Harley moving some production to Europe

[Kretz]

With any manufacturer, they get parts where ever they can that is economically the best deal. There are always components that are locally manufactured (or assembled from global parts). "Made in America" is confusing when you think of companies like GM and Ford. Is it still an American product if it is assembled in Mexico? Or Honda and Toyota - source 65%+ parts in North America (as per NAFTA) - are they Japanese cars or North American? Lot of gray areas.

 

Whether Harley is assembled in the U.S.A. or India...it is still a Harley. Most people want the brand name and image rather than looking into what percentage of parts are sourced in the U.S.A.. Same with Japanese cars. Ask someone where their Corolla was built and few would know that North American Corolla's come from Cambridge Ontario. They just see it as a Japanese car.

 

I don't disagree, all I'm saying is I think HD have traded on & pushed the "made in America" & that freewheeling image far more than any of the above companies that you mention.

[Flyinfool]

Since I live in Milwaukee the home of Harley this is top billing in every news report with scouring for every last bit of details. Harley is one of the biggest if not the biggest employer in Milwaukee. Everything they do is big news here and watched like a hawk.

 

There is a lot of misinformation floating around on this issue.

 

Even Harley admits that making bikes overseas to import into the USA is a non starter, it would be suicide and will never happen. But they do already have plants outside of the USA where they make bikes for sales to other countries, and are currently building more plants in other countries to supply the international market.

 

The Kansas city plant is not closing due to tariffs, it was already in the process of being closed with its production being moved to the York PA plant.

 

As one local expert put it, the tariffs will hurt Harley over the next 2-3 years, BUT may actually help Harley be more profitable down the road buy forcing their hand to move some manufacturing overseas where labor is cheaper.

 

I do not know if the made in USA sticker vs a made in Brazil sticker will have a big impact on Harley sales in Europe. I only say Brazil because it is the closest non USA plant to Europe.

 

All of the non USA plants are listed as "assembly" plants. Many of the parts (engine and drive line) used at these plants still will come from the USA.

 

Yes there will be jobs lost in the USA because of the tariffs. On the other hand there are some non USA companies that are looking to build manufacturing in the USA. Will it all be a wash? Will it turn out to be a good thing or a bad thing? Who knows? Short term it will be a bad thing for a lot of USA companies and consumers world wide. Cost of products to the end user will go up on both sides.

[BlueSky]

If you look at the tremendous trade deficit the USA has, it can not be allowed to continue if we want to have a country. Combine that with our tremendous annual budget deficit and the USA is in a heap of trouble. We are being defeated economically. Trying to level the playing field in trade is a necessary and possibly painful exercise but it has to be done. The budget deficit will be tackled too. Hopefully firing up our businesses and fixing the trade issues will help with the budget deficit. Hang on! It's going to be a wild ride!

[cowpuc]

Since I live in Milwaukee the home of Harley this is top billing in every news report with scouring for every last bit of details. Harley is one of the biggest if not the biggest employer in Milwaukee. Everything they do is big news here and watched like a hawk.

 

There is a lot of misinformation floating around on this issue.

 

Even Harley admits that making bikes overseas to import into the USA is a non starter, it would be suicide and will never happen. But they do already have plants outside of the USA where they make bikes for sales to other countries, and are currently building more plants in other countries to supply the international market.

 

The Kansas city plant is not closing due to tariffs, it was already in the process of being closed with its production being moved to the York PA plant.

 

As one local expert put it, the tariffs will hurt Harley over the next 2-3 years, BUT may actually help Harley be more profitable down the road buy forcing their hand to move some manufacturing overseas where labor is cheaper.

 

I do not know if the made in USA sticker vs a made in Brazil sticker will have a big impact on Harley sales in Europe. I only say Brazil because it is the closest non USA plant to Europe.

 

All of the non USA plants are listed as "assembly" plants. Many of the parts (engine and drive line) used at these plants still will come from the USA.

 

Yes there will be jobs lost in the USA because of the tariffs. On the other hand there are some non USA companies that are looking to build manufacturing in the USA. Will it all be a wash? Will it turn out to be a good thing or a bad thing? Who knows? Short term it will be a bad thing for a lot of USA companies and consumers world wide. Cost of products to the end user will go up on both sides.

 

:sign yeah that::sign yeah that:

 

I still think though that the answer to the whole situation = all countries wanting to participate in the global market place = NO tariffs by anyone and all subsidies in trade agreements should be done away with along with a closing of the door on stealing trade/design patents .. Without that happening and thereby leveling the playing field, is it really "free trade" or a "free market"?? Let the market place figure out by the purchasing that is done by the consumer decide who will and who won't survive and prosper but do so in an evironment where copy cat thieves and sell out artists who stuff their pockets with money received as kick backs on trade agreements are punished severely.

You ever watch "Shark Tank" Jeff? Back when that show first started and it was all the rage in the U.S., Tip and I were watching and I made the comment of "this is ridiculous" to which, of course she said "what?".. I told her that what America was coming all undone about (in a good + way,,, ratings for the show were thru the roof) was, IMHO,, something that was/is suppose to be a typical everyday happening in communities all across the U.S. = inventor's inventing and investors investing and it was disheartening to think that average everyday folks had forgotten that that is/was suppose to be an everyday happening.. The factor shown by the listening/watching audience of that show in a strange way (at least in my strange way of thinking) was telling to me of just how far away from the truly American way of life we have somehow drifted.

[XV1100SE]

...the answer to the whole situation = all countries wanting to participate in the global market place = NO tariffs by anyone and all subsidies in trade agreements should be done away with along with a closing of the door on stealing trade/design patents .. Without that happening and thereby leveling the playing field, is it really "free trade" or a "free market"?? Let the market place figure out by the purchasing that is done by the consumer decide who will and who won't survive and prosper but do so in an evironment where copy cat thieves and sell out artists who stuff their pockets with money received as kick backs on trade agreements are punished severely...

 

A good part of the cost of the product is labour cost though. Everyone competes on cost so even without tariffs and subsidies the manufacturers (even U.S. companies) will produce the product where they can do it the cheapest. If overall labour is cheaper in China for example....cheaper to build a factory (different building codes too) with cheap construction labour, cheap materials, cheap assembly labour....then companies will still make their product in China. Shipping costs are not large enough to equal the field.

 

It was said that if Apple brought production of the iPhones back to the U.S.A then the cost to consumers would almost double. Free trade yes....such as between Canada and the U.S. where labour rates and costs are closer (Canada is higher hourly pay, add to that taxes to support our health care system, etc)...but unless labour rates, material costs, even currency are the same....there will never be equality.

 

After China's rates go up, which is the next country (eg 3rd world) with lower costs that will welcome foreign investors and companies to produce goods to be sold in North America ? At one time it was Japan, then Taiwan, the Philippines, South Korea, now China. It is a moving target. Labour in North America isn't willing to cut their hourly pay in half or more in order to compete with foreign manufacturing because our expenses (housing costs, etc) require the higher hourly rate in order to survive. Takes two incomes per family just to survive. In China making $20 a day is enough. Here in North America that won't even buy a day's worth of food for a family.

[DanielM]

If you look at the tremendous trade deficit the USA has, it can not be allowed to continue if we want to have a country. Combine that with our tremendous annual budget deficit and the USA is in a heap of trouble. We are being defeated economically. Trying to level the playing field in trade is a necessary and possibly painful exercise but it has to be done. The budget deficit will be tackled too. Hopefully firing up our businesses and fixing the trade issues will help with the budget deficit. Hang on! It's going to be a wild ride!

Biting my tongue big time..... is politics a taboo subject?

 

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

[Patch]

Thanks Don for the offer! The sarcasm is really just a throwback to the 70's era when companies like AMF had little regard for employee heath and safety. Nor stood behind their brand names with much or any pride and, we the consumer just kept paying through the nose!

 

AMF was in part victim to their own greed. Metrics split the markets, the better long term purchased proved to be Metric cars and bikes! Who here remembers Ronald Reagan's summit with the Japan minister where Japan said "but the U.S. wasn't devastated by a nuclear bomb"Reagan then replied "well what about Detroit" words to that effect. An interesting and changing dynamics were about to take place.

 

So are we off topic? No we are not (my opinion) Lets take a peak at Germany where does there success stem from? 1st we know they as a people have had a difficult history to rebuild from. So how do they keep their economy going and why do so many older tradesmen say "I should have stayed in Germany"? Without their belief in their economy, also pride in what they manufacture they to would fall prey to the up and down cycles and, Germans would drift to better economies throughout the EU or N.America. Instead they invest in their youth training programs healthy life styles and continue to build and expand.

 

My opinion on Harley is they are miscalculating and undermining that which is, the Harley culture! Bang for buck we know because we ride- that they cannot compete with Metric; why, because they chose culture 1st: that is their customer experience.

 

It is true that Canadians view the U.S. as cousins, at least my generation. I don't always understand U.S. decision making nor do I understand our Canadian fed decision making especially as, I am an Albertan by choice! We recently found that many of our core companies packed up, parceled off and sold out. Wow who are we now? Easily answered, we are well trained trades and engineers of a diversity not easily found. We achieved this not through government but through individual and collective negotiations and we leveraged our skills!

 

Lets have no misunderstanding, we shared our resources, we grew our base, we traded skills for "reasonable" income. In return Corporate had to invest in our communities, provide a safe work environment and contribute to our cost of training and next gen development.

 

I think that Harley H.Q. is not doing this and, I'll go as far as saying that they will not be successful long term. They have tossed the pride and culture out again. Harley will likely just be another sticker just like AMF was before the great buyback and rebuild of the family name.

 

Just an opinion

Edited June 27, 2018 by Patch

[Mimurph]

Now watch.. We'll see the harley tax on the jap bikes again... Like in the 80s. Better buy yours now😉

[RandyR]

Interesting. I have been musing over getting a new car, and noticed that one model I was interested in, a KIA SUV was made in Georgia. I wonder if they are at the plant that Ford used to have near Atlanta?

 

btw, My Mercury Marquis was made in Canada, and I'd buy another new one if they were still made.

[DanielM]

If you look at the tremendous trade deficit the USA has, it can not be allowed to continue if we want to have a country. Combine that with our tremendous annual budget deficit and the USA is in a heap of trouble. We are being defeated economically. Trying to level the playing field in trade is a necessary and possibly painful exercise but it has to be done. The budget deficit will be tackled too. Hopefully firing up our businesses and fixing the trade issues will help with the budget deficit. Hang on! It's going to be a wild ride!

Can't bite my tongue any longer...

 

With harley, we are talking about the EU here.

 

When looked at objectively, trade between the USA and it's closest allies isn't horrible. Can always be tweaked for improvements, but historically all sides have followed established guidelines with intentions of finding win-win solutions.

 

Hell, the USA has a trade SURPLUS with Canada!

 

International trade is so incredibly complex that armchair football quarterbacks look like geniuses compared to laymen debating terrif strategies.

 

One strategy that could be helpful is to gain unified support with your closest allies to put maximum pressure on the truly bad actors not playing by the rules.

 

Another strategy is to take a large hammer and with no idea what you are doing, smash everything with everyone and go it alone. Guiding principle of this strategy seems to be that there is no such thing as win-win, therefore every deal must be I win, you lose.

 

Over time, those former allies acting in good faith will start to bypass the USA and form agreements amongst themselves.

 

This is a dangerous thread. Anyone want to set a line on when it will be locked down?

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

[Patch]

Can't bite my tongue any longer...

 

With harley, we are talking about the EU here.

 

When looked at objectively, trade between the USA and it's closest allies isn't horrible. Can always be tweaked for improvements, but historically all sides have followed established guidelines with intentions of finding win-win solutions.

 

Hell, the USA has a trade SURPLUS with Canada!

 

International trade is so incredibly complex that armchair football quarterbacks look like geniuses compared to laymen debating terrif strategies.

 

One strategy that could be helpful is to gain unified support with your closest allies to put maximum pressure on the truly bad actors not playing by the rules.

 

Another strategy is to take a large hammer and with no idea what you are doing, smash everything with everyone and go it alone. Guiding principle of this strategy seems to be that there is no such thing as win-win, therefore every deal must be I win, you lose.

 

Over time, those former allies acting in good faith will start to bypass the USA and form agreements amongst themselves.

 

This is a dangerous thread. Anyone want to set a line on when it will be locked down?

 

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

 

 

While your post is polite, I will state an opinion.

I think I see your frustration!? But you have drifted from the OP.

 

My friend we all have allies and relationships that can and will have bumps - speaking if we must in general terms.

 

People, not governments will eventually change minds and simply choose to get on with living life.

 

Lets stick to topic, and prove we can govern our thoughts and figure out how to express without following Harley into Nowhere's Ville..

 

Patch

[Flyinfool]

:sign yeah that::sign yeah that:

 

I still think though that the answer to the whole situation = all countries wanting to participate in the global market place = NO tariffs by anyone and all subsidies in trade agreements should be done away with along with a closing of the door on stealing trade/design patents .. Without that happening and thereby leveling the playing field, is it really "free trade" or a "free market"?? Let the market place figure out by the purchasing that is done by the consumer decide who will and who won't survive and prosper but do so in an evironment where copy cat thieves and sell out artists who stuff their pockets with money received as kick backs on trade agreements are punished severely.

You ever watch "Shark Tank" Jeff? Back when that show first started and it was all the rage in the U.S., Tip and I were watching and I made the comment of "this is ridiculous" to which, of course she said "what?".. I told her that what America was coming all undone about (in a good + way,,, ratings for the show were thru the roof) was, IMHO,, something that was/is suppose to be a typical everyday happening in communities all across the U.S. = inventor's inventing and investors investing and it was disheartening to think that average everyday folks had forgotten that that is/was suppose to be an everyday happening.. The factor shown by the listening/watching audience of that show in a strange way (at least in my strange way of thinking) was telling to me of just how far away from the truly American way of life we have somehow drifted.

 

While I completely agree with the answer being that everyone has no tariffs or subsidies, that aint gonna happen in my lifetime. There are enough players in the game that will never even consider working from a level playing field.

[Patch]

While I completely agree with the answer being that everyone has no tariffs or subsidies, that aint gonna happen in my lifetime. There are enough players in the game that will never even consider working from a level playing field.

 

Man has always, built, conquered, united and divided it's just what we are.

We will always feel a need to protect or be interpreted as protectionist when we stand by one or more issues in disagreement.

 

We have not ever been "all equal" rather only being equal when we find cause to be united!

 

I know - just an opinion

[Mimurph]

Now watch.. We'll see the harley tax on the jap bikes again... Like in the 80s. Better buy yours now😉

[BlueSky]

The steel and aluminum tariffs were imposed to bring back those industries that are considered critical to national defense supposedly.

 

While the idea of no tariffs anywhere is appealing theoretically, we might be at a disadvantage because there are a billion or more people in this world who will work for $4/hr or less. The unskilled in this country is out campaigning for $15/hr minimum. I'm no expert for sure, but some things sort of stand out. And being an old fart, I remember reading about all the tricks other countries have pulled to keep US goods from being sold in their countries while they sold their goods in the US. Japan has been a really bad actor at this. I think the EU, USA, Canada and other countries should gang up on China to make them tow the line. It won't happen because the mega corporations rule the world and they don't care about any country, just their profits.

[Patch]

The steel and aluminum tariffs were imposed to bring back those industries that are considered critical to national defense supposedly.

 

While the idea of no tariffs anywhere is appealing theoretically, we might be at a disadvantage because there are a billion or more people in this world who will work for $4/hr or less. The unskilled in this country is out campaigning for $15/hr minimum. I'm no expert for sure, but some things sort of stand out. And being an old fart, I remember reading about all the tricks other countries have pulled to keep US goods from being sold in their countries while they sold their goods in the US. Japan has been a really bad actor at this. I think the EU, USA, Canada and other countries should gang up on China to make them tow the line. It won't happen because the mega corporations rule the world and they don't care about any country, just their profits.

 

It's kind of difficult to pick the the best parts out of the above. In very plain American, the remanence of what so many of us - matured around and through in the final 20 of the 20th century. There are those.... We need to compete... We simply can not afford a decent wage... How many times have we watched CEO complain while asking for bails of money, longer work weeks for less pay.. Or we'll leave...

 

And is also why for me, I in the 50+ category despise the pretense of the stated reasons for Harley's move. Harley built using American muscle and financing. Now they sneak out under riding headlines in the hopes of not being held accountable to those that built and rebuilt the brand name, truly disgusting - my opinion.

 

They could have just as easily approached and said we will rebuild this city block - into a truly modern American manufacturing plant and "share" our newly developed markets profits: with the same people that helped us build the H.D. made in America brand.. And remain an American made experience, what a lack of brain power.

 

Never ceases to amaze, just how stupid money thinks average Joe is! I wish them a speedy - get the.... off the continent

 

Of course just an opinion

 

Patch

[DanielM]

Looks like the other American motorcycle company is considering a similar move.

 

"Minnesota-based Polaris acknowledged on Friday that it is considering moving some production of its Indian Motorcycles overseas amid concerns over new tariffs from Europe.

 

A spokeswoman for the company told The Associated Press that it could move some of its production to Poland from Iowa, but noted that "nothing is definitive."

 

"We're looking at a range of mitigation plans," the spokeswoman, Jess Rogers, told the AP. Polaris did not immediately respond to The Hill's request for comment."

 

 

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

[grubsie]

Here's the deal folks, Like it or not. This is a global market now. Far different than most of us old timers grew up with so it's a little hard for us to comprehend. This crap started long ago here in New England when the shoe shops , the staple of NE manufacturing all moved to the Philippines way back in the 60's/70's looking for cheaper labor. It all happened very quietly for years and now here we are 50+ years later wondering what the hell happened in the USA.

 

Bottom line: it all comes down to labor costs, not regulations, or taxes. Just labor! All product globally now goes out to the cheapest labor, be it China, the Philippines, Ecuador, or Chilie. Heck, even the Chinese are subcontracting labor to Cambodia and Thailand etc.

 

Like it or not, for manufacturing jobs to remain in or come back to the US, our labor costs are going to have to decrease to the levels around the world in order to compete which most likely not happen anytime soon. Ahh! but they will at some point when we have so many people looking for work that they will accept any work for any pay and it's just a matter of time here in the US.

 

But what the heck do I know.

[uncledj]

I read where some posters think this is a dangerous thread.....I don't see it.

This forum has accepted a variety of topics for discussion, which is what makes it interesting, and this thread doesn't strike me as being political at all.

We're simply discussing the pros / cons of trade tariffs.

 

Having said that; I've heard many experts over the years speak of how vital it is to encourage international trade, and I do believe that's true, but it does make me wonder....

 

Here on the North American Continent in general, and in the US in particular, we've been blessed with great resources, and we have the education / intelligence and inventive spirit to create great things....the workforce to build them....and the population to consume them.

It makes me ask why we can't build and buy all within our borders.

Before anyone gives me grief,...as I said....I'm sure that plan is flawed....I'm just not sure why.

Edited July 1, 2018 by uncledj

[Freebird]

There is just a lot of misinformation regarding this issue. Regardless of what you think of President Trump, this is a case where I absolutely don't believe that his recent tariffs had anything to do with Harley's decision. Here are two articles that explain it better than I can.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2017/07/18/harley-davidson-to-cut-u-s-manufacturing-jobs.html

 

https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/2017/09/12/labor-unions-end-partnership-agreement-harley-davidson/657877001/

 

The fact that Thailand enforces a 60% tariff on motorcycles imported from the USA is what led to this decision. These articles were from early to mid 2017 and reference the fact that Harley was building the new factory in Thailand as early as 2016. Long before the recent talk of tariffs and even before he became President.

[BlueSky]

Companies have to do what is necessary to stay in business. It's up to the government to make sure the businesses in the USA are getting a fair shake in international trade. If other countries are treating us unfairly the governments job is to do something about it. Why does Germany have a 20 something per cent tariff on cars from the USA while we have a 2% tariff on theirs? Something smells. I'm glad somebody is finally taking an interest in fixing our international trade. Now the USA car companies are complaining about possible tariffs on their cars being manufactured in China being exported to the USA. Sounds fair to me since China has enormous tariffs on goods from the USA. It's all being negotiated. We'll see what happens.

[cowpuc]

Companies have to do what is necessary to stay in business. It's up to the government to make sure the businesses in the USA are getting a fair shake in international trade. If other countries are treating us unfairly the governments job is to do something about it. Why does Germany have a 20 something per cent tariff on cars from the USA while we have a 2% tariff on theirs? Something smells. I'm glad somebody is finally taking an interest in fixing our international trade. Now the USA car companies are complaining about possible tariffs on their cars being manufactured in China being exported to the USA. Sounds fair to me since China has enormous tariffs on goods from the USA. It's all being negotiated. We'll see what happens.

 

:sign yeah that::sign yeah that::sign yeah that:

 

IMHO, I truly think that it has been so long since we have had leadership in America that actually cared about their homeland that the idea of negotiating fairness and a level playing field is shocking to current global players. At some point in time the imbalances in trade and even NATO payments/support has got to be brought to an equal and fair balance or the whole ship is going to sink.. Personally I am proud/glad to see the changes happening and even though consumers are going to be paying more in the short term,, in the long run - the world will be a much better and more stable place..

[NOHAWG]

Amen, brother!

[WildBill1]

There is just a lot of misinformation regarding this issue. Regardless of what you think of President Trump, this is a case where I absolutely don't believe that his recent tariffs had anything to do with Harley's decision. Here are two articles that explain it better than I can.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/news/2017/07/18/harley-davidson-to-cut-u-s-manufacturing-jobs.html

 

https://www.jsonline.com/story/money/2017/09/12/labor-unions-end-partnership-agreement-harley-davidson/657877001/

 

The fact that Thailand enforces a 60% tariff on motorcycles imported from the USA is what led to this decision. These articles were from early to mid 2017 and reference the fact that Harley was building the new factory in Thailand as early as 2016. Long before the recent talk of tariffs and even before he became President.

 

It's just Harley's way of making and keeping their company G R E A T!!!!!

[N3FOL]

I heard that Harley is about to close a plant somewhere in the US, as a result, operations will be moved to York, Pa...