Engine noise possibly timing chain slap?

[sleadhed]

2007 RSV 42K on the clock. Oil changes every 2500 like clockwork. At 30K Adjusted valves, Barrett clutch. upgraded stator and RR around 20K.

at 53 my hearing is not what it used to be To many years operating air tools as a auto technician. It started very subtle and quiet then in a matter of 200-300 miles is much worse the best way i can describe the noise is timing chain slap. it is not rhythmic with RPMs. sound comes from both left and right sides more from the front. when I put a stethoscope on the engine it is loudest on the case half bolts under the water pump. It is not a grind type but an knock/slap metallic noise that has no tempo or rhythm. real bad at cold start and will quiet down some as it reaches operating temperature. When the noise first started I drained and changed oil. No sign of metal in oil. It runs smooth no miss or skips. It has progressed to the point I am afraid that if I continue to run it to try to isolate It will become catastrophic. (at that point it will not be difficult to pin point cause) LOL

Sucks to be me! Any ideas??

[skydoc_17]

Hey Ken,

First off, Merry Christmas, my friend! Seldom have I heard of a timing chain becoming so loose that it created a noise like you are describing. I have seen more than one water pump impeller get noisy, and fail. Since the water pump replacement would be a job that could be done at home, mind you not cheap! Before I would take that bike to a dealer and have them remove the engine and replace the timing chain, I personally would replace the water pump and see if the noise subsides. With that being said, if it is the water pump, I have a noisy water pump in my 89'VR that has been that way since I have owned it. (40K miles) Keep an eye on the coolant level, watch the temp gauge, and turn the radio up a bit more, and all will be well. To be honest, it would be cheaper to pick up a used motor than have a dealer address the timing chain issue. The timing chain has a tensioner on it, if there was that much slack in the timing chain, you would see it in the performance of the bike. With the water pump, a wobbly impeller will eventually take out the seal, which will cause coolant to dribble out of the "weep hole" at the bottom of the water pump. That's why I said watch you coolant level, and the temp gauge. You will see signs of a water pump failure long before it finally fails.

Please keep in mind that I have never seen your bike, and I can't hear the noise you are describing from my house! My comments are based on working on over 500 of these motors. Your mileage may vary, and this is just my opinion. I personally think that a "wait and see" attitude would work fine in this scenario.

Earl

[cowpuc]

WHAT EARLY SAID - THEM WATER PUMP DRIVES AND PUMPS CAN RATTLE UP A STORM!!

Lets see,, welllll,,, other than assisting @videoarizona (hey Vaz,, any thoughts on this one?) swap out a rear tire, I aint never had the honor of messing with a Gen 2 but, I have messed with trying to track down strange noises on 1st Gens a few times so thought I would toss my of opinion in here..

First off,, I live by and like the old isolate - isolate, when all else fails isolate routine.. That said, I think I would start the bike up and while sitting on it, lay it over from side to side and see if the sound comes and goes. Sometimes bearings cages can come loose and do a lot of rattling around and moving side to side will cause em to go quiet. Also, a loose clutch or stator bolt or a variety of things can alter in sound by doing this.

Another thing you might try is seeing if pulling the clutch lever in and out changes the sound. Does dropping it in gear change it? I would pull the air breather and listen to the intakes and see if they sound normal. I would also make sure she's hitting on all four by spit checkin my pipes and probably toss the sync gauges on it and see how that looks.

If none of the quick testing/isolating lead me on a fixit path (or at least a path that suggested the noise was not going to result in Tip and I walking miles and miles and leaving a busted bike behind ) and I was gonna end up yank covers to see what was inside,, I think I would start with the clutch cover, especially seeing how's you mention it having been updated. Loose clutch baskets and/or worn clutch bearings can cause a LOT of strange sounds and it is not uncommon for those strange, noisy clutch sounds to emminate from the area you are referencing. I think the next cover I would pull would be the Stator cover (I know,, sounds crazy right?) as any form of loose stuff in there can produce strange noises in other places besides the left side.

I have never ever ever had or heard of timing chain issues with these motors.. I ran out a crank bearing in one of mine once and WOWZY did it get noisy but that was well after 200,000 miles of a hard, happy life. Personally, unless there is any history of running er low on oil,, I would be more inclined to think maybe balance shaft noise.. Maybe run the R's up real slowly and see if the noise changes (kind of like looking for big end rod noise) as the balance shaft bearings load and unload..

I know,, getting long winded again,, got a real problem with ..

Hope ya get her figured out and it ends up being something simple like a loose clutch basket...

[videoarizona]

No thoughts on this one, Puc...

 

Crossing fingers it's a water pump impeller...

 

Oh. @cowpuc, I'll be seeing James, @VanRiver , Friday for lunch. December 14th....if you and Tip will be in the area heading West...

Edited December 9, 2018 by videoarizona
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[Marcarl]

Why not try changing the plugs first, it might not be so bad as all that.

[sleadhed]

Skydoc

I have been researching engines. It is possible it could be water pump But I think it is not likely. the noise sounds far more solid/deep that what a typical metal impeller makes. I am leaning more toward loose clutch basket that is telescoping noise.

I have not made up my mind if I want to tear it down or just say screw it and replace the engine.

I'll most likely pull both clutch and stator covers and see if I can see any thing obvious. No matter what I decide to do the fact is the noise will become catastrophic if I continue to run it.

these engines are so small small that the noise just telescopes everywhere.

I am in the middle of moving across state, Once I get settled in and get the shop set up after the new year I'll keep posted of what I find.

Ken

[sleadhed]

Also I would not be surprised if there now is evidence of metal suspended in the oil now. The noise progressed from a slight tick to a very ugly knock.

[frankd]

Like Marcarl suggested, replace the spark plugs, and I'll add check the carb. synchronization. When the 4 cylinders are not balanced, the engine speeds up and slows down as each cylinder fires. These engines make a lot of deadly sounding noises when this happens.

 

Your suggestion of metal in the oil....if you have something mechanically wrong beating itself to death, you WILL have metal in the oil. Except because the transmission shares the engine oil, you will always have some metal in your oil. Do you have a magnetic oil drain bolt? If you do, check it and see if it has more metal than usual on it?

 

Frank D.

[Treb]

Also I would not be surprised if there now is evidence of metal suspended in the oil now. The noise progressed from a slight tick to a very ugly knock.

 

A video clip of the noise would be helpful if you can manage it... As an added bonus, when it's identified we will all have an example to look to.

[OutKast]

This happened to me. Sounded like a mild rod knock, all went away after a carb sync.

 

Like Marcarl suggested, replace the spark plugs, and I'll add check the carb. synchronization. When the 4 cylinders are not balanced, the engine speeds up and slows down as each cylinder fires. These engines make a lot of deadly sounding noises when this happens.

 

Your suggestion of metal in the oil....if you have something mechanically wrong beating itself to death, you WILL have metal in the oil. Except because the transmission shares the engine oil, you will always have some metal in your oil. Do you have a magnetic oil drain bolt? If you do, check it and see if it has more metal than usual on it?

 

Frank D.

[WildBill1]

Got to ask have you experienced a hydrolic start with the engine? This occurs when the fuel pitcock is left in the on position and gas fills a cylinder--engine turns over bends a connecting rod ruins your week.

[djh3]

If its a rod, how about the old pull the plug on cylinders and see if knock quits. If it quits then issue is rod on that cyl more than likely

[sleadhed]

DJH3 This noise progressed so quickly I haven't had any time to do any more than I have with having to get ready for the move across state.

Depending on how bad the little man with a hammer living inside the engine wants out next time I start it, Isolating cylinders to see if there is any change in the sporadic noise would be a great idea.

Took a load over to put in to storage last weekend and had to start her to move her out there is a lip at the entry door that I could not get her over pushing by myself.

As I stated previously the noise gets worse every time I start her after she has cooled off from previous start. I did notice that as I lean the her side to side after running the noise will change some, Tins leads be to think it has something related to a gear, bearing, clutch drum... you know something that it going to have some clearance lash.

It's all speculation at this point until I have time to tear in to the engine.

I appreciate all the thoughts Please keep them coming.

 

DJH3- love your signature, the saddest moment yet with our move has been having to look at her on the trailer in the rear view mirrors. she has only slept out side 6-7 times and this was her first trailer ride.

Broke my heart!

Ken

[sleadhed]

Wild Bill

No hydraulic starts. No odor of fuel in oil. I did think to smell the oil at one point after i initially changed it . I know if oil gets washed down it can lead to very bad things.

thanks

Ken

[djh3]

I can get on board with rotating parts coming loose or something like clutch. From the description you give you have sorted it out some without catastrophic damage.

[KenM]

This happened to me. Sounded like a mild rod knock, all went away after a carb sync.

 

Same thing with my '99 RSV... engine was pretty noisy in neutral, some noise diminished when I pulled in the clutch.... sync'd the carbs and it was MUCH quieter.....

[Patch]

It started very subtle and quiet then in a matter of 200-300 miles is much worse the best way i can describe the noise is timing chain slap. it is not rhythmic with RPMs. sound comes from both left and right sides more from the front. when I put a stethoscope on the engine it is loudest on the case half bolts under the water pump. It is not a grind type but an knock/slap metallic noise that has no tempo or rhythm. real bad at cold start and will quiet down some as it reaches operating temperature. When the noise first started I drained and changed oil. No sign of metal in oil. It runs smooth no miss or skips. It has progressed to the point I am afraid that if I continue to run it to try to isolate It will become catastrophic.

 

"timing chain slap. real bad at cold start and will quiet down some as it reaches operating temperature."

That is the opposite to a loose timing chain.

 

"when I put a stethoscope on the engine"

Wrong choice of weapon, thick handle long screwdriver is better for load knocks.

 

"is loudest on the case half bolts under the water pump"

Post 2 first place I'd look.

 

Can't get over knowing you left her on a trailer, in the cold, without so much as a blanket, very sad!

[RSTDdog]

Before ripping anything apart confirm the following: Spark on all four, Fueling on all four, Running on all four (Cold start spit on finger touch the header pipes or use a non-contact IR thermometer if you own one), after confirmed sparking, fueling and running on all four, check and perform carb sync.

 

Then check the clutch and stator work done previously to see if something loosened up there. These motors do not have a reputation for coming apart on their own,so look for noises anywhere a human has worked on it previously.

 

Also,there is a service bulletin/recall on the 2007 models for the head gasket bolts not being torqued properly. Having Zero Luck turning up the service bulletin for this on Google. Has this been checked on your bike? You may have just enough of a leak that you are ingesting some water. A very clean spark plug would be an indication. Dealer would be able to tell if your bikes VIN is affected.

Edited February 16, 2019 by RSTDdog

[Phrog]

I just received a 2005 RSV as a gift from my father, and when I get it home it started doing the same thing you are describing. Did you ever isolate the issue? I'm new to the forum and I'm trying to figure out how to attach a video/sound clip but not having much luck.

 

How am I supposed to figure out how to fix a bike if I can't even figure out how to post a video!!!

[sleadhed]

Well as it turns out there were two different knocking noises in the engine. The worst one was the tapered bolts with the torx heads that secure the plates for the middle gear shaft on the left side of transmission. There are 4 total one on each end of the two bearing retaining plates. they are staked in to place. the head of one of the bolts (technically tapered cap screws) cracked and fell off at the head from the impact of being staked. I know this because 3 of the 4 have visible cracks when removed. I drilled out and extracted the one that broke off in the engine and replaced them. This time I used red lock tight and let it cure overnight before reinstalling the left rear side cover and filling with oil. (See attached photos of bolts)

After starting, the real horrible knocking was gone but there was still another noise. So at this point I decided screw it got an engine from pinwall with 20K swapped my high output stator and barnett clutch, checked the middle gear tapered cap screws that broke off on my original engine and guess what? They were starting to develop cracking at the base of the tapered head on two of the bolts. they were all replaced and red lock tighted in to place.

 

For those that have been here since 2007 that know I was fighting a misfire under load (basically freeway cruising speed) just after it hit about 1000 miles. You may recall I hat it to two different dealers multiple times each to get this resolved within the warranty. Neither of the two dealers were competent enough to diagnose and resolve the issue. so at 9000 miles I began testing and isolated the #1 ignition coil breaking down under load.

All 4 coils were replaced at that time on my dime because I had lost all confidence in any of the dealers ever touching my bike again.

Well due to the fact that there was no spark in #1 under load and cruising speed for 8000 miles the cylinder got washed out and I had a weak hole even after correcting the failing coil.

(this is all theory at this point, I have not yet torn in to original engine)

 

The 20K engine RIPS!!! this bike has not pulled like that since early 2008 right after I bought it.

 

Sorry for the long post and rant but just wanted to let you all know the out come. Also wanted to warn others of what I found on the middle gear tapered cap screws on both engines.

I will post updates of what I find on my original engine when I get around to tearing it down and rebuilding it.

[Freebird]

I just received a 2005 RSV as a gift from my father, and when I get it home it started doing the same thing you are describing. Did you ever isolate the issue? I'm new to the forum and I'm trying to figure out how to attach a video/sound clip but not having much luck.

 

How am I supposed to figure out how to fix a bike if I can't even figure out how to post a video!!!

 

The best way to post a video is to upload it to YouTube and then link it here.

[Phrog]

Thanks freebird for the help posting, but the site won't let me post it yet because I don't have 20 posts yet. But now there's a youtube video titled

 

"2005 Royal star venture knocking" I'd post it here, but I'm still on probation with the site.

 

Did it sound anything like that? I was hoping for something easier like replacing the water pump... I'm handy, but definitely not a mechanic. I think what you've done is well beyond my abilities.

[cowpuc]

Thanks freebird for the help posting, but the site won't let me post it yet because I don't have 20 posts yet. But now there's a youtube video titled

 

"2005 Royal star venture knocking" I'd post it here, but I'm still on probation with the site.

 

Did it sound anything like that? I was hoping for something easier like replacing the water pump... I'm handy, but definitely not a mechanic. I think what you've done is well beyond my abilities.

 

Here ya go Piff,, have one on ol Pucster,, glad to help..

Concerning the noise,, IMHO that does not sound like cam chain slop to my untrained ears, it almost sounds like cam journal wear. What I have seen happen is an OHC engine sets for a long while in storage, say +5 years. The top end dries out, the line bored cam journals become vulnerable to galling on start up because the oil pump cant push lube in quick enough when unsuspecting new owner sticks in new battery and starts it = only takes a few revolutions on the cam's at start up to gall the aluminum journals the cams set in. It's not uncommon for there to be no shavings in oil, the galling becomes more of smeared aluminum on the journals. The cam(s) bounce up in down in the journals making a rattle sound that can get quieter with raised "R"s and as oil pressure increases. I have actually rebuilt SOHC 750 Honda's that have had this happen so badly that the cam siezed and split in half. I have repurposed numerous Honda SOHC's for Chop builds and ALWAYS prelube top ends of those (and any other long term storage engine) to give them a fighting chance of being a worthy engine pre tear down and rebuild. IMHO, the little Honda XR80 and 100 are the worst of the worst at developing the scenario I just explained. It was so common that Honda Inc finally put a little oil plug in the oil passage on the jug right above the Spark Plug. On oil change the owner is suppose to remove this plug, kick the engine over until oil drips from the oil plug then replace plug. This often over looked little test assures oil to the line bored cam journals at start up and checks to make sure the oil pump is functioning.. Anyway,, here's the vid,, hope this helps:

 

[bongobobny]

Wish the video was a little longer...

 

Just out of curiosity, if you squeeze the clutch does the sound change at all?? How about if the clutch is squeezed and you put it into gear???

[sleadhed]

I have to agree with cowpuc that noise definitely sounds valve train speed. Try to isolate it more on the valve covers with a stethoscope or if you do not have a stethoscope use a long screwdriver, Place the tip of the screwdriver on the area you want to hear better the rest your ear on the end of the handle of the screwdriver. Also when one of the center gear bearing retainer bolt heads break off the noise is not rhythmic wit RPM's like yours it is very sporadic.

Good luck

Ken