talkin bikes,,, I LOVE talkin bikes:178: = thanks for yankin my chain brother:happy34:!! Here in Michigan, Indiana and as far as I know = Ohio still, where I have done a fair amount of new bike wheeling/dealing I know that the new bike dealership receives the bike with a Certificate of Origin and a "title" is not issued until the bike is sold. Once a title is issued, the factory warranty begins and, regardless of whether or not the bike is even ridden - it is now considered a "used" scoot. I have a gut feeling that you will find this applies country wide as I have always been under the idea that the above is a Federal thingy (was in the business for many years and never heard different BUT,, consider the source = me LOL). That said, if the bike is actually NEW as stated, you would get a full 1 year (Yamaha's Warranty at the time?) factory warranty and an "A" title at purchase - pretty cool:beer:.

I think if I were looking at it, as well as finding out whether it was actually NEW, I would also need to know if the bike was ever "prepped". If it is new there is a good chance it has never been prepped and therefore, the engine has not been rolled over or started since it's arrival at the dealership. This is where experience has taught me about the "dry spots" you may be mentioning. Having dealt with numerous abandoned or, as you and I would put it, unloved motorcycles over the years, I have indeed encountered on more than one occasion, bearing surfaces that have dried out from time and - if not prelubed BEFORE any attempt at actual starting = at minimum, rust spots on bearing surfaces cause failure a few thou down the road and at the maximum - instant galling can happen causing an otherwise good journal grind to go into full failure within minutes of start up.

Knowing just a little about the "Roady" motor, I am almost positive they are non-roller/needle bearing big ends on the rods and if so, they are the type of bearing journal surface that would be easily galled if gone dry - as an example of what I am talking about. As you can be assured, there are countless other types of bearings throughout the tranny/engine where any form of rust/pitting having formed on rollers/balls and/or the surfaces they roll on from sitting would definitely not be your friend.

IMHO, 10,500 is wayyyy out there in no mans land for a 10 year old machine that MSRP'd for 12 and, seriously,,, probably why the bike has sat there for 10 years . I would have to really really want the bike and KNOW that I wanted to ride it for a good while to even offer them 8 due to instant depreciation. That 1700 was used in a lot of the Star bikes and I have seen them setting around for sale (used of course) for 2 and under. DEFINITELY 3500 bucks should land a really decent scoot. I was stupid, not feeling well and all that and passed up a 2 year old Raider (113 inch) with under 3k miles on it for 4000 bucks last summer ( GORGEOUS) - they are out there!! Also, new left over bikes are EVERYWHERE, the market has been really soft for a couple years now and they are stacking up!! If you really want to play it safe, IMHO, stay within the 3 or 4 year max range when shopping left overs. Remember that a lot of left overs sit in warehouses stacked up in crates they were shipped in. Most of those dwellings are not climate controlled and temp changes does strange stuff - especially in climates where there is moisture in the air. Consider that not all engines fall to compression or power stroke so the valves land closed when placed in those crates so, at a minimum, some valves are left open so ambient air has access toooo - see where I am going here? Then consider the 4 valve head we are talking about (I am almost sure the Warrior had 4 valve set up like the Strats/Raider/SVTC 113 as shown in my video below). More valves is more fun usually but not necessarily for long term storage..

Getting long winded, sorry bout that,,, it was fun though and GREAT to hear from you!!

 

Your Friend and brother of the wrench - Puc:15_8_211[1]:

 

 

 

Boy howdy Its always a pleasure to hear from ya puc! If I was a braver man I'd enquire a little more about those bikes he's got sitting in there, but the way he was talking to that dude on the phone I figured I should wait for another day. Actually though, if that's the way they act when customers are in the building I can see why they're still trying to get 10k for that bike, and besides the price I'm sure the attitudes walked several people out the door. Like you said though puc, you could find the same bike, same year, with 10k miles that's had a thousand miles a year put on it for half that price and you'd be in safer waters I'm sure! Unless you've got experience peeling motors apart, I'd be honestly scared S***less of pulling a brand new motor apart to look for pitting or rust on metal to metal parts. I'm sure that'd really quickly void that Yamaha warrantee. I also wonder what Yamaha would do on a lot of those warrantee claims... doesn't seem like something they'd want to throw a lot of money at?

 

Now if they fire it up twice a year, that could be a different story

[Chaharly]

I've now got a 2005 Roadstar as an everyday bike. They are brilliant motors, I put 80k on the MT-01, what did go {only thing} was the starter/and solenoid resistor. Mind you it's a big motor and 'high compression'. Standard the 01 is about the same as the Patrick Racing tune up on the Warriors. It seems Yamaha in their 'wisdom'? decided the MT-01 wouldn't sell in the USA. There are a couple of Canadian guys who take theirs riding into the US, and everyone asks why the heck the US didn't get them.

 

The thing now is, bikes that look like that MT-01 are jut now hitting the states in Yamaha lineups. I think they thought the cruiser look was a safer bet in the states, when in reality I think that would have sold like hotcakes here!

[Graywulf]

The thing now is, bikes that look like that MT-01 are jut now hitting the states in Yamaha lineups. I think they thought the cruiser look was a safer bet in the states, when in reality I think that would have sold like hotcakes here!

 

As I mentioned the two Canadian guys who 'go south' a lot were always saying how the 'yanks' would complain why they never got the MT-01. The new MT series are a 'budget' bike really.... Two things that killed the 01 were, price, it was a very expensive motorcycle. It was a flagship and made to Yamaha's 'flagship' standard. They also marketed it 'badly'. "for people who have become frightened of high power sports bikes and want something more manageable'.

Instead of marketing it to it's strengths and it had a lot of them. Sadly a lot of 'testers' didn't get the concept. Complained it vibrated... oh hell did you FEEEEEEL that engine working! and that it didn't have 'power, redline was too low, they rode it as a sportbike 4cyl they were used to, rather than torque surfing.

 

I had so much fun on fairly twisty sections of road when the sheer torque drive out of corners, I could upset a lot of sprotbike riders. I would rate the MT-01 as one of the top 4 bikes I have ever owned. A local HD mechanic rode mine and his comment was "It's a grown up's version of a Buel"

[videoarizona]

I would treat it as a used bike. I am guessing that the title was already transferred to the dealer so it will technically be a used bike because it has been titled. Expect to have to do some work on it. Tires for sure, all fluids, (breaks, clutch, coolant, engine oil, and any other fluids it has) possibly rubber hoses and battery. There are parts that do not die from wear or use, they die from age. Some parts age faster when not used. Those parts are 10 years closer to dying, some are already dead. Zero miles is irrelevant, no different than 5,000 miles or so.

 

I would look up the blue book value for that year with low miles and offer that. They can ask anything they want for it and you can offer anything you want, If they really want it gone they may just accept your offer. If they say NO then say "Fine, I will be back next year when it is another year older and still sitting here and offer you less", turn around and head for the door.

 

Flyinfool has it correct. When I bought my VStar 950 Tourer, it had 800 miles on it. Most of those miles were demo rides and one "owner"...who had it for a very short time. It had been sitting essentially "new" for a few years. I had them change all fluids, check date code on tires and give me a 2 year "YES" bumper to bumper warrantee. They did a good job going over the bike for me prior to purchase. I was the second owner as the first guy never even titled it. He only had it a few days and turned it back in. Strange situation, but worked out well for me. Dealer was first owner on title. Loved that scoot.

[RedRider]

Flyinfool is right. The minute you drive it off the lot, it is essentially a 10 yo used bike.

 

Looking up KBB:

 

$5700 retail. Trade in $3585.

 

Offer them $5000 with new tires and an extra warranty thrown in or $4000 as it sits. If they say no, tell them you will be back next year (after they paid taxes on it again) with an offer of $4500/3500. Talk with the General Manager not a sales guy. The sales guy won't make any money on the sale. The GM just wants it off their floor.

 

RR

[Patch]

Yeh that was a weird one, on the MT-01 they retained the right side drive, but it was a chain drive, no jack shaft. I guess for the belt they had to run it opposite side for enough room? That nut was also an issue on them as was the rear swingarm, it needed beefing up and was recalled on early ones. I would love to have found out if the Warrior ECU is identical to the MT's. There were 3 factory ECU's standard, stage 2 {non road} and stage 3 {racing} Stage 2 which I had changed the ignition curve slightly for better throttle response, richened the mixture, removed the O2 sensor and the Exup valve {yes they fitted that to the MT} and removed the 'horrible 'power bump' at 2750rpm. To get it through the Euro regs, for noise.. Those bazooka silencers were pretty loud for standard... they closed the exup valve which dropped the noise level considerably, but obviously dropped the power output too, but came back on song at 2750. I'd love to see if the MT ECU's could be fitted or the mapping transferred to the Warrior. With the kit you describe {patrick racing kit?} It'd be interesting to se how much more you'd get out of a Warrior...

 

on the MT a stage 2 with gutted mufflers fitted with 2inch perf and wadding, open airbox, K&N and a fuel controller... lifted the top end by a bit over 10mph, Hmmm?

acceleration was noticeably improved and torque was as well. Injected or carbonated tuning the air/fuel flows will improve torque which is the what we feel during the acceleration cycle, but you have to pick your pony, down low, mid range or up high; or move into a variable type induction. Also important to keep in mind flows are both ways so, volume while constant may not be all combustible which will lower combustion temps; this then is a scavenging issue or simply expressed as imbalanced/inefficient flows. On this setup you might consider duration as the next logical yet impractical modification.

Biggest improvement was actually the top gear roll on at 70mph onwards.

The mods you describe will produce this result at the cost of mid range where, flows need to be teased to produce higher torque curves. Air dumping is a crap shoot usually the dividends pay out up high, no balanced torque curve.

[Kretz]

There are quite a few of those bikes for sale around the country. Low miles, good condition... prices seem to vary from around $4500 to $7000. & as has been said previously once it goes out/ gets titled it's a ten year old used bike!

I suspect the asking price of $10,000+ is why it's still in the stealership after 10 years.

[Graywulf]

[/color]The mods you describe will produce this result at the cost of mid range where, flows need to be teased to produce higher torque curves. Air dumping is a crap shoot usually the dividends pay out up high, no balanced torque curve.

 

Hi Steven,

normally I'd agree with you, but in this case 'no'. Reason.

 

To comply with the Euro emission reg's, Yamaha as I described closed the exup valve at the RPM 'noise testing' for exhaust is performed, this left both a power drop and then a 'power step' at 2750. {5.5k rpm redline} Standard the bikes ran out of 'puff' at 4.5k rpm. Obviously they also are 'lean burn' to comply with emission laws. The other major problem was they have an 'intelligent' closed O2 loop. It reads and adjusts even if you try to alter fuelling with a controller... Bypassing it, resulted {resistor} with the fault mode activating. It expected to see varying input, so a fixed one was regarded as a fault. {you needed the dynajet V with O2 optimser and autotune to overcome this with the factory standard ECU}. So Open lid airbox, K&N filter, gutted mufflers {internals including cat's removed, and 2inch perf S/steel running full length} would yes ordinarily produce as you describe., however it also required a replacement Yamaha factory 'stage 2' ECU, this removed the O2 circuit, also removed the Exup valve, and altered timing. fuelling and ignition curve. So what you were doing with a 'stage 2' tune was allowing the engine to be what it should be without all the emission controls.

I can assure you placed against a bog standard and a stage 1 {K&N filter and road legal Akropovic muffles} It was noticeably faster, for top speed, acceleration and roll on/mid range torque. The extra top speed came really because the bike could now breath properly beyond 4.5k rpm.

 

I'm on holiday for 2 weeks from tomorrow, so may not be able to get here, I think I'm still registered with the MT owners and could get a lot more info. There's one guy in Finland who ice raced an MT and was getting 'insane' power from it.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Graywulf

[BlueSky]

My thoughts on buying that bike is, Is it the type of bike that you really want? If so, and you can afford it, the dealer might talk turkey if he knows you are serious. If you want a bike like that, you won't find a better example than a "new" bike. It's a heckuva lot different from a Venture with its vibrating v-twin and different hp/torque curves.