having starter issues

[dueyk1111]

have an 06 midnight venture, turn the key on,hit the starter button and slow,very slow turn over. let up on the button and hit it again and fires rite up. been that way since i bought it. went to put it up for the season, threw in some seafom and stabil, hit the starter and very slow turn over again, twas cold out bout 40 or 45 degrees. shut the key off put 6amp charger on it, put the nibco heater blowing at it, left it alone for half hour. went back and turned the key on and it started all by itz self. turned key off it stopped. turned key on and it started all by itz self again, didn't have to hit the start button. did the same thing when i used the kill switch. have taken right hand handle bar switch pack off, cleaned starter button, really didn't look as bad as i thought it might. dieelectric greased it before i put it back together,. have the ignition switch bypass installed, gonna change out the relay. anything else that could have the starter locked on? will greatly appreciate any and all hep!!!

[Du-Rron]

 

Help any?

 

Check out the 3's and the 12's with a meter, then work backwards if those are not it. Bet 12 is corroded.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Du-Rron

[dueyk1111]

i have the old relay yet, i get time i'll switch it again. i hope itz not the ignition switch.

[djh3]

Hers my best guess. Either the starter solenoid is stuck "on" or possibly the Button on the handle bars is shorted. The ignition switch "allows" voltage to be passed around to what ever circuit needs it. But does not "make" the starter actually engage. So probably what you need to do is OHM out the starter side with the battery disconnected. See if it OHMs out across the solenoid, if it does without any voltage then it is shorted

[bongobobny]

One other possibility, I had this happen to me and it has happened to others as well. Check to make sure your Starting circuit cut off relay hasn't fallen off of its mount and is laying on the motor with its case melted. It is located near the fuel pump and overflow tank...

[uncledj]

Starter solenoid.

Sounds like a hit and miss situation on whether it's making good contact.......When it's not making good contact, the contacts will heat up to the point where they weld themselves together. It's a fairly common occurrence with old compressor contactors.

If that's what's going on, at this point it will not release until you pry the contacts apart or replace the solenoid. If you have to pry them apart the solenoid's done anyway.

[dueyk1111]

thanks all for your hep. hopefully i'll get time this weekend to work on it

[djh3]

Starter solenoid.

Sounds like a hit and miss situation on whether it's making good contact.......When it's not making good contact, the contacts will heat up to the point where they weld themselves together. It's a fairly common occurrence with old compressor contactors.

If that's what's going on, at this point it will not release until you pry the contacts apart or replace the solenoid. If you have to pry them apart the solenoid's done anyway.

 

So been a long time since I had that part of bike apart. Is the solenoid for the RSV "special" I'm sure Yamaha thinks it is. So could you use a good old Ford type solenoid?

[uncledj]

Never thought to try that. I dunno why a different style wouldn't work....it's just a set of contacts with a contact bridge pulled together by an electromagnet. I do know that some of the old Ford solenoids were kind of funky.....with 12v to one coil terminal and the frame of the solenoid was the ground.....or something like that. I remember having trouble understanding why Ford set them up that way......I tried using one for the pump on the hydraulic leveling jacks on my motorhome and I had to insulate the frame from the grounded mounting point.

Anyhoo ...if you have a solenoid with a coil that is NOT grounded to the frame, Id imagine it should work.....not sure how the Yammy solenoid is set up. One of the gurus on here should chime in on that though.

 

 

[bongobobny]

Yes, old Ford solenoids will work, I've heard of it being done. They are physically and electrically pretty much the same...

[Flyinfool]

On the bike the start switch provides the ground to engage the solenoid, the solenoid is wired hot. The Ford type is expecting the start switch to provide +12V, that is why the case is grounded. The ford type will work but you have to be careful to wire it correctly and may have to insulate the case from ground, and connect a separate wire to ground, or you could let the magic blue smoke out of something.

[RedRider]

Have you, perhaps, removed the cassette deck on your bike? If so, did you just cut the cable off?

 

I helped another VR member several years ago that did this and a ground was making contact and causing the bike to start when the key was turned on.

 

RR

[saddlebum]

Ford actually made a couple starter solenoid styles some are grounded and only have one small terminal along with the large battery studs (3 terminals total) to which the 12v signal wire attaches. Some actually have two small terminals along with the 2 large ones (4 terminals total). In the later case the solenoid/relay is not grounded and require both a ground wire and 12v wire. Either of which can be used to signal the relay while the other is used as a constant and this is the relay you would want to use provided it can be physically mounted. The other option is pull a Cole Hersee catalogue. there are a number of solenoids that can be used and then see which is readily available at your local parts dealer. Just remember to choose one with 4 terminals all will work electrically just pick a mounting configuration that will work.

 

Check these 2 links you can see what I mean by 3 or 4 terminal solenoids.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=cole+hersee+solenoid&client=firefox-b&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWwIuKqLbeAhWBmOAKHaxXB5wQsxgIKw&biw=1280&bih=607

 

 

http://colehersee.com.au/switches/solenoids/

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2018 by saddlebum

[dueyk1111]

ok, cleaned and tested the handlebar switch,,,, its good, work's the way its supposed to. switched out the starter relay with the old one, still the same problem. went out and put it in gear, would not start, pulled the clutch in and still would not start. all kinds of dash lites flashing and caring on. put it back in neutral, turned key on started right up. must be neutral safety switch. gonna try to find it and bypass if i can.

[dueyk1111]

ok, had the kickstand down when i tried to start to test neutral switch, put the kickstand up and all worked as it should, wouldn't start in gear, pulled in the clutch and it started, put the kick stand down, and again would not start in gear or with the clutch pulled. don't know where to go next other than ignition switch. any ideas.

[dueyk1111]

have also noticed that the oil pressure lite and the water temp lite are both all the time after you start the bike. they turn on when you turn the key on and stay on after the bike starts

[bongobobny]

YUP!! Your problem IS the Starting Circuit Cut-Off Relay!!! That is the exact same symptom I had when mine fell off of the mounting tab and laid against the engine and melted!!! Once the plastic case is melted through, it puts a ground where a ground shouldn't be, and the result is both red dash lights on, AND the starter motor engages as soon as you turn the key on!! That relay, which is actually more than a relay, sets below the seat between the false battery covers about in the middle. You will need to remove your radiator overflow tank to get to it...

[dueyk1111]

i'll look for it tonite if i get time. THANKS!!!!

[dueyk1111]

did the relay you suggested and still the same problem. wish i was laid off so i could devote all my time to fix'n this problem

[uncledj]

I'm a HVAC mechanic, and, as a mechanic I know that every once in a while you'll run into one of these sort of problems, and they make you crazy.

I recently had a newer HVAC unit at a truck stop that would trip out on a low pressure safety....reset and let it run and it would run textbook.....a week later I got the same call.....then again....and again....went on all Summer....had 4 different techs on it and no one found anything out of sorts.

I got in the habit of calling Lennox tech support for this unit, and after replacing parts (at their suggestion) 3 times...(I was never comfortable that what they suggested would solve the problem)....the 4th time I got a different support guy who told me of a programming glitch with the motherboard on that particular unit. He sent me a new program that I downloaded to a flash drive and then put the new program in the unit and it ended the problem.

Not the sort of stuff I would have expected, and not what I normally do,....but how in the heck would I have known without the knowledgeable tech support person...???

 

Point being that if you stick with it long enough and if you're open to input from others, you'll eventually get it figgered out.

It's a major PITA, but sure feels good when you finally get-er-goin'.

Keep pluggin'

[dueyk1111]

thanks, i hav'nt given up yet. have a couple of other pro's i need to talk too. tried the relay under the seat, now gonna try the other one that bogobony suggested

[bongobobny]

OK, here's what happened when I had the melted starting circuit cut-off relay issue. When the relay fell off the mount and laid on the engine it took a while for the engine heat to melt the plastic cover. From what I remember, and it all happened in one day, first I had the two red lights come on so I checked the oil level and added antifreeze. The next thing that happened was the automatic start with the key on! Went to troubleshoot that issue but what was happening at that point was as the engine cooled, the issue went away, but as soon as the bike warmed up again it occurred again! What was happening, as close as I could figure out, was when the engine heated up the contacts across the starting circuit cut-off relay were being shorted to ground which made both the oil level and the overtemperature lights to turn on and it put a ground onto the starter solenoid via the blue line. I didn't take the time to actually totally troubleshoot the exact cause, for when I went to check the connector on the SCCOR that's when I found it to be a melted mess laying on the engine. A brand new SCCOR fixed all of the problems!

 

So, in your case, because your relay was still where it is supposed to be, you may have other issues associated with the problem. The first thing I would look at is with the key off see if there is a ground all of the time on the blue wire going to the starter solenoid. If so then the issue is somewhere with the blue wire being shorted from the Start circuit relay to the solenoid. If there is no ground there with the key off, then the next thing to look at is the start switch. There should be an open to ground on the blue/white wire (with the key off) and a short to ground when you press the start switch. If there is a ground at all times then the issue is probably your start switch is shorted...

[dueyk1111]

alright here we go. ended up hav'n to take the bike to a local motorcycle mechanic,[ not a stealer ] guy has worked on ventures before. he had it a couple of days but only worked on it 1 day, bout 4 hours. called and said he found the problem. figured out that the am-fm radio had shorted out inside and was feed'n back threw the wiring causing a short. unplugged the white 12 pin plug in right out of the radio and everything went back to normal. so glad he figured it out, i was at a loss as to what else to check. i'd a never thought that the radio could have caused the problems i was having. need to find another radio to put back in it. anyone that reads this thread and has a good am-fm radio they want to part with n sell, please get in contact with me and we can work out a deal. thanks to all who try'd to hep, it was truly greatly appreciated!!!!:thumbsup2:

[Sylvester]

Happy you have a solution. My CB quit working six years ago and after chasing what I could I gave up and I can live without the CB.

 

[dueyk1111]

yep, i can live without a cb also. most of my rid'n is done without a helmet anyway.