Seafoam in the crankcase

[Patch]

Hi guys,

 

So Seafoam in the crankcase, does it benefit?

 

Some recent and past background. My first street bike was the Commando. Many in my neighborhood ran British the metrics were just at their begging’s in Canada quick but seemed to not last. They were 2 stokes for the most part and to most of us we found their dialect impossible to understand or tune!

Our bikes got torn down often and if I were to sum it all up, the consistent problem was heat related. Well heat on air cooled anything is first (then shear) to degrade crankcase oils. Adding to this was the effect on all the gaskets that cooked crack and leak both oil out and contaminates in and so this grind wore us down quickly.

2000 mile intervals help some but not enough. STP who didn’t have a case going? Bardahl gasket stop leak good for what ails, not really.

Tearing them down we saw consistencies like bad journal caps for one, so would xW50 be the answer? It helps but it was also slower to refresh which leads to coking, so right back to the bottom line, it had to be a thermal property issue.

Another major here was varnished cylinders, caps are easy but varnish cheats compression. Not only does varnish reduce thermal conduction but it stalls the rings, makes them ineffective at distributing combustion heat. Now stalled rings not rotating means they are in a constant position not following the hone; the honing instead of forcing rotation is smooth like glass unable to trap and hold oil molecules. This insulating property also reduces heat transfer, that’s like more than 40% of our expect heat transfer, serious stuff on an air cooled engine because what can’t be dissipated has to be stored.

More chemicals between intervals were needed and it proved helpful because we were dissolving the leftover broken down oil by-products caused by combustion! What these chem’s did was keep the passages flowing, an example journal ports, push rods and restore some “bite” to the alloy surfaces. The oil rings would wash the cylinder walls second rig would agitate and scrape it down to the crankcase, then the top ring (compression ring) could rotate and lock meaning, we use more of the compression to torque the crank!

We still had sheer to deal with tho and the oils of the day were not reliable or living up to the hype. Sure Brand names could get you through a race but could it get you through to the next interval?

[Patch]

So my 6.0, I mentioned I tore down the turbo but then and afterwards I developed exhaust leaks. These freaking up and down stream pipe are a major pain in the ass, cab on, but I took my time and fixed it all up. SK has an app for measuring HP and estimated torque so we gave it a go and the 6.0 is a fun thing when all lit up!

Heading out and she starts smoking, ****! I have all ford injectors all recent and #8 was just dune say 10k ago. When we monitor systems on these, one thing we check for is oil temps. It is accepted that its ok if within 15* of coolant, mine was 12* suggesting under load I may exceed this limit.

Ford diesels have a complex oil system that performs a double duty; it is also used as hydraulics to drive the Huei fuel injectors. The oil pressure before the injector is between 500 and 3700 psi the injector multiplies this by 7, here’s a quick clip.

As a result a Huei injection system shears the oil much quicker than a motorcycle gear box. There is no ring on a Huei piston it achieves pressure through its design fit tolerance! This presents potential issues because and in large part of its exposure to heat. The oil under duty can foam, this can and usually does create something called “stiction” If you disassemble a Huei and examine the intensifier piston you will find what we found back in the day, golden brown varnish coated wall surfaces (say like a sticking lifter). This has now changed the tolerance and you guessed it stic tion.

I pulled codes and found #8 was over fueling, why 8? Well design flaw of course, not the injector but heat distribution at that location, (end of fluid runs) yes 2 fluids oil and diesel.

One thing I noticed when tearing down the turbo was that my ICP was showing signs of age, it is difficult to get at on the early 04s as it’s under the turbo and, they are expensive if not replacing with the China brand.

[Patch]

There is at least 2 proven products for stiction, one works fast the other prevents within intervals, they are friction modifiers and not something we want to use with a wet clutch like our bikes.

 

Did you know Seafoam can be added to your oil change? Oil on the 6.0 is a serious maintenance schedule. Working on them means cleaning away any potential contaminates that may enter the system. The Huei fuel system is absolutely unforgiving, clean stable oil is a must.

I still had the heat issue to deal with so I ran a bottle Seafoam through the system right after changing the oil that’s for 14lt of oil. https://seafoamsales.com/how2instructions/

I monitored oil pressures, heat via diagnostics and viscosity visually/feel off the dip, it was as they promote, all true. Also and more import to the exercise was that it lowered temps. The 3 we monitor are all buddied up together up front (skipping past intercooler) so one can affect the other. If my crankcase oil is a lower value then so too is my coolant and same for trans. In general I found coolant stayed lower longer and oil under moderate load was 6* over coolant and when pushed 8* that is certainly a win.

 

Does it help with stiction? Well likely not aggressive enough to on these Huei’s. But for the thermal conduction (heat transfer) yes it was the only new factor applied, so it had to have cleaned the walls that provide the contact area or dissolve restrictions along the way and throughout because the whole system is a heatsink the cooler just . Here’s something else, the ICP blew; this is very much built like a oil sending unit on a typical engine, it can clog and if the clog disappears on an old unit she’ll leak under pressure. ICP was du no doubt but it wasn’t leaking till..

Focuses on the oil passing through.

 

I am a believer in changing oil before winter storage which in my opinion reduces pitting, drying out with the combustion acids left to degrade surfaces. I can see how one might consider changing oil adding seafoam put some miles on and then storing. Of course you can use it to stabilize the fuel in the tank but I always drain my blows regardless.

In case I haven’t mentioned before I don’t think firing up a bike for 5 or 10 minutes while stored is a good idea, for one operating tempature is rarely achieved meaning to much carbon, and two it tends to pug the pilots.

But fuel off you may consider spinning it over to pump fresh working oil through the system and keep the chem’s working for you.

 

Anyways safe to run on, every other oil interval will likely reduce performance losses.

 

One additional note, this thing about using ATF for stuck rings or preventive crankcase maintenance is a bad idea and proven so as well.

 

Patch

[BlueSky]

[djh3]

So just had this conversation with a neighbor about sea foam. Yes I agree it is great for the fuel. But if it breaks up varnish etc, if its in the crank I think it would wash off the bearings and possibly cause washed out bearings.

[BlueSky]

I read on a F150 forum that the only fuel injector cleaner recommended by Ford is Chevron Techron. Don't know much about diesels. Supposedly Seafoam is bad for the cats. And I would not ever put Seafoam in the engine oil.

[camos]

Here is a clip from the Seafoam info page:

 

Preparation and Instructions:

 

• Add 1 ounce to 1.5 ounces of Sea Foam Motor Treatment per oil quartfor all 4-cycle gasoline and diesel engines.
  
• When ready, remove oil filler cap and simply pour the recommended amount of Sea Foam Motor Treatment directly into the engine crankcase. Use a funnel if needed. Do not exceed one treatment per oil change interval.
  
• Though Sea Foam can be added at any time between oil change intervals, we recommend adding Sea Foam to oil crankcases 100 to 300 drive miles before changing oil and filter. When limited, try to drive at least 20 miles before oil change.
  
• When checking dipstick, always change oil that goes from clear to dark.
  

 

Benefits:

> Sea Foam will safely liquefy petroleum residues that restrict flow and lubrication

> Cleans oil control rings, VVT solenoids and actuators

> Dissolves and cleans deposits throughout the crankcase including diesel soot residues

> Cleans and quiets noisy lifters and timing chain tensioners

 

Additional:

> Sea Foam only contains petroleum-based ingredients and cannot harm your engine

> Sea Foam will not change the viscosity of motor oil

> Sea Foam is compatible with all types of Gasoline 4-cycle and Diesel engines

>For use in all types and variations of conventional and synthetic motor oil

> Sea Foam will not affect seals, gaskets, or o-rings

>Most autos/ trucks have 5 or 6 quart oil systems. Use one-half of a 16 oz pint can.

Looks like it should be safe to use to help keep oil passages clean. It's probably not that necessary if oil changes are done on a recommended basis.

[Patch]

So just had this conversation with a neighbor about sea foam. Yes I agree it is great for the fuel. But if it breaks up varnish etc, if its in the crank I think it would wash off the bearings and possibly cause washed out bearings.

 

From my experience varnishing is an engine killer. I've always had a need to take things apart examine, repair and at times make things worse. But I have done this often enough to reconsider short comings in maintenance, design or poor practices.

When Ajay's interest in my hobby grew I thought some rebuild projects would help him develop theory so we took on bikes, cars and what ever together. Oddly I was quite anxious to get him to the bone yards where I could teach him how to apply his senses to different engines, this included pulling covers, carbs, plugs and checking seals. Later I'd tune say -50% let him then tune the rest, then I would show him what ranges he missed. At the beginning on a running something we started as I started with a vacuum gauge and different lengths of screwdrivers, explaining what he was hearing and why it mattered.

 

I found a bike I was always curious about years back, flew down and road it back; now if I say she was at best running on 3 that would be an exaggeration/ she was well below operating limits on the three that could fire. I used only chemicals to restore her limits; not stuff you buy on the shelves but concoctions that a blacksmith in the 70's had shown me and some of what the oldman had passed down as well. I was as a matter a fact about the results as I had done this many times before but I was taken back by Ajay's surprise at the results then others as I entered into what was new to me, forums.

 

Here's some of what I know about old neglected engines: they are usually gummed up, they have had too many owners try to cheap out and give up, they have too many air and oil leaks, they have weak valve springs (high rpm issues) they usually can't seal compression, they are without hone, valve seats are contaminated and carbs well are just shells filled with ..... choices

 

Lets start with the bearings: ball bearings, needle bearing, axial/thrust bearings, journal bearings... They share some common design tables for example, polished and honed or hatched surfaces combined. Why? Now I know we have at least one member that runs a machine shop perhaps he chine in and share some of his schooling? Another common is tempering, why in the same component do engineers mix tempering, and example here could be journals, harden steel crank bearing surface with a soft journal cap. Why? I remember a story my oldman told me about an old truck seizing the crank middle of nowhere. They were tractor towed to a farm and began the tear down, the story went on to how they were back on the road noon the next day. How they did that was by soaking an old leather harness they found hanging in the barn in oil and over night and cut it to render the bad cap and journal suitable to complete their trip. What they understood was they needed to maintain oil pressure to keep the piston rods from crashing and the cranks from seizing again. (1st time I share this)

Honed surfaces hold oil molecules, these molecules reduce friction for whatever bears against them. On the cylinder walls the honing process develops a crosshatch, the angle of the crosshatch is a spec which does two things, hold oil molecules and causes ring rotation. Both are very important and neither can happen when the honing is coated with varnish.

It doesn't have to be Seafoam as I mentioned I've used much more aggressive products with much faster results; but for a maintenance schedule I have trouble seeing the down side.

 

Some years back I was involved with developing some heat energy trials, part of this was to better understand how we could direct more efficiently random and stalled heat for transfer. Patterns and surface texture combinations proved to be the key in my passive transfer which I implement with success. Take a cooling fin surface textured, once defined and shaped the texture provides a direction path this place the energy where it can be more effectively transferred into the exchange medium which on a bike is fluids and air movement. It is important to view the complete system even if the are walled off and or separate exchanges. If you chrome that same fin it will be less effective at transfer, tho likely more effective at attractive the bling bling chicks. Inside the engines most of the castings have bite/rough surfaces, its not just because of manufacturing cost but proven effective bot for liquids and air.

 

So what happens to the dissolved byproducts after say adding Seafoam in the crankcase for maintenance purposes? It will flow with the oil through the system and, expected to only be out of.... when the system is drained; it will not get filtered by the oil filter the microns are to small.

 

In the case of a clogged system that has many mile of neglect or unknown history, with signs of problems; then NO, this is just too passive. Just as it is to passive to unblock a carboned up pilot jet, a more hands on aggressive approach is needed.

 

Washing out the bearings: you can't wash out the bearings in the crank case. They are wet bearing, some like the journals require high pressure to function. In this case what is important is that the tolerances be kept as close to spec as possible. When we loose the spec (exceeds limits) we loose oil pressure and the bearing surface is the oil and then is unable to resist the loads, (in other words - the oil refreshes to fast for lack of flow resistance!) (too slow oil begins to brake down around 200* and cokes above 300*) Stuck rings for example can increase the abrasive contaminants in the oil that then serves to ware down the tolerances, a sign of this effect can be measure by checking oil pressure. An other cause of this could be leaking gaskets that allow unfiltered air into the crankcase or a fancy eye candy air filter that filters less than it should, same for oil filters.

[Sylvester]

I do not have the engine chemistry that many of you have but I do maintain the best I can. In 2009 I bought a Dodge pickup for a job truck with 102,000 miles on it. It had a 4.7L engine, that I had no knowledge of. I took it to my local garage for an oil change and service. Tony told me all was well other than sludge build up and he put a new pvc in it. I took it to my farm and added the required amount of Seafoam and drove it fo 3000 miles. Took it back for service and Tony asked me what I did since the engine was much cleaner. I drove it to 187,00 miles before getting broadsided.

 

[leo3wheel]

About 40K miles ago, I did an oil change and put recommended amount of Seafoam in crankcase. Drove 20 miles and did another oil change. Never noticed any ill effects. Clutch still works fine. In fact, made 9,200 mile trip around the country since then.