Blu-dot break caliper question

[Motor]

Hello I'm excited to be a new member, i have 2 questions, i have a 89VR, for now im keeping my breaks linked-up, I've just rebuilt a pair of blu-dots I'm going to replace right front caliper, is it ok to use a blu-dot on the left front rear rotor, while breaks are still linked, or does that mess with proportioning and over breaking? i know the stock front left caliper has smaller pistons so not to over break and lock front wheel when using linked rear break.

 

Second question i took my front left blu-dot caliper and bolted it on the rear, it fit, is that ok? or is that too much rear break power and cause a rear lock-up.

Any advice is much appreciated Thanks and ride on.

[7 lakes]

Hello I'm excited to be a new member, i have 2 questions, i have a 89VR, for now im keeping my breaks linked-up, I've just rebuilt a pair of blu-dots I'm going to replace right front caliper, is it ok to use a blu-dot on the left front rear rotor, while breaks are still linked, or does that mess with proportioning and over breaking? i know the stock front left caliper has smaller pistons so not to over break and lock front wheel when using linked rear break.

 

Second question i took my front left blu-dot caliper and bolted it on the rear, it fit, is that ok? or is that too much rear break power and cause a rear lock-up.

Any advice is much appreciated Thanks and ride on.

 

Welcome.

 

The proportioning valve is calibrated and balanced for the stock piston sizes, if you change the piston size equally front and rear the proportioning valve will still function correctly, if you change them unequally it won't. The master cylinder bores are also sized for the caliper pistons, so larger pistons reduce the mechanical advantage of the masters. Small increases may not be that noticeable but larger ones will require more effort at the lever and negatively impact modulation and feel.

 

The proportioning valve and the caliper piston size aren't intended to prevent the front wheel from locking so much as they are to apply the correct proportion of front /rear braking without the skill level required to correctly modulate independent front and rear brakes, especially in a panic stop where over-braking the front and losing control or locking the rear and sliding out are pretty easy to do for most riders. Its the same system cars have used forever. Yamaha stated in the manual that the "exclusive benefit" (their words) to this system is that it requires "no skill" to operate, just like stepping on the brake pedal in a car. Personally I think the linked system has gotten a bad rap because of A) the amount of rubber hose in the stock system, B) the hydraulic anti-dives, C) slightly undersized calipers and D) hardly anyone maintains their hydraulics. I actually like the linked brakes but think that the combination of the above meant that the stock bike was under-braked for a two-up loaded touring bike. I think most folks here prefer to un-link the brakes.

 

Tim

[Motor]

Thanks Tim that's awesome I'll replace all three calipers with blu-dots and see how that feels for awhile. Then I'll try de-linking and try that out.

[garyS-NJ]

Welcome. [emoji481]

 

The proportioning valve is calibrated and balanced for the stock piston sizes, if you change the piston size equally front and rear the proportioning valve will still function correctly, if you change them unequally it won't. The master cylinder bores are also sized for the caliper pistons, so larger pistons reduce the mechanical advantage of the masters. Small increases may not be that noticeable but larger ones will require more effort at the lever and negatively impact modulation and feel.

 

The proportioning valve and the caliper piston size aren't intended to prevent the front wheel from locking so much as they are to apply the correct proportion of front /rear braking without the skill level required to correctly modulate independent front and rear brakes, especially in a panic stop where over-braking the front and losing control or locking the rear and sliding out are pretty easy to do for most riders. Its the same system cars have used forever. Yamaha stated in the manual that the "exclusive benefit" (their words) to this system is that it requires "no skill" to operate, just like stepping on the brake pedal in a car. Personally I think the linked system has gotten a bad rap because of A) the amount of rubber hose in the stock system, B) the hydraulic anti-dives, C) slightly undersized calipers and D) hardly anyone maintains their hydraulics. I actually like the linked brakes but think that the combination of the above meant that the stock bike was under-braked for a two-up loaded touring bike. I think most folks here prefer to un-link the brakes.

 

Tim

Tim got it right on here. I delinked my 84 because was such a pain to bleed, and the brakes sucked, and I want more control on grass, dirt, gravel... And my blue dots work well with an '86 master.

Is there a consensus on best front master to run with blue dots? And will one of them pinch my rear? I have an extra set and my rear brakes are sucking. It felt like wood after delinking but now I have to stand on them to skid and its not spongy.. Like theres oil on the pads.

 

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[7 lakes]

Tim got it right on here. I delinked my 84 because was such a pain to bleed, and the brakes sucked, and I want more control on grass, dirt, gravel... And my blue dots work well with an '86 master.

Is there a consensus on best front master to run with blue dots? And will one of them pinch my rear? I have an extra set and my rear brakes are sucking. It felt like wood after delinking but now I have to stand on them to skid and its not spongy.. Like theres oil on the pads.

 

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

 

The diameter of the master cylinder bore needs to increase proportionately to the caliper bore in order to maintain the same hydraulic advantage, in other words if the caliper bore is increased by 20% the master bore size needs to be increased by 20% or you lose braking power. As far as the best master for your calipers I'll defer you to those here that have made the swap, I have the stock calipers on mine and plan to leave them.

 

I'm curious about why you have to stand on your rear brake, what is your rear setup now, is there just one caliper on the rear master? Stock caliper? Did you remove the proportioning valve? What kind of hose to the rear? How old are the pads and how long since the internals were serviced?

Edited June 24, 2018 by 7 lakes
Spelling curection

[Patch]

Welcome.

 

The proportioning valve is calibrated and balanced for the stock piston sizes, if you change the piston size equally front and rear the proportioning valve will still function correctly, if you change them unequally it won't. The master cylinder bores are also sized for the caliper pistons, so larger pistons reduce the mechanical advantage of the masters. Small increases may not be that noticeable but larger ones will require more effort at the lever and negatively impact modulation and feel.

 

The proportioning valve and the caliper piston size aren't intended to prevent the front wheel from locking so much as they are to apply the correct proportion of front /rear braking without the skill level required to correctly modulate independent front and rear brakes, especially in a panic stop where over-braking the front and losing control or locking the rear and sliding out are pretty easy to do for most riders. Its the same system cars have used forever. Yamaha stated in the manual that the "exclusive benefit" (their words) to this system is that it requires "no skill" to operate, just like stepping on the brake pedal in a car. Personally I think the linked system has gotten a bad rap because of A) the amount of rubber hose in the stock system, B) the hydraulic anti-dives, C) slightly undersized calipers and D) hardly anyone maintains their hydraulics. I actually like the linked brakes but think that the combination of the above meant that the stock bike was under-braked for a two-up loaded touring bike. I think most folks here prefer to un-link the brakes.

 

Tim

 

Well put Tim!

 

Not sure why folks don't like the anti dives.

 

I change all hydraulic fluids every year even if the miles don't justify that I do.

Since changing out my fork oil to what the informed disagree with;) I haven't had to reload them in many years now but should of refreshed by now.

 

Patch

[7 lakes]

Thanks Tim that's awesome I'll replace all three calipers with blu-dots and see how that feels for awhile. Then I'll try de-linking and try that out.

 

You're gonna rebuild the masters, right? If they haven't been serviced recently and you drain the system, do a bunch of pumping and bleeding and flush everything out, you will probably be setting yourself up for some tail chasing trying to figure out why the new calipers aren't working right. And it will be because the rest of the system wasn't serviced. And of course the new calipers will be rebuilt before they go on? And hoses? The single biggest, best bang for the buck bolt on brake upgrade available is stainless hoses.

[7 lakes]

Well put Tim!

 

Not sure why folks don't like the anti dives.

 

I change all hydraulic fluids every year even if the miles don't justify that I do.

Since changing out my fork oil to what the informed disagree with;) I haven't had to reload them in many years now but should of refreshed by now.

 

Patch

 

I think the anti-dives, like the concept of a linked system, took the blame for the impact of so much rubber hose and the calipers being undersized. With ideal hydraulic sizing/pressure transmission/function, the anti-dives shouldnt have been noticeable. But add them to a marginally sized, over-hosed (there's a word ya don't use much) system, with even more hose, and uggh. Kinda like trying a new food after you're already full and blaming it for your heartburn.

 

If the stock system had run one rubber hose (of higher quality) to the fork brace, steel from there to the calipers and steel from the calipers to the anti-dives, and only the shortest hose possible to allow suspension travel in the rear, the stock system would have been much better. Still marginal, but better. I actually toyed with the idea of doing this on mine just to see how much improvement there was but probably won't. I have enough to do.

 

And good on ya for servicing your fluid, great way to prolong the life of the internals.

[bongobobny]

I just want to give you guys a little information and guidance. There are TWO separate valves in the linked brake system, the proportioning valve, and the metering valve!! The proportioning valve is the one near the rear master cylinder, and its whole purpose in life is to cause a slight delay in hydraulic pressure to the front brake. This delay is determined by the spring rate of the spring inside the valve. Until the spring rate is overcome the front brake is shut off. A few milliseconds later the spring moves and the valve opens to the front brake. There is pretty much NO METERING in that valve!!! Now on the frame near the battery is the actual metering valve! It is a simple orifice that controls or meters the flow of hydraulic pressure and volume to the front brake! Now if you open up the size of that hole, two things happen. You allow more volume to pass per time unit, BUT you lose pressure!! Think garden hose nozzle...

[Patch]

Hmm, 7lakes I agree we can improve most systems for a fraction of what they originally cost. Example braided lines pads that suit your style....

 

BUT here's is our divide: My 1st hand experience TOURING on this touring bike; the braking system as is, in popper working order with solid suspension - kept my rubber in contact, confidence high and shiny side up!

And, on 1 occasion of which there have been many (I do enjoy pushing hard) face to the back of a combine when instinctively I was looking for the better outcome of a slide knowing that would be favorable to kissing his big red ass. Instead and to my surprise she held and bled off speed and inertia like a Queen!

I'm and old cowboy so I keep my tramp bags packed and 1 up, 2 up stability and inertia could have rolled the dice snake eyes true, but then again I wouldn't have been pushing as hard either.

 

Except for my springs and oils she stock mechanically but maintained not like a mini van rather like a touring sport's machine/Queen, with no "not street legal" stickers!

 

My anti dives are electrically actuated no indirect links..

 

Patch

[garyS-NJ]

The diameter of the master cylinder bore needs to increase proportionately to the caliper bore in order to maintain the same hydraulic advantage, in other words if the caliper bore is increased by 20% the master bore size needs to be increased by 20% or you lose braking power. As far as the best master for your calipers I'll defer you to those here that have made the swap, I have the stock calipers on mine and plan to leave them.

 

I'm curious about why you have to stand on your rear brake, what is your rear setup now, is there just one caliper on the rear master? Stock caliper? Did you remove the proportioning valve? What kind of hose to the rear? How old are the pads and how long since the internals were serviced?

I'm delinked so with stock rear master, the line that was going to the front is now plugged and I ditched the proportioning valve. After that the rear was very touchy or with a "wooden" feel. Just took off the rear caliper and looks like one of the pucks is frozen in so I swapped with a spare and going for brake fluid.. (Haha, mystery solved when you actually look at something).

 

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[dna9656]

What's a "Blue Dot" caliper?

I'm not brake system modifier UNLESS I use the master cylinder that was used with the different calipers.

I'm too chicken. I don't ride hard or push the limits of the machine; I just ride. I have a passenger (2up) from time to time.

I like the system as Yamaha designed it, I know that when your going to operate a vehicle off road the mod world is a much larger place than if you were going to remain on the road. Most engineers build something to suit most expected operating parameters for most people/loads. I imagine at least 60% of the members here ride that way. Making your own brake lines is a tricky thing, it's easy to kink the pipe with the right tools much less without them. I would like to put the stainless lines on my bike, they are expensive, but I hope to get mine this winter, not because I want/need the performance of stainless, it's because the rubber lines are 40 years old! They GOT TO GO and I don't know if anyone makes brake lines for our bike, I have heard of eBay sellers offering brake lines in X length, I'm not interested in generic brake lines or ones you have to turn at funny angles... I want t stainless we can get from one of the long term guys here.

I have a pair or R-1 calipers and the master cylinder that came with an R-1. I have a fork off a 1300 bike. I just bought this '88, I'm not sure if changing the calipers out to the R-1s is going to be any better, I mean the 88 has 4 pistons per caliper as do the R-1s, the brake pads seem to be about the same size so I'm not sure if I should go through all that with my riding style, we MAY get a trailer one day, but we figure if we NEED a trailer we should take the truck!

 

Any advice (as always) is appreciated!

 

IS THIS A BLUE DOT CALIPER? What if the blue dots are red, is it still considered a blue dot caliper?

 

Edited June 25, 2018 by dna9656

[Motor]

[videoarizona]

I too have my 89 stock and will keep it that way. I love the linked brakes and can easily use only the rear brake for slow speed control by simply gently using the rear brake. As was said, doing that, activates only the rear brake.... or more rear than front. Whichever!

 

I ended up putting a blue dot on my rear only because my caliper was not functioning anymore properly. So rather than rebuild, I bought a used newer caliper and installed it. Excellent!

 

[garyS-NJ]

I'm delinked so with stock rear master, the line that was going to the front is now plugged and I ditched the proportioning valve. After that the rear was very touchy or with a "wooden" feel. Just took off the rear caliper and looks like one of the pucks is frozen in so I swapped with a spare and going for brake fluid.. (Haha, mystery solved when you actually look at something).

 

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Well with the replacement caliper seemingly in working order (it was sitting so I didn't want to bench check action on both pucs for fear of the grunge making it hard to retract them for a say onto the disc.. (Yes, lazy, in a rush)), I slapped it on, bled, and test rode and it wasn't much better! Brake was initially dragging but after a test ride down hills and stamping on the brakes to get short skids, that loosened up but it still requires a lot of pressure to get a skid. I've only seen master cylinders fail by leaking or getting squishy so I'm incli ed to think one or both pics aren't actuating well but how could that be without them dragging. Oh and the pads looked ok. I checked my spare r6 front calipers and the look a litesmaller and bolt pattern wider. A,home know if the mk2 rear brake mount will hold an r6 caliper and is that an upgrade for more stopping power? I think brakes should lock when asked.

 

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[garyS-NJ]

I too have my 89 stock and will keep it that way. I love the linked brakes and can easily use only the rear brake for slow speed control by simply gently using the rear brake. As was said, doing that, activates only the rear brake.... or more rear than front. Whichever!

 

I ended up putting a blue dot on my rear only because my caliper was not functioning anymore properly. So rather than rebuild, I bought a used newer caliper and installed it. Excellent!

 

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=113274

So that's a blue for rear caliper with your stock mk2 caliper mount? Does it make more stopping power than stock caliper?

 

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[videoarizona]

So that's a blue for rear caliper with your stock mk2 caliper mount? Does it make more stopping power than stock caliper?

 

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Bolted right in. BTW, as long as the distance from the center of the mounting holes is 100mm, that type of caliper will work on both the 1st gens Mk2, and 2nd gens. I'm not sure about the 1st gen mnk 1's....83 and 84's. Yamaha uses a lot of parts that interchange between models. Brake calipers is one of them.

 

Yes...it works very well. Only problems are - the original brake line has a slight twist in it. And it needs to be bled BEFORE you mount it as the bleeder isn't in the up position for bleeding. It was easy doing it that way. Takes only a few minutes to bolt her back on to test the brakes. I used a block of wood between the pads to test my pedal before mounting. There are numerous sources that will make custom stainless brake lines...I'll go that route for the rear at some point.

[garyS-NJ]

Bolted right in. BTW, as long as the distance from the center of the mounting holes is 100mm, that type of caliper will work on both the 1st gens Mk2, and 2nd gens. I'm not sure about the 1st gen mnk 1's....83 and 84's. Yamaha uses a lot of parts that interchange between models. Brake calipers is one of them.

 

Yes...it works very well. Only problems are - the original brake line has a slight twist in it. And it needs to be bled BEFORE you mount it as the bleeder isn't in the up position for bleeding. It was easy doing it that way. Takes only a few minutes to bolt her back on to test the brakes. I used a block of wood between the pads to test my pedal before mounting. There are numerous sources that will make custom stainless brake lines...I'll go that route for the rear at some point.

The r1 r6 calipers don't fit my '84 brake mount. I have an '86 mount somewhere here but ill do that next time I find the mount. For now I just popped off the caliper to verify both pucs were actuating. They were but took mega force to squeeze them back. I cleaned with energy cloth, rinsed, wire wheeled, buffed, and associated the pins and a smear of hi temp grease. New ebc hh pads and she's not dragging. Test ride tonight but I think maybe my master isn't putting full pressure somehow but to my recollection, that should make for a fading squishy pedal...

 

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[videoarizona]

The r1 r6 calipers don't fit my '84 brake mount. I have an '86 mount somewhere here but ill do that next time I find the mount. For now I just popped off the caliper to verify both pucs were actuating. They were but took mega force to squeeze them back. I cleaned with energy cloth, rinsed, wire wheeled, buffed, and associated the pins and a smear of hi temp grease. New ebc hh pads and she's not dragging. Test ride tonight but I think maybe my master isn't putting full pressure somehow but to my recollection, that should make for a fading squishy pedal...

 

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Try bleeding one more time.....if your test ride isn't to your satisfaction. She should stop pretty quickly without lock up using pedal only.

[7 lakes]

Every single negative condition mentioned in this thread could likely be solved with a simple caliper rebuild. The caliper piston seal is not just an oil seal, it's the highest functioning mechanical part in the caliper, and is literally the thing that makes disc brakes work. Nothing will work right if it needs service. If the piston was really hard to push in, its certainly not going to work correctly. And any used caliper needs to be rebuilt before it's put into service, unless it was just rebuilt.

 

I don't mean to , but it's just a fact. I see guys in the forums all the time going down rabbit holes with brakes when all they need to do is buy new some rubber and brake fluid. Servicing the internals isn't at all difficult, takes way less time than bolting on other stuff, which of course needs to be rebuilt too, and if it needs to be done there isn't any point in doing anything else.

[videoarizona]

 

Yep...I keep forgetting that we can still get parts for those calipers. Thanks for reminder!

[garyS-NJ]

Try bleeding one more time.....if your test ride isn't to your satisfaction. She should stop pretty quickly without lock up using pedal only.

Took her for a test ride and same scrappy rear brake AND it was dragging pretty bad. I kicked the caliper and the dragging got much better but still there a little. I know that could be excess brake fluid in the reservoir or that return hole partially plugged. I'm gonna clean that return hole and try it again but I think the caliper needs service... Wondering if the r1/r6 calipers are more reliable.. Another though just came to mind tho if the brake line is collapsing, or clogged, that would produce both symptoms..

 

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[7 lakes]

Took her for a test ride and same scrappy rear brake AND it was dragging pretty bad. I kicked the caliper and the dragging got much better but still there a little. I know that could be excess brake fluid in the reservoir or that return hole partially plugged. I'm gonna clean that return hole and try it again but I think the caliper needs service... Wondering if the r1/r6 calipers are more reliable.. Another though just came to mind tho if the brake line is collapsing, or clogged, that would produce both symptoms..

 

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I can't be excess fluid, it can't be the return hole, it can't be air. It's the caliper. The caliper needs servicing. Service the caliper. It's The Caliper.

[dna9656]

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=113269

 

So, they ARE R-1 calipers.

Thank-You!

[garyS-NJ]

I can't be excess fluid, it can't be the return hole, it can't be air. It's the caliper. The caliper needs servicing. Service the caliper. It's The Caliper.

Fluid expands when hot and I thought we had a venture rider solved his dragging brakes with a spurt out the bleeder. And I can't see the sightglass in reservoir. And certainly the return hole will keep them dragging. But neither will make it harder to stop. I'll work on a caliper.

 

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