Audio upgrade

[Shadowhawk]

I know.... I know "this question has been asked a thousand time ya dumbass, use the search bar"

 

Well if I got the answers I am looking for I wouldn't be asking this.

 

Now that is out of the way.

 

I am thinking of upgrading the speakers on my 07 RSV. Any suggestions as far as what would be a good replacement? I found a post from 4 years ago that said polk has some marine speakers that are good. Is that still the case or has something better come out since then? Also if I do end up upgrading the speakers, will I have to beef up the whole system as well by adding an amp? I just want to get a little bit better quality out of my speakers. The ones I have now work but I think they have gotten tired. If I turn them up loud enough to hear them over the wind and exhaust its to the point where they start to distort and they sound crappy.

 

 

 

Sorry about the dumb questions. I don't know jack s%#t when it comes to stereos and speakers. I'm just a hard headed Ironworker. I can tear down an engine and put it back together or weld the world together with my eyes closed, but if it is made out of wood or has wires on it I am a full fledged retard. Good thing I'm not an electrician or a carpenter, I'd be screwed.

[Freebird]

Well, you have touched upon a long and basically unsolved dilemma. There have been many efforts here to improve the sound. Speakers, Amps, Bass Blockers, rear baffles, etc. None have been really satisfying. The simple truth is that the 4" speakers just won't produce the performance needed for a motorcycle. That's why many of us use helmet headsets or earbuds. I personally found that the Edsets work best. They have about the best helmet speakers but I don't use them. They also have a headphone jack integrated into the module and I plug a set of earbuds into them and then put my helmet over them.

 

To answer your question though. Opinions vary but the most popular speaker choice seems to be the Polk DB401 models. Now I think that one has been discontinued and replace by the DB402 but they are still available.

 

There are others that will work and some have better specs but you have to be wary of the size of the magnets, especially for the rear. There is limited space for them. I don't know if the 402s have the same size magnets as the 401.

[Shadowhawk]

Ah ok. Thats some good information to know. My next question was going to be if speakers is a dead end what about the headsets that i can plug into the comm system. Is the wired option obsolete? What is a good set that doesn't cost your first born child and a sacrifice to the Yamaha gods. Also I am kind of on the fence weather to go bluetooth, wired or even both. Have 2 helmets one wired for sound the other wireless. I like having different options.

[Freebird]

The wired option is not obsolete and about the most cost-effective choice. Wired headsets are readily available and still used on many models. Price despends upon the quality of music you want. Like I said, none of the actual helmet speakers ever satisfied me. The only thing that really did it for me was the Edsets that I could plug my earbuds into and then put my helmet on over them. That is a little more trouble but well worth the effort. The only headsets that I know of that have a jack for the earbuds are the Edsets. They are not cheap though. J&M makes some cheaper units (in the $70.00 per set range) and also more expensive units.

 

The simplest way to test and see if you like that option would be to plug a set of earbuds into your phone, put your helmet on, give it a try. If that does it for you and you want to tie into the bikes system for intercom and etc., then you would need to add a couple of the Edset modules to your helmet.

[videoarizona]

I'm glad Freebird brought up ear buds. I have $300 headsets, ( https://www.jmcorp.com/SeeProducts.asp?PF=08 ) but prefer the passive noise cancelling ear buds for my listening pleasure. There are a few ways to get earbuds connected. I chose the 5pin Edsets adapter. expensive but worth it in my opinion./ You can also make your own adapter cable. There is a headset/intercom pin out diagram here on site...just tie into the left/right speaker leads and ground...add a stereo minijack and good to go.

 

https://www.edsets.com/universal_adapter.php

 

The ear buds I use are Etymotic Research... https://www.etymotic.com/consumer/earphones.html but I don't like any of the new ones as they stick out to far and hurt with a helmet on. Mine are older but still work. So you need to look around. If you get the kind that have passive noise reduction, then you will get the best of both worlds, save your ears from loud road/wind noise and better fidelity to your sounds!

 

Yes, my speakers are still connected with ear buds in so I can use the mic for intercom to my honey or for CB to other bikers. I got ear damage in my youth with the Air Force, so I'm doing everything I can to hang on to my hearing.

 

So...there ya go. I have no issues with wired sets and actually prefer them. No charging issues either! Bluetooth is a welcome for many people as it works well for them.

 

Look around and don't be afraid to ask questions at J&M. They are good people. The 2 series of headsets they have do a decent job...just remember that the wind/road noise will distort the music and audio you hear in the speakers unless you buy very expensive helmets!

 

As far as speakers are concerned, Freebird covered that nicely. We don't have the power amp output to really drive high end 4 inch speakers, so our speakers will never sound like a Harley.

 

Good luck...

[DMW]

I installed the polk 402 2 years ago, worked ok, I then installed small marine grade ampl with 100 watt per channel output. There are a lot out there to chose from in all price ranges. I purchased the plye brand, it was cheap, and I wanted to see if it helped. Oh yes it did, clearer sound at high volume, still lack of bass.

When need to will go with a better grade amp next time.

[Rafterd]

Doesn’t really matter what kind of speakers you get, even if they are $1000 Bose, once you turn the volume up, climb on the bike and go 70mph down the road, they’re gonna sound like crap. Just my two cents. Please spend it wisely!

 

Bill

[ChiefGunner]

Doesn’t really matter what kind of speakers you get, even if they are $1000 Bose, once you turn the volume up, climb on the bike and go 70mph down the road, they’re gonna sound like crap. Just my two cents. Please spend it wisely!

 

Bill

 

Its not like that on the new SVTC’s. It’s sounds GREAT and I know there’s others here who can attest to that same fact.

[Rafterd]

Its not like that on the new SVTC’s. It’s sounds GREAT and I know there’s others here who can attest to that same fact.

 

Thats correct. I rode one probably before anyone else here did. But it’s not just speakers that make the difference. Lots of new technology. And when these RSV were new, they probably sounded a lot better than they do now.

[ChiefGunner]

Thats correct. I rode one probably before anyone else here did. But it’s not just speakers that make the difference. Lots of new technology. And when these RSV were new, they probably sounded a lot better than they do now.

I never saw one in person, sat on or rode one until I took delivery of mine 29 Dec 2017.

[Rafterd]

I never saw one in person, sat on or rode one until I took delivery of mine 29 Dec 2017.

 

Well nobody has to tell you how great they are. I can’t wait till I can get my own. I’m gonna ride my RSV about another 40k miles, then I’m getting me one.

[ChiefGunner]

Well nobody has to tell you how great they are. I can’t wait till I can get my own. I’m gonna ride my RSV about another 40k miles, then I’m getting me one.

I’ve got over 12k miles on mine. You’re gonna LOVE it!

[Freebird]

Yesterday was the first time my wife had been on a ride with me on the SVTC. I forgot to look for her headset cord so we just used the bike's speakers. The first time we stopped, the commented that she was shocked at how good the stereo sounded. We were streaming Pandora. The big difference, in my opinion, is the 5 1/2" speakers as opposed to the 4" speakers they used on the RSV.

[Shadowhawk]

Ok so here's another dumb question. What about these speakers?

 

https://www.amazon.com/Rockford-Fosgate-P142-Coaxial-Speakers/dp/B001P86T1U?keywords=4"+speakers&qid=1537804939&sr=8-7

 

Even though it's not a marine speaker I dont plan on riding in any torrential downpours or storing my bike outdoors. How would these hold up in a just in case scenario like getting caught out in the rain. Would it be stupid to put just plain auto speakers in?

[bongobobny]

I'm not sure if the mounting holes will line up properly. I'm not 100% sure on this as it has been a few years since I upgraded my speakers but from what I remember the Yamaha speakers have a "square" frame and not a round frame which has different mounting holes.

 

I used some Kenwood coaxials which helped over the stock single cone speakers. They were around $50 per pair from what I remember. These are just regular automotive speakers. The stock plastic enclosures that our motorcycles work pretty good to keep them dry, the stock speakers are not marine grade anyway! The trick is to buy replacement speakers that have plastic cones and not paper.

 

As you stated, you don't plan on driving through any monsoons any time soon...

[YamahaLarry]

Ok so here's another dumb question. What about these speakers?

 

https://www.amazon.com/Rockford-Fosgate-P142-Coaxial-Speakers/dp/B001P86T1U?keywords=4"+speakers&qid=1537804939&sr=8-7

 

Even though it's not a marine speaker I dont plan on riding in any torrential downpours or storing my bike outdoors. How would these hold up in a just in case scenario like getting caught out in the rain. Would it be stupid to put just plain auto speakers in?

 

I think front speakers would be ok if you got caught in a down pour, but maybe not the rear speakers if these are the paper like construction. You would also have to be a little cautious if washing with garden hose or similar.

 

In the next few weeks, I too will be changing out the speakers in my 09 RSV and considering either the Kicker or Polk Audio. Kicker is a little more expensive, but from all I have read, have a better range especially for the bass which is always issue for small speakers. Kicker is also a little higher rated for peak watts, not that our little radio will reach that output.

Edited September 25, 2018 by YamahaLarry

[Shadowhawk]

The stock plastic enclosures that our motorcycles work pretty good to keep them dry, the stock speakers are not marine grade anyway! The trick is to buy replacement speakers that have plastic cones and not paper.

 

As you stated, you don't plan on driving through any monsoons any time soon...

 

 

That's really interesting, I thought the stock speakers were some all weather special marine type speaker. Now that I know that they are just plain speakers. I dont think I will worry so much about things being that waterproof. Sounds like my main problem might be the mounting situation. I wont really have to worry about water that much when washing since I just use a spray bottle with water and a microfiber towel to wipe the bike down. I might just keep some plastic bags or saran wrap with some tape handy in a pack for emergencies to cover up the speakers in case for some fluke I get caught in the rain which in 10 years that has only happened once.

 

The reason I want to change out the speakers is I found out that the stock speakers really dont like my type of music. Turning them up to Marilyn Manson, Korn or Motorhead tends to make them distort pretty bad.

[bongobobny]

Most, if not all automotive speakers are somewhat "weather resistant" as opposed to a lot of the cheaper home speakers. As mentioned above you want to avoid paper cones like the plague! Marine speakers are more than just water resistant, they also have to be corrosion resistant as well!! When you think marine, think salt water...

 

There should be a thin nylon mesh material under the speaker grille to prevent droplets of water from getting through but not muffle the sound. I can't remember if the 2nd gens have them, the 1st gens did.

 

I've driven through the rain more than once with no damage done to either the front or rear speakers.

 

The main thing is to improve on the dynamic range of the speakers which when you convert to coaxials it does just that. Just make sure whatever speakers you purchase that they have decent sized magnets like around 20 oz for higher power capabilities. Unfortunately, the stock Yamaha amplifier does not put out a lot of power but if you pick out speakers with a lower power capability you can overdrive the speakers into distortion, whereas if you pick out speakers with a large capacity you will not drive the speakers into distortion, but at full volume some distortion will occur in the amp itself. I actually did buy two booster amps to drive the front and rear speakers with more power but never pursued it. Also, unfortunately, there is no substitute for the total volume of air you can push. Going to a 5 1/2 inch speaker does indeed make a huge difference in fidelity and apparent volume level...

[Shadowhawk]

I remember several years ago I installed a set of Hertz speakers in my 08 pontiac grand prix to replace the stock crappy speakers. They sounded awesome but they were pretty spendy. It was a good route to go because I could turn up the volume to the point I couldn't handle it for too long before they would start distorting. I am almost thinking of going a different route and installing a set on the RSV.

 

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_301DCX1003/Hertz-DCX-100-3.html?tp=102&awkw=481974271842&awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=285325365514&awdv=c&awug=1027622&gclid=Cj0KCQjwuafdBRDmARIsAPpBmVWsZdgaxtEO-LjyCLmIKUwRIw1SZrhK9OXHtVonpFgdbbTZooBV5UUaAg_zEALw_wcB

 

I am trying to find what the specs are on the stock stereo system but I can't so I have no idea if these are even possible to even use. God I wish I knew more about this kind of stuff. I guess that's why every time i've dealt with it I just let the pros handle it. But I want to learn more and know what my limits are with this. Funny thing about all my motorcycles they have all opened up new avenues of stuff for me to learn. Looks like this bike is teaching me about sound systems.

 

What about amps? I know I am really limited in this part because of the limited charging system and battery, but what is out there that I can use... what are my limits there?

[bongobobny]

Those look a little pricey IMHO. You may be better off with the Polk DB401's at around half the price. Once again the stock system is not all that powerful, and regardless of how efficient the replacement speakers are the sound quality is going to be limited by its size. Just like engines, there is no replacement for displacement!

 

The issue with power amps is making them weather resistant and finding the area to mount them. Regardless of that, the speaker size is going to be the limiting factor! There is a reason why I gave up on my project, you need two amps, one for the front speakers and one for the rear. Weatherproofing isn't that big of a deal, spray varnish over everything helps, but finding the room is the other issue. There is just so much room in the fairing and that's it...

 

Good earphones and your cell phone is the ultimate answer!

[bongobobny]

PS here's a little information to help you wade through the confusion. As far as power rating goes, the speaker specs are just how much maximum power you can feed into the speaker. The louder the volume is turned up, the more power is being delivered to the speaker. When the power capability of the speaker is less than the power being pushed into it, distortion happens! So, make sure you pick out speakers with a power capacity that is greater than what the amplifier is capable of putting out. My best guess with the RSV is that it is probably around a 30-watt total system, so divided by 4 speakers, that's 7 1/2 watts each.

 

Now, the dirty little secret that amplifier manufacturers don't want you to know, the power rating game! I hate to say this, but nobody is honest!! First off, what is power or watts?? In its simplest form, power is volts multiplied by amps! Now with AC, it gets a little tricky. With a sine wave, there is RMS or root mean square, peak, and peak to peak power! I'm not going to confuse you here, so I will just say these properties can be manipulated by manufacturers so that an honest 20-watt system can be pawned off as a 100-watt system!!

 

So, getting back to speakers, how do you know how honest the manufacturer's rating is?? Well, the two main factors are the voice coil of the speaker and the magnet size! You can't very well see just how good the voice coil is but you can tell how big and heavy the magnets are! The bigger the better!! So, what am I trying to tell you? Go with a speaker that is rated high in power capacity so it can handle whatever you put into it! Just because a speaker is rated at 125 watts does not mean you need that much power to make it work. At low volume, you are probably listening at around 1 watt or less. At normal listening levels, you are probably listening to less than 5 watts!

 

Another speaker spec is SPL. In easy terms, this is like an efficiency rating. The higher the SPL the better. You want something in the high 80's to low 90's. There is a lot more to this as far as matching up systems and enclosures but once again I'm not trying to confuse you with details. Bottom line, the higher the SPL the crisper the sound.

 

As far as frequency response goes, the ideal is 20 - 20,000 Hz but most of us can only hear up to about 16,000 Hz. Bass is the low numbers, generally, from 20 Hz to 200 Hz, midrange is 1000Hz but starts lower than that, and high starts maybe around 5000 Hz. Unfortunately, the lower the frequency (Hz) the larger the air volume is needed. So, for a 4-inch speaker do not expect much bass out of them. Any number under 100 is good, and I would expect the top number to be close to 20,000 Hz even though the average person can not hear that high.

 

Hope you find this information useful in your decision and I hope I haven't made your head spin...

[YamahaLarry]

Someone mentioned above you need 2 amps which isn't true. All you need is a 4 channel amp. I have been looking at a few and thinking of going with the Clarion XC1410 or Alpine KTP-445U. The Clarion is a max of 50 watt per channel X 4 = 200 watt max while the Alpine has very similar specs and price range for both is $120 or so. Pairing that with new marine grade Polk DB402 speakers. I like the Kicker speakers, but they are almost twice the cost and not sure if the gain, if any, is worth it. The Polk are rated at 45 watt continuous and 135 watt peak

 

I ride a lot and am always listening to my music during riding, so this is very important to me.

 

Concerning the mounting of the amp, I don't think it will be a problem. It should fit under the front cowling nicely. My biggest concern with it would be overheating, especially during the summer months, but considering it isn't a real powerful amp, perhaps it would be just fine.

 

Most important to me is non-distorted, non-muffled volume. While I enjoy clarity when listening to music while working or relaxing, when I am riding, give me and Skynyrd volume.

[videoarizona]

I'll go one step further than Bob (btw, well said Bob)....and this will confuse even me! I'll keep it simple.

 

Amplifier power.

 

The below are mathematical formulas that are way to deep to go into here....however...

 

Peak = the absolute most power the amp will provide regardless of the noise level it's also producing. Meaningless number to us.

 

Music power = another meaningless term. Usually about twice that of the real RMS power output. Music power takes into account Peak power an amp can provide for a short time. Another formula...but again useless for us. There are other terms but only audiophiles need them. We certainly don't!

 

RMS = Root/Mean/Square = This is the number that counts...but you won't see this label on cheap gear. This is the amount of power the amp will produce continuously at a given noise level, at the stated frequency response of the amp, at a given amount of resistance (ohms) with both (or all) channels being driven. Ie, 25 watt RMS @.005, 8 ohms, 20-20,000, both channels driven. The 8 ohms is the resistance expected at the speaker connections.

 

So if you see an amp advertised at 100 watts. It may only be a 25 watt rms amp. But don't knock 25 watts....that can drive an efficient speaker loudly!

 

Speakers.

 

Another can of worms.....speakers have magnets that move the voice coil that moves with the current supplied by the amp. The current contains all the frequencies in the music and some noise from the amp...and the system too. I say "all" the frequencies as I'm assuming a decent system. GIGO is the word here for all devices in the music system.

 

Usually, the larger, heavier the magnet...the more air mass can be moved and the more accurately the mass can be controlled. IE, the speakers moves both directions...in and out. The more "control" there is (dampening)...the more accurate the sound. The more mass that can be moved, the more lower frequencies can be heard. Basically the larger the speaker...the more low frequencies can be handled. Bass needs mass and power. High frequencies need less power (less mass to drive smaller speakers) but still need control.

 

We also need to take into account the thermal and mechanical limits of the speakers...but that's going beyond this discussion.

 

On top of all this, the environment the speaker is located can be a boon or a bust for the speaker. A well designed speaker box can help control the dampening of the speaker or help control the smoothness of the frequency response...or both! (Think of dampening as moving in water VS the air. You can move your arms and legs in air freely...wildy even. But you can't do that in water.) This resistance can be a beautiful thing for a speaker as it helps control the speaker cone's movement...helping with the accuracy.

 

Last thought...the wind blowing by the speakers and your ears also distorts the sounds coming from the speakers. The more wind, the less accurate the music sounds to your ears.

 

Bottom line? What does all this mean to us? Not much really....it simply means a 4 inch speaker, in a plastic compartment not designed for audio, being driven by an amp capable of a true 14 watts per channel is not going to produce very loud sounds and will distort at loudest settings needed for riding at 75mph.

 

So what can we do?

 

You can find a 4 inch speaker that has very rare earth magnets (think lots of power in smaller size) but they won't be very efficient...so they will need a larger amp to drive them to a decent volume level. That's the "SPL" Bob mentioned. SPL is sound pressure level...the amount of sound at a given distance. 90dB SPL @ 1 watt at 1 meter. That speaker will "appear" louder than one rated at 80dB. Almost twice as loud!

 

or..

 

You can find the most efficient 4 inch speaker and install that. That will give you the best volume...but probably more distortion at loud levels and they are more prone to break from to loud a music or noise "hit". The more expensive the speaker, the better it will probably handle the louder sounds and last. It's a trade-off....

 

or...

 

You can add an amp. Usually they take the speaker leads as input then drive them up more. But whatever noise you get from the original amp will go up as well...and these little after market amps are noisy and not efficient at all. Think lots more battery draw and heat, heat, heat! But they do make more volume!

 

Or...

 

Go buy a new Yamaha Star Venture with larger speakers, better environment and better amp. Grins!

 

For me.

I gave up thinking about trying to get decent sound from our 4 inch speakers. I plug in ear buds and my music is clean with no or little distortion. I still have road and wind noise to deal with, but that's the trade off for enjoying riding with the wind...

 

Hope this nonsense helps someone understand why we can't get great sounds at 75mph. For another simple explanation of this go here...

 

 

https://thehub.musiciansfriend.com/tech-tips/tech-tip-wattage-speaker-efficiency-amplifier-loudness

Edited September 26, 2018 by videoarizona
Spelling & add

[YamahaLarry]

I'll go one step further than Bob (btw, well said Bob)....and this will confuse even me! I'll keep it simple.

Or...

 

Go buy a new Yamaha Star Venture with larger speakers, better environment and better amp. Grins!

 

For me.

I gave up thinking about trying to get decent sound from our 4 inch speakers. I plug in ear buds and my music is clean with no or little distortion. I still have road and wind noise to deal with, but that's the trade off for enjoying riding with the wind...

 

Hope this nonsense helps someone understand why we can't get great sounds at 75mph. For another simple explanation of this go here...

 

 

https://thehub.musiciansfriend.com/tech-tips/tech-tip-wattage-speaker-efficiency-amplifier-loudness

 

I'm afraid the misses of 38 years would castrate me if I went out and purchased a brand new bike at this point of our lives.

 

Most all of that is way over my head. Ear buds are not an option for me most times, such as when I am leading bike rides (which is very often). I am using my in helmet headset (which has worse sound quality than the speakers) for CB communications with some of my road guards.

 

I am just wanting to be able to turn up the speakers a little louder than the factory speakers without the bass muffling so bad. Not looking for great bass though, cause I know i won't come out of a 4 inch speaker.

[videoarizona]

I'm afraid the misses of 38 years would castrate me if I went out and purchased a brand new bike at this point of our lives.

 

Most all of that is way over my head. Ear buds are not an option for me most times, such as when I am leading bike rides (which is very often). I am using my in helmet headset (which has worse sound quality than the speakers) for CB communications with some of my road guards.

 

I am just wanting to be able to turn up the speakers a little louder than the factory speakers without the bass muffling so bad. Not looking for great bass though, cause I know i won't come out of a 4 inch speaker.

 

I hear you. Get an adapter to add ear buds to your 5 pin. This is what I do. It's in line with the headset 5 pin cable. I can hear better and my headset system still works so I can use the mic to talk.

Edsets makes an expensive one ($65 ?) http://www.edsets.com/universal_adapter.php or check our member vendors area.... one of our guys makes a cord that plugs in.