Harley Davidson announces new models: Possibly a liquid cooled V4?

[luvmy40]

So, HD announced some new models today. A 1250cc, 60 deg. liquid cooled V Twin "adventurer" KTM style ATC called the Pan America. A 975cc, liquid cooled V Twin, naked street fighter and a scramble/flat tacker with the same Liquid cooled 60 deg. V Twin. Along with a few electric cycles, including the Live Wire.

 

One YouTube commentator(angry muskrat or wild hedgehog, or something) voiced the thought that maybe HD would now bring out something with a V4, liquid cooled engine in one of those models as they have a patent for the engine already.

 

How bizarre would it be if the 2018 Venture is an air cooled V Twin and HD puts out a liquid cooled V 4 sport bike in 2020?

[RandyR]

I'd like to see HD survive as a top tier motorcycle maker. So I hope it works for them.

 

The Vrod is a good sport bike imo. And the more recent Street 500 and 750 are competive in their class. I came very close to buying a Street 750 recently.

 

And as we all know, the Harley Nova project in the late 1970's was close to what the Venture became.

 

[BlueSky]

As I remember Harley had to get Porsche to design the high hp V-twin engine in the Vrod. I wonder who they would get to design a V4? Maybe Yamaha since Yamaha seems to be determined to abandon all the V4s.

[RandyR]

As I remember Harley had to get Porsche to design the high hp V-twin engine in the Vrod. I wonder who they would get to design a V4? Maybe Yamaha since Yamaha seems to be determined to abandon all the V4s.

 

Actually, I've read rumors that HD sold the V4 NOVA engine to Yamaha after the management buy out from AMF.

[BlueSky]

So, I googled harley nova engine and read that Porsche developed the engine. I can't find out who if anyone they sold the design to.

[CaseyJ955]

Remember how dark things got before they started using elec start? Change and adaptability have not been strong suits of HD, can they jump right in with competitive new models? Triumph did it when production was restarted in Hinkley. They hit the ground running with some excellent machines right from the start (restart), so we know it can be done, I bought one and it turned out to be the best ballanced and most reliable bike I have ever owned. Triumph reinvented themselves from the ground up, albeit under different circumstances, the results were great. Is HD reinventing, or attempting to placate the buying public? Im not sure yet but I remain apprehensive given their history.

 

Although the street fighter looks like a giant barrel-chested sperm to me I do like the dual sport concept. If I were a potental buyer my first concern would be how they plan to bring the first truly new models (since the Vrod) to market at a competitive price without huge chunks of it coming from China. I hope they do this right and make something to bring them safely into the future as a mfr of world class bikes.

[CaseyJ955]

So, I googled harley nova engine and read that Porsche developed the engine. I can't find out who if anyone they sold the design to.

 

The HD Nova goes back in time, never made production, died as a concept. Im not sure if they had a prototype or not. The Porsche designed engine is the one in the Vrod. Actually joint between Porsche and HD, I believe HD has exclusive rights to the Vrod twin. IMHO they should do something with it other than stick it into a Vrod. Its a darn fine twin from what I hear but I have huge bias as a Porsche fan.

[RandyR]

So, I googled harley nova engine and read that Porsche developed the engine. I can't find out who if anyone they sold the design to.

 

 

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2016/09/19/harley-davidsons-project-nova-look-might/

 

Thats new information to me. I was aware of Nova, but not that Porsche was involved, like they were for the Vrod.

 

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2016/09/19/harley-davidsons-project-nova-look-might/

 

Remember how dark things got before they started using elec start? Change and adaptability have not been strong suits of HD, can they jump right in with competitive new models? Triumph did it when production was restarted in Hinkley. They hit the ground running with some excellent machines right from the start (restart), so we know it can be done, I bought one and it turned out to be the best ballanced and most reliable bike I have ever owned. Triumph reinvented themselves from the ground up, albeit under different circumstances, the results were great. ....

 

Agreed. I have one of the Hinckley built Triumphs, a 2001 Triumph Thunderbird. Sadly, I've let it sit for the last 10 years needing work to get it back on the road.

 

From better days....

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by RandyR

[CaseyJ955]

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2016/09/19/harley-davidsons-project-nova-look-might/

 

Thats new information to me. I was aware of Nova, but not that Porsche was involved, like they were for the Vrod.

 

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2016/09/19/harley-davidsons-project-nova-look-might/

 

 

 

Agreed. I have one of the Hinckley built Triumphs, a 2001 Triumph Thunderbird. Sadly, I've let it sit for the last 10 years needing work to get it back on the road.

 

From better days....

 

https://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=113904

 

I stand corrected, I was unaware that Porsche had any input on the Nova project. I only know they were a major part of the Vrod mill years later. Cool info, thanks for putting it up there.

 

I bought a brand new cherry red 2000 Triumph Sprint ST, got the factory hard bags too. I put about 80k on the bike before I decided to put a Daytona motor in, never finished, got hurt and traded her off. I have always regretted that. I have never experienced such perfectly maped EFI before or since. The torque from idle to redline was just delicious. Avg 55mpg US. Oh, the tours and trips...Wow I miss her! I have been eyeballing a tuned/cammed Rocket III for sale locally... Its hard not to love the mighty triple.

 

 

HD has their work cut out for them if they plan to be truly competitive with mfrs like T, BMW, KTM or the big Japanese four. Even Polaris has them in a corner. What happens next will probably make or break HD.

[BlueSky]

Futher googling reveals more about the nova:

 

"Harley got so far down the line as to have built 30 engines, 12 complete bikes and the die-cast tooling for the production crankcases. .."

[luvmy40]

I just watched a youtube vid from Blockhead with a couple of the HD "Interns". They didn't have a lot to add but did verify that the liquid cooled V Twin engine in the new models is a completely new design and not the V Rod engine.

 

They also stated that, while not given any concrete or exact numbers, the prices would be from "entry level" to "premium" on the various packages for each new model.

[djh3]

Had an acquaintance that had a V-rod. He did some longer tours on it and was quite pleased with it. He told me if it would have been put in say an ultra or road glide frame he would have bought one of those. Last I knew he was on a Victory Vision a couple years back. He had put a windshield and some big soft bags on it. I think he said he put like 60k on it before trade. That Nova just looks kinda funny, but so did my mid 80's Suzuki GS with all the fairing and tour bags and trunk.

[RandyR]

One of my nephews has a Vrod. I'll guess it has well over 50,000 miles on it as he's had it 10 years now and has ridden it coast to coast and pretty much all over the US. He and I rode the Dragon together a few years ago (me on my RSTD).

 

He bought it while in the Marines and moved from station to station with him. He recently finished his 20 years, and still rides the Vrod. He rides hard, so I give the Vrod a plus for being a well built machine.

[Graywulf]

Now THAT could well have been a HD I'd have bought. The closest I've come to buying {very close} was the XR1200X, But I went for the Yamaha MT-01 instead.

I've ridden just about all of the models from the iron head sporty up to the V-rod, twin cam etc

[slowrollwv]

I like the looks of the Nova. It is a shame they didn't put it out. I would have bought it when I bought the GS1000 and that was the last bike that I have owned till the Venture I have now.

[Freebird]

It looks a lot like the '86 FXRD that I owned. Fairing and etc. is very similar. Of course the '86 was built after Harley retained ownership after AMF and I think it was about that time that they killed the V4 project. Looks like a lot of the styling carried over to the FXRD. I wish I had kept it. There weren't a lot of them made and it really was a good bike in spite of the Vtwin engine. I never had a moments trouble out of it. They made a couple of models but this was the fairly rare "Grand Touring" model.

 

 

[Graywulf]

Remember how dark things got before they started using elec start? Change and adaptability have not been strong suits of HD, can they jump right in with competitive new models? Triumph did it when production was restarted in Hinkley. They hit the ground running with some excellent machines right from the start (restart), so we know it can be done, I bought one and it turned out to be the best ballanced and most reliable bike I have ever owned. Triumph reinvented themselves from the ground up, albeit under different circumstances, the results were great. Is HD reinventing, or attempting to placate the buying public? Im not sure yet but I remain apprehensive given their history.

 

Although the street fighter looks like a giant barrel-chested sperm to me I do like the dual sport concept. If I were a potental buyer my first concern would be how they plan to bring the first truly new models (since the Vrod) to market at a competitive price without huge chunks of it coming from China. I hope they do this right and make something to bring them safely into the future as a mfr of world class bikes.

 

I think the big difference was/is Bloor was not 'indoctrinated' in the 'legacy' of Triumph. It was a long time before they finally released the Bonneville twins. I had a ZL1000 Kwaka when the first new Trumpy's were released in the UK, and was impressed when I rode a 1200. Actually very similar to an FJ1200 Yammy for performance. The Modular concept was the right design, at the right time for Triumph. They've only just got 'rid of' the HD 'death wobble' frame. New models and the V-rod being dropped is mostly being driven by Europe, and with signs of that 'union' falling apart, it may not be long until the european emission requirements are no longer a factor?

 

I just do not know {having observed the snobbery that goes on WITHIN HD owners towards Sporty's, V-rods and now the 'Indian made' models, if the 'weekend 1%er's' would be able to accept such a radical change?

[RandyR]

I keep reading the words here, 'Indian made models'. The 500/750 Street are made in Kansas City for the North American sales. Production for the Street is moving to the York, PA H-D plant

 

Kansas City employees produce the Softail®, Sportster® and Street™ families of motorcycles from fabrication and finishing through final assembly to include the liquid-cooled Revolution X™ powertrains for the Street motorcycles.

https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/about-us/visit-us/kanascitymo.html

 

[Graywulf]

I keep reading the words here, 'Indian made models'. The 500/750 Street are made in Kansas City for the North American sales. Production for the Street is moving to the York, PA H-D plant

 

Kansas City employees produce the Softail®, Sportster® and Street™ families of motorcycles from fabrication and finishing through final assembly to include the liquid-cooled Revolution X™ powertrains for the Street motorcycles.

https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/about-us/visit-us/kanascitymo.html

 

 

To clear this up fully:

 

 

All Street 750s and Street 500s for US and Canadian consumption will be built in the Harley-Davidson Vehicle and Powertrain Operations plant in Kansas City, Missouri, where there is a manufacturing line dedicated to producing the liquid-cooled Revolution X engine, a new 60-degree V-twin featuring chain-driven single overhead camshafts.

 

On the other hand, all Street 750s and Street 500s for India, Italy, Spain, and Portugal (the only other markets at this time), will be built in Bawal, which has been expanded to a full manufacturing plant (for the Street models only) and uses parts sourced from all over the world.

 

so the rest of the world gets Indian made/assembled bikes.

 

no longer potato - potato... chapati - chapati

[CaseyJ955]

I think the big difference was/is Bloor was not 'indoctrinated' in the 'legacy' of Triumph. It was a long time before they finally released the Bonneville twins. I had a ZL1000 Kwaka when the first new Trumpy's were released in the UK, and was impressed when I rode a 1200. Actually very similar to an FJ1200 Yammy for performance. The Modular concept was the right design, at the right time for Triumph. They've only just got 'rid of' the HD 'death wobble' frame. New models and the V-rod being dropped is mostly being driven by Europe, and with signs of that 'union' falling apart, it may not be long until the european emission requirements are no longer a factor?

 

I just do not know {having observed the snobbery that goes on WITHIN HD owners towards Sporty's, V-rods and now the 'Indian made' models, if the 'weekend 1%er's' would be able to accept such a radical change?

 

One thing I think I see is a lot more of the elitists and snobs are trading in the bikes for assistive devices. The "if it aint a Harley, it aint ****!" Crowd is dwindling pretty steadily. HD promised 50 new models in 5 years almost a year ago. By my math they have a little more than four years to bring these two concepts through R&D and to the showroom floor, then the additional 48 new models right behind it. I dont care what HD says, paint/bling schemes DO NOT constitute new models, nor does an improved existing model. Trim levels, sorry, still no. RK and Sportys are different models, just as the concepts appear to be. "New model" is not a subjective term in the automotive/motorsports industry. Imagine the arrogance it takes to make a promise like that with a straight face. What thinking adult did not laugh when reading that feature? They have a very narrow window here to attract younger buyers with new models. An OHC 8V liquid cooled, 60deg USA made vtwin would sure be a step in the right direction, but Ill believe it when I can test ride one.

 

I think they currently have four distinct models in total, I know they have more different model names but essentially four frames on which they are built, and two distinct engines (4 and 8 valve). Trim level is not synonymous with model. They are treading water now but when they are really circling the drain it wont be much of a mystery. I was not with HD for long at all before I was seduced by the delicious powerful economical Triumph triples, and now very unapologetically enjoying the fine offerings from Japan and Australia too.

 

I recall.the Triumph Daytona in the mid/late 90s, they had a 1200 that was written up as the fastest production bike at the time just after their restart. Pretty impressive IMHO. iI remember its resemblance to the FJ, which should be a compliment, the FJ was a very notable scoot. I saw a BRG Daytona 1200/4 displayed at a bike shop in Lynwood WA before I bought my new 2000. After ownership of a couple old Brit bikes and many many Brit cars I was stunned by how sorted, refined and appealing the Ts are. We'll add Hinkley Triumphs to Pink Floyd as some reasons to love our UK brothers haha. Can we send Piers Morgan back please in exchange for never mentioning Lucas again haha?

[RandyR]

Lucas = The Prince of Darkness.

 

I learned early on to replace Lucas coils in my Triumphs with a Suzuki coil which worked just fine and wasn't prone to dying when the temperature got above 90F. The coup d'gras for the old Triumph was when it would quit running everytime it rained. I guess in hind sight, I probably could have found where the water was getting in, but instead I went out and bought my first Yamaha, the XS1100.

 

There was a very nice, low mileage Triumph year 2000 Thunderbird cafe style bike sitting on a trailer with a forsale sign on it parked on the edge of town here when I came home yesterday. I had to stop and look at it. only 15k miles on it, and in vg condition. I wrote down the tele number on the sign. But, having just bought a Vulcan 900 2 months ago, I really don't need another ride.

[Graywulf]

I keep reading the words here, 'Indian made models'. The 500/750 Street are made in Kansas City for the North American sales. Production for the Street is moving to the York, PA H-D plant

 

Kansas City employees produce the Softail®, Sportster® and Street™ families of motorcycles from fabrication and finishing through final assembly to include the liquid-cooled Revolution X™ powertrains for the Street motorcycles.

https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/en/about-us/visit-us/kanascitymo.html

 

 

Yes, the USA get USA made ones, rest of the world get the ones made in India.

[Graywulf]

One thing I think I see is a lot more of the elitists and snobs are trading in the bikes for assistive devices. The "if it aint a Harley, it aint ****!" Crowd is dwindling pretty steadily. HD promised 50 new models in 5 years almost a year ago. By my math they have a little more than four years to bring these two concepts through R&D and to the showroom floor, then the additional 48 new models right behind it. I dont care what HD says, paint/bling schemes DO NOT constitute new models, nor does an improved existing model. Trim levels, sorry, still no. RK and Sportys are different models, just as the concepts appear to be. "New model" is not a subjective term in the automotive/motorsports industry. Imagine the arrogance it takes to make a promise like that with a straight face. What thinking adult did not laugh when reading that feature? They have a very narrow window here to attract younger buyers with new models. An OHC 8V liquid cooled, 60deg USA made vtwin would sure be a step in the right direction, but Ill believe it when I can test ride one.

 

I think they currently have four distinct models in total, I know they have more different model names but essentially four frames on which they are built, and two distinct engines (4 and 8 valve). Trim level is not synonymous with model. They are treading water now but when they are really circling the drain it wont be much of a mystery. I was not with HD for long at all before I was seduced by the delicious powerful economical Triumph triples, and now very unapologetically enjoying the fine offerings from Japan and Australia too.

 

I recall.the Triumph Daytona in the mid/late 90s, they had a 1200 that was written up as the fastest production bike at the time just after their restart. Pretty impressive IMHO. iI remember its resemblance to the FJ, which should be a compliment, the FJ was a very notable scoot. I saw a BRG Daytona 1200/4 displayed at a bike shop in Lynwood WA before I bought my new 2000. After ownership of a couple old Brit bikes and many many Brit cars I was stunned by how sorted, refined and appealing the Ts are. We'll add Hinkley Triumphs to Pink Floyd as some reasons to love our UK brothers haha. Can we send Piers Morgan back please in exchange for never mentioning Lucas again haha?

 

You've hit the nail on the head where HD is concerned IMO. They have hoodwinked the world for a few decades with how they trim up, restyle the same old bike and call it a 'new' model. Over here the 'if it aint HD, it's **** crowd' are still alive and kicking. I enjoy when told by a weekend warrior that HD are the best bikes in the world. When asked a direct "so how exactly is it better than my bike?" " because It's a Harley, and they are selling more bikes than anyone else" is the usual response type. They actually can give no mechanical reason that a HD is 'better'. It was amusing back in the mid 90's I bought one of the first 3 Guzzi Cali 1100's in NZ, brilliant bike for a cruiser. A few months later I came across a USA 'heavy duty' type magazine, who voted the Cali as the best HD "coz it out HD'd the HD's of the time".

I had two 'big' Trumpy's in my youth, Yes they were enjoyable in their own way, but then I went and got a Kwaka 500 H-1a. Nuff said

 

I rode a lot of the Evo's and Shovel's. I fully agree the Evo was a massive step in the right direction for HD. So was the V-rod engine, but sadly, as it also seems for the R3, the European emission requirements have killed it off. Triumph did an outstanding job of shaking off the parallel twin identifier, until such a time that it became a 'retro model' rather than the main focus. Although it seems that the twin is still a massive draw-card for many.

IF a motor design is a sound and 'got it right' one, there is no reason for it not to have a long production life. As you pointed out the FJ11/1200 was one of these. That motor is still in production in the XJR1300. The Guzzi is now the longest running production engine. The Venture V4 motor is another It seems, reliable, high mileage, pretty much bulletproof. IF HD can come up with a new/revised motor and have a range of different frames for different applications? Then possibly they can produce a range of new models. But like you, I'm not holding my breath.