Backfire

[wrscomncents]

Well you have a plan good! But before swap that plug cause that would really save a lot of work just in case.

 

Easy to find

 

Okay I will. I wish I could just swap it out but in order to remove that plug I have to remove the motor mount which means I have to remove the tank. But I will try swapping it out and firing it up before I start pulling everything else apart. Just to be sure.

[wrscomncents]

Alright guys I've picked a lot of brains here and gotten a lot of great input. Now its time for me to put it to use. I'm going to pull the bike apart this weekend and see what I can find. Thanks to everyone for all the advise. I'll let you all know what happens when I figure it out. Thanks again.

[Sylvester]

Sylvester

 

I will check that out. Were you getting a backfire. I have lightly blown air into the carb to check the slide movement and all appeared to be working fine but it can't hurt to check.

 

Yes very loud backfire. Just #4 , fixed leak and all is well with the world.

 

[wrscomncents]

What state are you in? I bought Morgan carbtune carb sync and colortune plug. It would be interesting to see inside that cylinder.

 

Sent from my LG-M255 using Tapatalk

 

Fogging is just a preventative extra we do when storing an engine. In more extreme situations such as stuck rings we try to free them by soaking the cylinder/jug with a chem that will penetrate the carbon binding the ring which is in fact a spring stuck firmly to what is referred to as the ring landing

 

When we have a whatever that causes a compression loss we generate way too much carbon, just like a healthy engine will if the jets are to large or we choose to run to rich a mix/ say like running on the choke too long!

 

Important to note that 10:1 cost more to build. And what we get in return is something closer to stoichio all the while using less fuel or smaller jets, (we can of course choose larger) yet still extracting sufficient heat energy which then is measured in expansion. By knowing the stroke design can choose how much ignition, heat expansion will be at the BTC which is then tossed out with the remaining ignition or afterburn. Why is having to much unused energy at BTC important? Easy, no. 1 power stroke compresses no. 2 and so on.. If we choose to enlarge the jets then, our aim is for more punch at a given range but we sacrifice efficiency in the process.

 

Because of the exhaust system on these bikes they also cheat the scavenge effect so you have different jet sizing which is quite confusing. It is in a real sense compensating for the volume imbalance front and rear..

 

Now aren't you glad you asked;)

 

To do it right, the carbs need to be stripped and then soaked in carb cleaner. There are lots of passages in these carbs.

 

I have the CD mentioned. The name in the return address on the CDs is:

 

Dean Dietrick from DEPERE WI

 

His email is in this thread

 

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?119186-Bought-Carb-Rebuild-Video-by-Damon-Ferraiuolo

 

Steven G. I agree with your analysis of a possibility of stuck rings. We could also have a problem with carbon around the valve heads and maybe the valve stems. I would encourage the OP to follow your instructions of fogging of the engine. I have never tried Deep Creep to free rings. I usually use Yamaha's ring free or Amsoil's PI. Have had good luck with both of these.

The op should do this after he gets his carbs clean.

 

Yes very loud backfire. Just #4 , fixed leak and all is well with the world.

 

 

I wanted to give you guys a heads up on what is going on with my bike. I usually only get a day or two a week to work on it so it has taken a while to get it all done and back together. So the good news is it is back up and running with no backfire. The bad news is I'm not sure what the cause was because I did several things to it. First off I pulled the carbs again and checked them thoroughly. I really can't say that I saw anything wrong with them but who knows there may have been something small that I did not see and removed when re cleaning. I also double checked all the diaphragms and found no problem with them. I did find a screw on the number four diaphragm that was slightly stripped towards the end of the screw so it is possible that there may have been air leaking at that point like Sylvester suggested. I changed that screw to a slightly longer screw with a lock washer and it is now tight. So not sure what exactly was the cause but I'm happy as hell that it is fixed.

 

The other thing that I did to the bike while I had the carbs off was to do the fogging procedure described by Steven G. I don't have the link to his post but if anyone wants to do this I'm sure you could find it here. I followed his instructions exactly and I have to say it made a big difference in the compression on this bike. I had taken readings before I had the bike apart and I listed them in a previous post but I will list them again for comparison.

 

Before fogging compression was #1 210 #2 200 #3 150 #4 190 After fogging compression was #1 215 #2 215 #3 180 #4 210.

 

As you can see the fogging really helped. The #3 cylinder is still low and I will probably perform this procedure again at the end of the season. At least to the #3 cylinder.

 

I appreciate all the help and suggestions from everyone here. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Maybe I can help someone at some point also. I'm starting to learn a lot about this bike since I've had to basically tear it apart and rebuild it. Thanks again.

[wrscomncents]

One other thing that I forgot to mention is I removed the pipe on the right side and thoroughly checked it for leaks. I thought that I had a leak towards the front of the pipe but I checked everything and could fin no leaks.

[Patch]

I wanted to give you guys a heads up on what is going on with my bike. I usually only get a day or two a week to work on it so it has taken a while to get it all done and back together. So the good news is it is back up and running with no backfire. The bad news is I'm not sure what the cause was because I did several things to it. First off I pulled the carbs again and checked them thoroughly. I really can't say that I saw anything wrong with them but who knows there may have been something small that I did not see and removed when re cleaning. I also double checked all the diaphragms and found no problem with them. I did find a screw on the number four diaphragm that was slightly stripped towards the end of the screw so it is possible that there may have been air leaking at that point like Sylvester suggested. I changed that screw to a slightly longer screw with a lock washer and it is now tight. So not sure what exactly was the cause but I'm happy as hell that it is fixed.

 

The other thing that I did to the bike while I had the carbs off was to do the fogging procedure described by Steven G. I don't have the link to his post but if anyone wants to do this I'm sure you could find it here. I followed his instructions exactly and I have to say it made a big difference in the compression on this bike. I had taken readings before I had the bike apart and I listed them in a previous post but I will list them again for comparison.

 

Before fogging compression was #1 210 #2 200 #3 150 #4 190 After fogging compression was #1 215 #2 215 #3 180 #4 210.

 

As you can see the fogging really helped. The #3 cylinder is still low and I will probably perform this procedure again at the end of the season. At least to the #3 cylinder.

 

I appreciate all the help and suggestions from everyone here. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Maybe I can help someone at some point also. I'm starting to learn a lot about this bike since I've had to basically tear it apart and rebuild it. Thanks again.

 

Well John some guys are just fun to work with over the net. Always nice when a fellow asks for help then runs with it!

 

I have have had engines like this that are stubborn for the rings to release often. The good news is that Deep Creep will continue to work under the high temperatures, likely next time you measure those jugs they will all be a bit higher. I really don't see any reason for them to be low within that mileage. The other long term benefit of catching it now is that the rings haven't likely had much opportunity to ware unevenly.... A win win

 

Have a safe season John

[sldunker]

Dilly, Dilly

[wrscomncents]

Well John some guys are just fun to work with over the net. Always nice when a fellow asks for help then runs with it!

 

I have have had engines like this that are stubborn for the rings to release often. The good news is that Deep Creep will continue to work under the high temperatures, likely next time you measure those jugs they will all be a bit higher. I really don't see any reason for them to be low within that mileage. The other long term benefit of catching it now is that the rings haven't likely had much opportunity to ware unevenly.... A win win

 

Have a safe season John

 

Steven, if you don't mind I would like to pick your brain just a bit more. Cylinders 1 and 2 are showing pretty close to the standard compression rating according to my manual. Cylinder 4 is very close. But as you can see cylinder 3 is pretty close to minimums according to the manual. The strange thing is cylinder 3 seemed to hold the deep creep more (longer) than the other three cylinders. Another words the deep creep seemed to drain from the 3 highest compression cylinders faster than the low compression cylinder. I found this odd. I would have thought that it would have been just the opposite. Any idea why this would occur? Also when I do this again at the end of the season would it be best to leave the deep creep in the cylinder for a longer period of time, say a week or more and just let it work its way into the rings? Thanks.

[Patch]

Steven, if you don't mind I would like to pick your brain just a bit more. Cylinders 1 and 2 are showing pretty close to the standard compression rating according to my manual. Cylinder 4 is very close. But as you can see cylinder 3 is pretty close to minimums according to the manual. The strange thing is cylinder 3 seemed to hold the deep creep more (longer) than the other three cylinders. Another words the deep creep seemed to drain from the 3 highest compression cylinders faster than the low compression cylinder. I found this odd. I would have thought that it would have been just the opposite. Any idea why this would occur? Also when I do this again at the end of the season would it be best to leave the deep creep in the cylinder for a longer period of time, say a week or more and just let it work its way into the rings? Thanks.

 

 

This is correct! The reason we want to free the rings/springs or what we want to free them from is that they are stuck in the ring land. It starts simply enough as one of the pictures show in the fogging post, dissimilar metals, sweating over time in an already carbon rich environment. At this point and after not running for a couple of seasons we say or call them "sticky" but because they are sticky they aren't springing or able to fully spring!

 

Now because the rings arn't locking nor are the mating 100% to the walls, the compression drops causing combustion heat loss, and higher carbon is a result of these cooler ignitions! So it escalates quickly from sticky to stuck.

 

When the piston compresses the volume of air/fuel the ring will by design but only if they are free to lock compression, which of course is accomplished by the pressures slipping down and to the rear of the ring land/ applying outward pressure at the back of the ring & downward pressure to seat on the land by piston travel/ which is another engine spec. This is covered under engine rebuilding.

 

So what you want to see is the Deep Creep moving past the rings to the bottom of the crankcase as a measure of improvement.

 

You see how 3 was slow, well likely at first it was only seeping through the ring ends which again is a spec! Also the landings are plugged up with carbon as mentioned above... And is why I suggest you engage 1st gear and jerk the rear wheel to add some shock value!

 

If you park it during say this week, then you can add a little more and not worry about it's level. If pulling the plug is a big deal then spray down that carb a 2 second shout and let it seep and jerk the wheel once a day or what ever works. See we know we are nearly there on 3 this means that it is now seeping past, and if you have run the bike since, then you have put some real pressure on that piston and rings, and that pressure at those temps are very effective.

 

Those number will still climb but yes if it were me I would give it one small shot of 2 seconds again even though I know you mentioned its a hard plug to pull. Saving the shape of the ring is important and as is the extra combustion heat 40 lbs up.

 

If you go through the carb then please TAG the ignition switch to prevent accidental starting.

[Patch]

I may add that quick deceleration in second and third will usually cause the ring to oscillate or dance a little, this will usually cause any solid chunks of carbon to fracture.

[wrscomncents]

This is correct! The reason we want to free the rings/springs or what we want to free them from is that they are stuck in the ring land. It starts simply enough as one of the pictures show in the fogging post, dissimilar metals, sweating over time in an already carbon rich environment. At this point and after not running for a couple of seasons we say or call them "sticky" but because they are sticky they aren't springing or able to fully spring!

 

Now because the rings arn't locking nor are the mating 100% to the walls, the compression drops causing combustion heat loss, and higher carbon is a result of these cooler ignitions! So it escalates quickly from sticky to stuck.

 

When the piston compresses the volume of air/fuel the ring will by design but only if they are free to lock compression, which of course is accomplished by the pressures slipping down and to the rear of the ring land/ applying outward pressure at the back of the ring & downward pressure to seat on the land by piston travel/ which is another engine spec. This is covered under engine rebuilding.

 

So what you want to see is the Deep Creep moving past the rings to the bottom of the crankcase as a measure of improvement.

 

You see how 3 was slow, well likely at first it was only seeping through the ring ends which again is a spec! Also the landings are plugged up with carbon as mentioned above... And is why I suggest you engage 1st gear and jerk the rear wheel to add some shock value!

 

If you park it during say this week, then you can add a little more and not worry about it's level. If pulling the plug is a big deal then spray down that carb a 2 second shout and let it seep and jerk the wheel once a day or what ever works. See we know we are nearly there on 3 this means that it is now seeping past, and if you have run the bike since, then you have put some real pressure on that piston and rings, and that pressure at those temps are very effective.

 

Those number will still climb but yes if it were me I would give it one small shot of 2 seconds again even though I know you mentioned its a hard plug to pull. Saving the shape of the ring is important and as is the extra combustion heat 40 lbs up.

 

If you go through the carb then please TAG the ignition switch to prevent accidental starting.

 

Okay all that makes sense. The number 3 cylinder is fairly easy to get at. It's the number 4 that's difficult. I may try that if I know I won't be riding for a few days. I know that you stated not to rotate the engine with fluid above the piston while the plugs are in the heads but I am assuming that a 2 second shot would not harm anything. Thanks again

[Patch]

Okay all that makes sense. The number 3 cylinder is fairly easy to get at. It's the number 4 that's difficult. I may try that if I know I won't be riding for a few days. I know that you stated not to rotate the engine with fluid above the piston while the plugs are in the heads but I am assuming that a 2 second shot would not harm anything. Thanks again

 

That still applies! I would expect that the fluid will drain past over a couple of days! Also that cylinder will be damp so will the plug but because the others aren't she will still fire up and that no. 3 will start to fire being driven by the other running jugs!

 

I did have one question for you John, any chance you noticed the throttle plate positions, after you removed them? In particular if they looked to be more open or more closed one from another? I ask because of the number 3 being low the syncing would have to compensate; just as it will again once the jug hits its higher compression level.

[wrscomncents]

That still applies! I would expect that the fluid will drain past over a couple of days! Also that cylinder will be damp so will the plug but because the others aren't she will still fire up and that no. 3 will start to fire being driven by the other running jugs!

 

I did have one question for you John, any chance you noticed the throttle plate positions, after you removed them? In particular if they looked to be more open or more closed one from another? I ask because of the number 3 being low the syncing would have to compensate; just as it will again once the jug hits its higher compression level.

 

No. All throttle positions were almost identical. I did put my carbtune back on after getting her running and it was very close. Minor adjustments.

[Patch]

Now that does surprise me. hmm

 

Well something for me to think on.

 

Thanks for sharing