2010 venture passing oil through water pump overflow tube

[LarryAndrews]

Hi everyone, I have a 2010 venture that has a recurring issue. It has 95,000 miles on it, always been hyper vigilant about maintenance. I have replaced the water pump when it first started dumping coolant, it went away for a while. Then it started mixing oil and water, so my shop guys replaced the head gaskets which were pretty rough, also replaced all cooling lines, water plugs and flushed the system. All was good for a while, but now it is passing straight oil through the overflow. Any tech gurus out there with advice on how to proceed? And don't say "buy a new bike". This is the third Royal star I have owned, and the first time I have encountered this issue. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

It still runs great, has no power issues, starts right up, no hesitating, no outward engine issues, just leaving a small puddle of oil after running for about an hour or so, which is what my commute is.

Edited November 16, 2018 by LarryAndrews
Spelling

[RDawson]

If I understand you're getting oil from radiator overflow? If so I'd start with the Twinkie seals.

[Freebird]

I don't remember which year but there was one year when Yamaha had an issue. My memory isn't clear on it but I think it was a head gasket issue. It may have been the 2010 model but I'm not 100% sure. I do remember that there was a service bulletin or a recall on it.

 

Just did some searching and it was the 2007 that had the issue. Some bolts were not tightened properly and there was a TSB issued.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Freebird

[LarryAndrews]

If I understand you're getting oil from radiator overflow? If so I'd start with the Twinkie seals.

 

Twinkie seals?

[LarryAndrews]

I don't remember which year but there was one year when Yamaha had an issue. My memory isn't clear on it but I think it was a head gasket issue. It may have been the 2010 model but I'm not 100% sure. I do remember that there was a service bulletin or a recall on it.

 

Just did some searching and it was the 2007 that had the issue. Some bolts were not tightened properly and there was a TSB issued.

 

Thanks for the research, this is really bugging me. I had a 96 Royal star tour classic, I bought used in 2004 with 4000 miles on it, put 100,000 on it, had a 2005, got up to 75000 before it got totaled in the street, and got the 2010 in 2011, which was was the replacement for the 2005. The first two didn't do this.

[M61A1MECH]

If you are getting oil thru the water pump over flow tube the most likely candidate is the seal on the driven shaft that runs the water pump.

I know you said you replaced it already, but the seals are easily damaged during the install process, so you may have the same problem again. I would start there.

[grubsie]

If you are getting oil thru the water pump over flow tube the most likely candidate is the seal on the driven shaft that runs the water pump.

I know you said you replaced it already, but the seals are easily damaged during the install process, so you may have the same problem again. I would start there.

 

I was thinking the head gaskets or a seal. As far as I can figure, those are the only 2 situations where you could possibly get oil in the coolant. I read and re-read Larry's original post he did not mention any seals so I think you are right about seal on the driven shaft.

[LarryAndrews]

I was thinking the head gaskets or a seal. As far as I can figure, those are the only 2 situations where you could possibly get oil in the coolant. I read and re-read Larry's original post he did not mention any seals so I think you are right about seal on the driven shaft.

 

 

They replaced the the entire water pump, would that not include the seals?

[M61A1MECH]

They replaced the the entire water pump, would that not include the seals?

 

Yes it would, but there is no water pump "assembly" for the Royal Stars. It is not like on a car where you unbolt the water pump assembly and bolt in a new assembly. On the Royal Stars you remove the housing that contains the water pump and remove all the seals, bearings, gears and shafts, replace what ever needs replacing. The seals are always replaced because they are typically destroyed during the removal process, but they are tricky to install with out damaging them and as I recall they are direction specific, they must be installed in the correct orientation or they will not work properly, there is an oil seal on one side and a water seal on the other.

 

If you are getting oil, water or a milky mixture coming out of the drain tube in the bottom of the water pump housing then one or both of the seals or the shaft that goes through them is bad. There are other places where the oil and coolant can be exchanged, but the water pump is the most common failure that allows the two to mix.

[Du-Rron]

Hi everyone, I have a 2010 venture that has a recurring issue. It has 95,000 miles on it,

 

Just gettin broken in.

 

always been hyper vigilant about maintenance. I have replaced the water pump when it first started dumping coolant,

 

What caused this condition to happen in the 1st place?

 

... it went away for a while. Then it started mixing oil and water, so my shop guys replaced the head gaskets which were pretty rough, also replaced all cooling lines, water plugs and flushed the system. All was good for a while, but now it is passing straight oil through the overflow.

 

I bet you mean it is mixing oil with the water. To "pass straight through the overflow" I don't know what that means.

 

1. I am wondering about your shop guys and "rough" head gaskets at 95K. Why? Was the coolant bubbling in the radiator with the cap off? A head gasket leak will "eat-burn-drink" coolant causing the coolant to go low, while producing exhaust gasses in the cooling system. A head gasket will have a witness fail mark on it where the coolant and the combustion process meet. Did they show you this gasket?

 

2. I agree with replacing all coolant lines, thermostats, radiator caps, water plugs, and flushing oil out of cooling system especially on a bike that has been in trouble and has 95K on it.

 

3. The three places water and oil could come into contact are: the head gasket, the "twinkie" crankcase breather, and the water pump seal. Any area that has been replaced already is not absolved from being guilty of mixing oil and water again. Bad assembly, using no sealer, reusing old gaskets instead of new, can be contributing factors to failure...again...and again.

 

[cowpuc]

In reading what Duey wrote about not knowing what is meant by "pass straight thru the overflow" I gotta admit I smiled, nodded my head and said out loud,,, THAT is exactly my ??.. My thick skull simply cant discern exactly what we are talking about here so maybe,, in pure humbleness on my part,, I wonder if you could explain exactly what is meant by that comment Larry and also explain exactly where you are seeing/finding oil discharge?

Going from a little experience with the 1st Gen's (never worked on a 2nd Gen like yours) and assuming they are pretty much the same in engine/coolant system design, the water pump is housed on the right hand, front lower corner of the engine - right above the oil level site window. On the bottom of the oil pump housing is a small hole where coolant or oil can leak from if the pump seals fail. Is this the spot you are getting oil/coolant mix from? If so, please note that there is a separation between the seals on that shaft that should be suffecient enough to not allow oil to pass into the waterpump but should make any oil that gets by the oil seal on the engine end of the shaft drain from the weep hole first, keeping it from getting into the coolant inside of the pump housing.The pump shaft end leading into the waterpump where the impellar resides is riding on a ceramic seal/bearing that, when worn, will allow coolant to pass by and then it will exit the housing and out thru the drain hole before it contaminates the engine oil. A mixture of both coolant and oil coming from that weep hole would indicate that both the seals keeping the coolant in the water pump impellar side and the oil seal on the engine of the shaft that keeps the oil in the engine have failed.. Does any of that make sense?

Or, per chance, are we talking about oil in the overflow from the radiator cap area? If so, as mentioned, the "twinkie" coolant exchanger area is a common place to look as would be a head gasket. Another not so common but very commonly overlooked place for issues are the coolant joints up on the heads - located right above the spark plugs. Those plugs are protected from and sealed by "O" rings that also can fail. Parts "8" and "20" are the parts on this diagram that I am speaking of: https://www.yamahapartsnation.com/oemparts/a/yam/50047c16f8700209bc79910a/cylinder-head

I am no guru by any stretch of the word and hopefully I am not leading you on a wild goose chase here but I would look in that direction too, especially if you are picking up coolant in your engine oil as well as vice versa (that was another question I had,, are you seeing any milkyness in your oil?).

A simple but often overlooked method for testing issues like this is the old pressure testing the coolant system. I think Harbor Freight still sells a cheap pump/kit for doing this, its as easy as hooking up a hand pump to a cap with a hose connection on it and putting a few pounds of pressure on the system and see if it holds. If it doesnt you start looking for leaks. Another something to consider is spark plug conditions. Sometimes a head gasket will seep water and the plug of the jug/head that is leaking will have a different look to it. Also, you can usually smell anti freeze in any amount passing thru a combustion chamber in any form..

I know,, I talk wayyyyyy to much,, I get rambling on and on,, sorry bout that..

Edited November 16, 2018 by cowpuc

[luvmy40]

AutoZone has both a coolant system pressure tester and a combustion gas leak coolant tester available in their Loan a Ttool program.

 

The deposit on the pressure tester is about $250.00 as it is a very comprehensive test kit with adapters for any system imaginable, but that is refunded completely upon return.

 

The combustion gas tester has a $25.00 deposit and the test fluid is about $8.00.

 

Full disclosure: I am an AutoZone Comercial Specialist but do not work on commission.

[LarryAndrews]

Just gettin broken in.

 

 

 

What caused this condition to happen in the 1st place?

 

 

 

I bet you mean it is mixing oil with the water. To "pass straight through the overflow" I don't know what that means.

 

1. I am wondering about your shop guys and "rough" head gaskets at 95K. Why? Was the coolant bubbling in the radiator with the cap off? A head gasket leak will "eat-burn-drink" coolant causing the coolant to go low, while producing exhaust gasses in the cooling system. A head gasket will have a witness fail mark on it where the coolant and the combustion process meet. Did they show you this gasket?

 

2. I agree with replacing all coolant lines, thermostats, radiator caps, water plugs, and flushing oil out of cooling system especially on a bike that has been in trouble and has 95K on it.

 

3. The three places water and oil could come into contact are: the head gasket, the "twinkie" crankcase breather, and the water pump seal. Any area that has been replaced already is not absolved from being guilty of mixing oil and water again. Bad assembly, using no sealer, reusing old gaskets instead of new, can be contributing factors to failure...again...and again.

 

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=114966

 

 

When i say straight oil, I mean, whatever is leaking looks and feels like straight oil, no water. As to what caused it in the first place, i don't know. As far as the head gaskets, they showed them to me after they were removed, they looked like pastry dough with a metal ring. I am talking to them again today. Thanks for all the info.

[LarryAndrews]

In reading what Duey wrote about not knowing what is meant by "pass straight thru the overflow" I gotta admit I smiled, nodded my head and said out loud,,, THAT is exactly my ??.. My thick skull simply cant discern exactly what we are talking about here so maybe,, in pure humbleness on my part,, I wonder if you could explain exactly what is meant by that comment Larry and also explain exactly where you are seeing/finding oil discharge?

Going from a little experience with the 1st Gen's (never worked on a 2nd Gen like yours) and assuming they are pretty much the same in engine/coolant system design, the water pump is housed on the right hand, front lower corner of the engine - right above the oil level site window. On the bottom of the oil pump housing is a small hole where coolant or oil can leak from if the pump seals fail. Is this the spot you are getting oil/coolant mix from? If so, please note that there is a separation between the seals on that shaft that should be suffecient enough to not allow oil to pass into the waterpump but should make any oil that gets by the oil seal on the engine end of the shaft drain from the weep hole first, keeping it from getting into the coolant inside of the pump housing.The pump shaft end leading into the waterpump where the impellar resides is riding on a ceramic seal/bearing that, when worn, will allow coolant to pass by and then it will exit the housing and out thru the drain hole before it contaminates the engine oil. A mixture of both coolant and oil coming from that weep hole would indicate that both the seals keeping the coolant in the water pump impellar side and the oil seal on the engine of the shaft that keeps the oil in the engine have failed.. Does any of that make sense?

Or, per chance, are we talking about oil in the overflow from the radiator cap area? If so, as mentioned, the "twinkie" coolant exchanger area is a common place to look as would be a head gasket. Another not so common but very commonly overlooked place for issues are the coolant joints up on the heads - located right above the spark plugs. Those plugs are protected from and sealed by "O" rings that also can fail. Parts "8" and "20" are the parts on this diagram that I am speaking of: https://www.yamahapartsnation.com/oemparts/a/yam/50047c16f8700209bc79910a/cylinder-head

I am no guru by any stretch of the word and hopefully I am not leading you on a wild goose chase here but I would look in that direction too, especially if you are picking up coolant in your engine oil as well as vice versa (that was another question I had,, are you seeing any milkyness in your oil?).

A simple but often overlooked method for testing issues like this is the old pressure testing the coolant system. I think Harbor Freight still sells a cheap pump/kit for doing this, its as easy as hooking up a hand pump to a cap with a hose connection on it and putting a few pounds of pressure on the system and see if it holds. If it doesnt you start looking for leaks. Another something to consider is spark plug conditions. Sometimes a head gasket will seep water and the plug of the jug/head that is leaking will have a different look to it. Also, you can usually smell anti freeze in any amount passing thru a combustion chamber in any form..

I know,, I talk wayyyyyy to much,, I get rambling on and on,, sorry bout that..

 

It is oil coming from the weep hole on the water pump. No water as far as I can tell. I am talking to my shop again today, thank you for al the info.

[Du-Rron]

. Another not so common but very commonly overlooked place for issues are the coolant joints up on the heads - located right above the spark plugs. Those plugs are protected from and sealed by "O" rings that also can fail. Parts "8" and "20" are the parts on this diagram that I am speaking of: https://www.yamahapartsnation.com/oemparts/a/yam/50047c16f8700209bc79910a/cylinder-head

 

You nailed it. I forgot about the coolant joints. As we will read further on, it was the "weep" hole.

[Du-Rron]

It is oil coming from the weep hole on the water pump. No water as far as I can tell. I am talking to my shop again today, thank you for al the info.

 

 

Bingo.

[cowpuc]

It is oil coming from the weep hole on the water pump. No water as far as I can tell. I am talking to my shop again today, thank you for al the info.

 

Thanks Larry, IMHO, just knowing where the oil is appearing helps a lot in possibly helping you. What you will probably find is that the oil seal on the engine side of the water pump shaft has failed. I have knocked a few of those out over the years with the same result as you are experiencing and want to assure you that its really not that difficult of a repair or that uncommon. A word of advice that you might consider though, on my 1st Gens, when that particular seal has leaked, I also check the impellar shaft that passes thru that seal very carefully as it is known to wear a smudge into the shaft which creates a difficult area for the lip of the seal to seal against. If it were me and I was paying for someone else to repair it, I would ask them to replace the impellar/shaft and all replace all related seals and bearings and then to be sure and save all the old parts for me. When I picked up the bike I would be expecting to see parts 6 (bearing), 7 (seal that keeps engine oil from leaking out of weep hole), 8 (mechanical seal - ceramic if I recall - that keeps coolant in water pump and not leaking from weep hole), 2 (impellar with shaft) as shown in the parts diagram link. Again, I have never ever ever worked on an RSV and I suppose it is possible that the impeller shaft is separatable from the impellar itself - if this is the case, I would have no problem with them spinning a new shaft into the impellar, its the new shaft I would be looking for so the seal has a good contact area to seal against.. Make sense?

Here is that link: https://www.yamahapartsnation.com/oemparts/a/yam/50047c17f8700209bc79910e/water-pump

[MiCarl]

It is oil coming from the weep hole on the water pump. No water as far as I can tell. I am talking to my shop again today, thank you for al the info.

 

There is a shaft that comes through the crankcase to drive the water pump. There is a seal on the crankcase side and a seal on the water pump side. The drain hole lets liquid that gets in the gap between escape so they don't contaminate each other. When the water pump seal failed you had coolant draining from the hole. Now it's the crankcase seal (and maybe the bearing too) so it's leaking oil.

 

Replacing that crankcase oil seal isn't generally part of a water pump rebuild/replace.

Edited November 17, 2018 by MiCarl

[Condor]

Twinkie seals?

 

Gotta chuckle out of this one... :-) Way back when in another galaxy when I bought my first '83VR, I didn't know what 'H' the heat exchanger located in the valley between the cylinder banks was called?? So I called it a Twinkie 'cause it looked like one. The name stuck and I've even seen the term used on other websites... My addition to Venture lore... :-)

 

BTW my money is on the oil seal in the water pump. The overflow drain sits between the two seals. An early warning system for a worn out seal. Be it water or oil. If you don't have oil in the coolant yet consider yourself lucky, and deal with the seals before it get's worse. You don't want to mess with getting the 'milk shake' out of the radiator and lines... Don't ask me how I know that...

[VstarAl]

Good day! I know this thread is a bit dated, but on my 2007 Venture I am experiencing a similar situation. In the fall of 2018 I noticed that the coolant in the overflow tank looked like chocolate milk. I removed the overflow tank and cleaned it thoroughly. After that I drained and flushed the cooling system. The coolant that I drained looked normal, I did not notice any milkiness in it; the only milky coolant was found in the overflow tank. Since it was near the end of the riding season I changed the oil and oil filter, and I noticed no coolant mixed with the oil (thankfully).

 

Fast-forward to April 2019. A few weeks ago I was riding the bike home from work, and partway through the ride I noticed a bunch of coolant sprayed on the right side of the bike. After I got home and inspected the situation, I found the hose between the radiator cap and radiator had burst. (Thankfully I was able to make it home without having the bike overheat.) When I removed the radiator cap, I noticed some splotches of milky-looking coolant in the neck. And when I looked at the overflow tank, the tube that dipped into the overflow tank looked it it had pure oil on it, and the coolant looked quite dark.

 

There are a few rubber tubes that extend to and "dangle" at the bottom of the chassis beneath the driver's seat. The end of one of those tubes is very oily, and the other two are dry.

 

I'm trying to figure out where on earth the oil is getting into the coolant. This issue sounded very similar to the one at the beginning of this thread, and I read the suggestions on this thread, but am wondering if it'd be possible to get even more specific as to where to start troubleshooting with the symptoms described. The bike has about 57k miles on it and it runs fine. (If it'd help, I can snap a few photos and attach them.)

 

Thanks!