I was almost back in the saddle...But my beast has no fire!!!!!!

[Captaineasy520]

Hi everyone,

I'll start with a brief update, and I will keep it brief.

We finally found a new place and moved everything in, only draw back is there is no garage, she'd or covered work space that I can park my old '84 under so I can work on her during the early morning or late afternoon hours. This Arizona desert heat gives no quarter from the heat to man or beast. If you don't have a bug lite or bug zapper it's even challenging working after the sun goes down because even a small head lamp draws every creature like a beacon. Every bug in the Sonora desert has a mission and I'm it. I've had one bug try to make a meal out of my eardrum, not to mention a rattle snake paired with a tarantula checking out my ability to remain very still and mouth a silent screen.

Welcome to Arizona where it is a "dry heat". Onward !!!!

 

Good news. I did receive a nice care package from CowPuc that contained coils, plug wires, caps, TCI unit and a wonderful fuse conversion to replace the old school one. And Dick, thank you for the multi tester. It works great and has been a good friend indeed.

I installed everything and have double checked and re checked every connection and wire I could find. I stripped all the plastic off the frame down to removing the head lite.

I HAVE NO FIRE TO ANY OF THE PLUGS.....

So far I have done the following. I have done the primary and secondary test at the coils, all came within specs, all the red and white wires at the coil connection read a solid 12.8 volts, the stator checks out and is not grounded out. I used the diagram I found relating to what the individual values should be at the connect plug ins going into the TCI box, again, all with in specs.

I connected a good spark plug on number plug wire and grounded it to the block. When I turned it over I got one little spark and nothing more. I'm beginning to think the rectifier/regulator is bad or possibly a combination of that and the stator could both be bad. I plan to replace both in a few days.

I checked the kill switch, it was good as was the ignition, I don't remember if I checked the kick stand switch or not but that will be done in a few minutes. The tip over switch checks out. So at this point I'm running low on options and knowledge and I could use some fresh input from you guys, even if it's just a brain fart I'll be glad to see where it takes me. And yes the battery is new and fully charged.

Thanks gentlemen, I look forward to hearing from you.2

[BlueSky]

Campers use colored lights at the camp site at night. Supposedly colored lights don't attract bugs.

[Captaineasy520]

We have a lot of those yellow lights ablaze here in the desert too, however, Tucson and the adjoining rural areas can't have street lights etc., because it hinders Kit Peak observatory. But even with the yellow trouble lights you still get a lot of critters.

[bongobobny]

For the kickstand switch, if you see anything more than one ohm or less that is quite possibly the problem! I had one that read 4 ohms and it was the problem. A quick test is to short out all 3 wires and see if you then have spark. A word of caution, doing this enables the bike to be started in gear which is dangerous! Make absolutely sure you are in neutral first. Of course, if the kickstand switch is bad the bike will still start in gear or neutral if the clutch is squeezed but will then die when you let the clutch out.

 

Is your neutral green light lit?? If not then your neutral/gear selector switch needs servicing.

 

There is a 3 pin connector halfway up the frame in the rear that carries the information from the timing coils that sometimes get corroded and will kill the bike. Test for timing coil resistance at the TCI connector to see if this is an issue.

 

We will gladly help you out with step by step troubleshooting of the ignition system if you like.

 

Until you actually get the bike running there is no real way to evaluate how well your charging system is, so get it running first! The bike WILL start even if the charging system is kaputz as long as the battery itself is fully charged. You should see 12.5 or better across the battery and when you hit the starter it should not drop much lower than 11 volts while the starter motor is turning over...

[snyper316]

When I was trying to diagnose I just removed the black and white wire terminal from the plug. To see if mine would fire up.

 

Sent from my LG-M255 using Tapatalk

[Captaineasy520]

Yes the green neutral light is on and I will check/look for the connector on the rear frame you are talking about, but, is it on the left or right side. I would assume it's on the left side as most of the ignition harness runs that way. I will also ground the three wires to the kick stand switch. I did find out that my son tried to plug in a tic from some other bike that had the same plug configuration as the venture TCI he added that it didn't seem to work....go figure. With that in mind, I'm wondering if he didn't fry the regulator or something else. I'm using a tci that Puc sent me which I assume is good. So I'll let you know what I find out. If you come up with any more ideas please let me know...Thanks again

Joe Davis

[Captaineasy520]

I did in fact remove the black and white wire from the connector and still had no fire. I checked the kill switch and got a close and open response when testing the switch itself. I'm still thinking it may be the regulator but I'm not real sure about that either. I'll keep at it until I find a cure as I'm no where near thinking about putting the old beast out to pasture...Thanks guys..

[cowpuc]

I did in fact remove the black and white wire from the connector and still had no fire. I checked the kill switch and got a close and open response when testing the switch itself. I'm still thinking it may be the regulator but I'm not real sure about that either. I'll keep at it until I find a cure as I'm no where near thinking about putting the old beast out to pasture...Thanks guys..

 

Yep,,, DONT EVER GIVE UP!!!

 

That TCI I mailed you came off a running scoot (my 1st Venture) but had been shelved for many many years.. That said,, we both know from experiencing what can happen when we assume (makes an a$$ out of U and me sound familiar?) so I dont think I would do that.. It would be great if someone else had a known CURRENT good one that they could loan you just to test the one I sent you against...

Another real possibility IMHO would be the trigger coils down on the flywheel... Not sure if their is a ohm test for them in the Service Manual or not.. Maybe one of the guru's like @Prairiehammer - @bongobobny or @Flyinfool would know.. I can do some diggin when I get back to my garage if one of these brainies dont chime in...

Keep us posted CaptN!!!!

[Captaineasy520]

Hi Puc,

Thanks for the come back.

I'm also no real sure if the TCI you sent me works or not, but I will assume (yeah, I know that old quote too) that it is good.

With that said, I also agree that the pick up coils could be the problem too, so I ordered and have received a new startor and rectifier, and a full set of much needed brake pads. If I can find some shade time and break away from my "honey do" list long enough to pull the side cover and do the install I'll see if it breaths new life into the ignition coils. My beast is stripped down to the frame, head light hanging down, I swear she's got a sad look and it's like she's begging me to hurry and find what's ailing her so I can get her dressed back up in that new paint job.

As I went out the door this morning I saw a note my wife had posted on the refrigerator......it said, " Dear Lord, please keep a watch over my husband, as I'm almost positive he's having a sorted affair with.....his......damn......motorcycle."

I had to go back in and give her a kiss cause I guess she had finally caught me......

I'll keep ya posted...

[Captaineasy520]

Ohhh. Alost forgot. I saw a test a guy was doing on his stator that looked like a possible test that could be done on a venture. He hooked up a test light to the pick up coil/coils, grounded the clip end of the tester then touched the pick up wire with the probe end while rocking the fly wheel back and forth to see if he had out put from that point. In his case he did. He proceeded to move up the harness and check the other related connections. It may be worth a try, I'll let you know what I come up with.

[bongobobny]

OK, once again, you do not even need a charging system hooked up to just start the bike!!! Quit wasting your time looking at them when they have absolutely NOTHING to do with the ignition system!!! As long as your battery is hooked up with a full charge and the bike cranks over easily you should get spark if the ignition system is working! Get the bike running and then we can evaluate the charging system.

 

Yes, there can very well be something wrong with the pickup coils, this was a somewhat common failure with the 1st Generation. This was that connector I mentioned earlier halfway up the frame that can sometimes get corroded. At the TCI connector on the side with 6 pins, not the side with 8 pins, look for the black, orange, grey, white and grey, and white and red wires. Using the black as the common for an ohmmeter, check the resistance to each of the other wires. each wire should read between 93.5 and 126.5 ohms. There are actually 4 coils with black being common to all.

 

Here's a link to the schematic from this site if you can read electrical diagrams.

 

https://www.venturerider.org/wiring/84-85%20Yamaha%20Venture%20Royale%20DL%20Wiring%20Diagram%20Rev%20C.pdf

 

Also, here is a link to the downloadable official Yamaha Service Manual from this site, follow the link inside this link...

 

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?3384-First-Gen-Service-Manuals

 

Good luck, wish I lived closer as I would be glad to help you get it running!!!

[Captaineasy520]

Hi bongobob,

Thanks for the advise and info. I did down load the service manual, the wiring schematic and also the schematic for the TCI. I went ahead and removed the stator this morning because I figured that if the original stator was still in the bike it could have developed a problem in the last 34 years. So far it looks like it has a few fried windings that I can see and there is one in particular that really stands out. Would it be possible for this to affect the firing of all four ignition coils.

Before it went down it was running on what sounded like three cylenders, then two and finally cranking over good and belching out a backfire.. soooo.

I will follow your advise as soon as I install the new stator and let you know where i stand after I check everything else out....wish me luck

[Captaineasy520]

Hi bongobob,

Thanks for the advise and info. I did down load the service manual, the wiring schematic and also the schematic for the TCI. I went ahead and removed the stator this morning because I figured that if the original stator was still in the bike it could have developed a problem in the last 34 years. So far it looks like it has a few fried windings that I can see and there is one in particular that really stands out. Would it be possible for this to affect the firing of all four ignition coils.

Before it went down it was running on what sounded like three cylenders, then two and finally cranking over good and belching out a backfire.. soooo.

I will follow your advise as soon as I install the new stator and let you know where i stand after I check everything else out....wish me luck

[cowpuc]

Hi bongobob,

Thanks for the advise and info. I did down load the service manual, the wiring schematic and also the schematic for the TCI. I went ahead and removed the stator this morning because I figured that if the original stator was still in the bike it could have developed a problem in the last 34 years. So far it looks like it has a few fried windings that I can see and there is one in particular that really stands out. Would it be possible for this to affect the firing of all four ignition coils.

Before it went down it was running on what sounded like three cylenders, then two and finally cranking over good and belching out a backfire.. soooo.

I will follow your advise as soon as I install the new stator and let you know where i stand after I check everything else out....wish me luck

 

I cant speak for Sir Bongo because he is one of our electrical guru's but I think what he is trying to say here CaptN is that, unlike a smaller bike with lesser amp load needs where the ignition coil is on the stator plate along with the supply going to the regulator/rectifier - our Ventures are "battery ignition" meaning their source for the ignition comes from the battery..

On our Venture stators there will be (3) white wires coming from the stator and no wires leading attached to the trigger coils. Those triggers and the total ignition system can be operated at full effeciency off a fully charged battery and the bike will start and run fine as long as the battery maintains a decent charge.. What you describe in the power loss, drog cylinders DOES sound very familiar to numerous stator loss situations I have encountered BUT - and its a HUGE but,,,, I did successfully cover many many miles with a completely gone stator just by hanging a fully charged car battery on the bike - I KNOW,, sounds NUTS but it does work = as long as the battery is charged your good to go!! On a scoot who's ignition electrical source is a coil(s) being energized by the flywheel (not talking impulse for setting up actual spark = that is what the trigger coils are for) this is NOT possible..

All that said CaptN,,, I agree with Bongo in that, if it were my bike, the first thing I would do is hook up a GOOD fully charged battery and roll the starter and see what happened...

Here is a short vid of one of our stator failures where we ran across Texas with a battery charger to keep the battery up to get to my brother Squidleys house for a repair (Texas Hero that Squid is!!)..

 

[Captaineasy520]

Ok Puc, I see what you are saying, in that case he load for the ignition coils comes directly from on a fully charged battery. I was thinking the load came from the stator thru the regulator to the TCI which fired the ignition coils. I seem to have trashed the K.I.S.S.(keep it simple stupid) methodology concerning "work smater, not harder".

So after I finish installing the new stator what should my plan of attack be by the numbers.

[Captaineasy520]

And by the way, I have a new battery that is fully charged. So I'm gonna start at the beginning (one more time) and I will record all the values for everything I test. If I miss anything I trust you guys will call my arrention to anything I over look or didn't get right..thanks

[Patch]

I've link a post we all worked on early summer, there's lots of basic information and procedures that can be completed with simple tools that lead us to a final conclusion. The test values are shown as well.

 

The important thing Captain is to not skip past both each test and/or the results. If any test fails then that should be the first repair and so on till each possible cause is ruled on..

 

Good hunting

 

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?137076-Intermittent-Misfire-on-All-Cylinders

[bongobobny]

OK, here we go now!

 

The stator is called a stator because it remains stationary, it does not move!! What does move is the Rotor, which is, in reality, a big magnet that is attached to the end of the crankshaft. As this magnet rotates around the stator and passes each winding a rising and falling voltage is generated. This is an AC voltage that must be converted to a DC voltage to recharge the battery. That is the job of the rectifier part of tour Regulator/Rectifier.

 

Now, let's go back to the rotating magnet or rotator and talk about the pickup coils. Like the stator, these pickup coils are stationary, they do not move!! What does move is the rotor, and as the magnet moves it also generates a voltage across the pickup coils! There are actually 4 coils total, one coil for each cylinder. There are two coils in each housing and two housings.

 

Notice neither the stator or the pickup coils move, they are stationary!! Therefore there ain't no way in hell the stator is going to interact with the pickup coils! It's all coming from the rotor, which is, as I stated, just a big rotating magnet!

 

What you might as well do while you have the stator cover off is to ascertain that for some really odd reason the rotor hasn't lost its magnetism and that the pickup coils haven't come undone from their mounting position. Other than a UFO or something in close proximity of the bike I doubt the magnet has lost its charge, but I do know in some rare instances the mounting screws for the pickup coils may have come loose and the pickup coils are just dangling in space...

 

Once you get to the point of checking things out again, please ascertain that there are 12 volts on each of the coil primaries while the bike is cranking over. The voltage may drop somewhat due to the starter motor dragging the battery down while it is turning over but as long as there is still at least 10 volts or more that should be enough. I believe it is a red/white wire that is common to the coil primary plus terminal, I'm too lazy to look at the schematic this AM to confirm the wire color... Anyway check this out and get back to me. If that 12 volts is not there, the first thing to look at is the ignition fuse and the issue may not be the fuse itself but the fuse holder as this is a very common problem with the MK1 Venture. The usual fix is to replace the glass fuses and fuse holders with blade type fuses and fuse holder. Skydoc_17 sells a nice kit designed specifically for this.

[Patch]

A couple of other tips for you Captain.

 

Because for the moment you are not trying to start the bike rather test just off the starter, keep the pugs out but hooked up and grounded.

 

You can do this testing with the carbs off/ or the throttle pinned wide open/ with no gas to the carbs (disconnect the pump).

RPM from the starter will be much higher and draws less current from the battery while per longing starter life!

 

At some point you should do a compression test before tuning, so keep your eyes and ears open to, the loan of a tester.

[Captaineasy520]

I swaped the old stator for a new one, as I cracked open the side cover I remember someone (Puc) saying the old first gen's had problems frying and we're later converted to oil bath, grabbed a pan just in time. Yep there is a bunch of oil in there.

I finished the install but needed to head into town for fresh oil, but I couldn't resist the urge to crank her over one quick time. I knew the carbs were dry and the chances of her actually starting we're zero. I put a spare plug in the #1 wire and grounded it. One quick turn of the key and bright blue spark jumped from plug to block. I did a little dance.

I got the oil but mother nature stopped my forward motion with a thunderstorm. I've got a list of things from Bongobob and Puc that need to be checked out before I get ahead of myself cause I want to make sure everything is done right and is right. Thanks again guys for your guidance.

So, if it stops raining I'll be out there yet again tonight trying to get it right and get it finished cause I sure do need to go for a very long ride.

[Captaineasy520]

Thanks Steve,

You have a good idea with pulling the plugs to save the starter life. And I will also do a compression check on all four cylinders. I'll get back to everyone as soon as I run these other checks and test and see what we come up with.

I've come to the conclusion that everyone loves these lovely beast because you sure as hell earn your stripes when you own one, I say this with pride not regret....

[cowpuc]

I swaped the old stator for a new one, as I cracked open the side cover I remember someone (Puc) saying the old first gen's had problems frying and we're later converted to oil bath, grabbed a pan just in time. Yep there is a bunch of oil in there.

I finished the install but needed to head into town for fresh oil, but I couldn't resist the urge to crank her over one quick time. I knew the carbs were dry and the chances of her actually starting we're zero. I put a spare plug in the #1 wire and grounded it. One quick turn of the key and bright blue spark jumped from plug to block. I did a little dance.

I got the oil but mother nature stopped my forward motion with a thunderstorm. I've got a list of things from Bongobob and Puc that need to be checked out before I get ahead of myself cause I want to make sure everything is done right and is right. Thanks again guys for your guidance.

So, if it stops raining I'll be out there yet again tonight trying to get it right and get it finished cause I sure do need to go for a very long ride.

 

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!

 

:dancefool::dancefool::dancefool::dancefool::dancefool::dancefool::dancefool::dancefool:

 

If it were mine and knowing how long it's been down - I would make a real oil mess,, I would pull the plugs as Steve suggested and, with the stator cover off and fresh oil in her case - I would put a drill motor on that rotor/crank bolt and spin it (I believe that would be counter clockwise) fast enough to pre-lube the motor off her oil pump.. I know this will sound nuts (my idea's usually do) but I have seem/heard of more than one time dried motor smudge cam journals from starting them dry. I always do this when bringing an engine back to life that has not been ran in a few years,,,,,,,, probably just cause I am cheap/lazy and prefer not to have rebuild if I dont have to . It is important to heed Steve's advice and make sure you ground all the plugs if your gonna use the starter to spin it for any reason with the plugs out... I have a hunch it wouldnt do the ignition system any good to not ground them.. Also a REALLY good idea to either dump a teaspoon of oil/mystery oil in each pot before spinning her. Fogging Oil would work too.. No sense in having those rings remove any accumulated slight rusting in the bores without lube to help them..

 

 

:clap2::clap2::clap2::dancefool::dancefool::dancefool::dancefool:

 

CaptN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cowpuc]

By the way CaptN,, might not be a bad idea to make sure your putting together an updated lube system for the stator before you button her up.. There should be a little wire protruding from the oil orfice (hole) in the bolt on the end of crank and there also should be a splash plate for the center area of the stator.. I cant remember if it attaches to the stator itself or if it is attached to the cover that the stator mounts to,, I do that update splash plate sat on the cover side of the stator (I know,, I'm a dork) but regardless,, it is VERY important that you make sure that update is complete (so you dont fry another stator)...

[Captaineasy520]

The rain has stopped, the sun is out, so I went out and topped off the oil after changing the stator, and went ahead and put a different regulator/rectifier in place of the very old one.

As instructed I pulled all four plugs and grounded them to the block, turned the key and hit the starter...and guess what.... Huston, I'm glad to report we have fire to all four plugs (did a little victory dance).

I'm still going to go thru the entire system one more time just to make sure everything is operational.

Bongobob, I not sure what to think as far as the stator swap is concerned. What I do know is that as soon as put the new one in I immediately had fire to all four plugs, could it be that messing with all those connectors multiple times may have somehow cleared up an unknown issue in the electrical system. At this point I'm not real sure.

Since I've yet to fire the beast up I won't know for hat other problems are in store for me. But with the help, guidance and support I got from our members I am confident I can solve most or all of pitfalls that may come my way.

I'm not sure how strong the spark is because I did the check in the day light with little shade. However it was bright enough to be seen coming from all four plugs do I would think that is a plus..

I would like to hear what you think my next tasks should be. I do plan on doing the compression check as soon as I'm able. So I await your opinions and ideas...Thanks again everyone. I'm going to do one final check, prime the carbs and try to wake up my sleeping beast...

[bongobobny]

Yayyyyy!!!

 

 

Most likely reseating the connectors, especially the one for the pickup coils was the answer as corrosion is the enemy and reseating can clean them up!!