Brake seals

[dna9656]

I ordered my brake seals 3 each of 1KT-25803-00-00 Caliper Seal Kit Made by Yamaha. The dust seal is too big, the other (thicker) seal fits fine; what's up?

 

 

So, I figured out that there are two cup sizes, M7 and M8. You can't get a M8 in a M7 hole and the M7 cup is too sloppy in the M8 hole; cool how that works huh? So one side of the caliper is M8 and the other is M7. So how does the one size M7 fit the M8 hole and vice versa; and BTW the last seal kit I opened is apparently for M8 hols because the dust seals won't fit. Now after exposure to brake fluid do the dust seals shrink? I doubt it....All my kits have the same part number and they are all labeled Yamaha. Thn to

Thanks to cimmer for the education! Thanks for the screw-over Yamaha.

Edited June 17, 2018 by dna9656

[cimmer]

It appears you have the calipers off of a MKII 86-93 Venture and they do use different sized caliper pistons in the left front caliper. Your easiest way to rebuild these caliper in my opinion is to buy this rebuild kit as they supply all the o-rings and seals for the MKII calipers.

https://brakecraftersusa.myshopify.com/collections/1989-yamaha-xvz13-d-series-venture-royale/products/1986-1993-yamaha-xvz1300-venture-front-brake-caliper-new-seal-kit

This kit comes with the o-rings that are used when you separate the caliper halves as you have done from the pictures. Yamaha does not supply those o-rings..

He also has a rebuild kit for the rear caliper and offers a 15% discount to new customers..

https://brakecraftersusa.myshopify.com/collections/1989-yamaha-xvz13-d-series-venture-royale/products/1986-1993-yamaha-venture-royal-brakecrafter-rear-brake-caliper-seal-kit

 

I hope this helps you..

 

Rick F.

[cimmer]

I just reread you post.. what you need to complete the kit with Yamaha parts is a Caliper Seal Kit 1NL-W0047-00-00

Hope that helps

 

Rick F

[dna9656]

I just reread you post.. what you need to complete the kit with Yamaha parts is a Caliper Seal Kit 1NL-W0047-00-00

Hope that helps

 

Rick F

 

Would you have a description of the part number? How many seals in it, maybe the sizes?

[dna9656]

Would you have a description of the part number? How many seals in it, maybe the sizes?

 

Anyone ever heard of www.mudbrothers.com? They got that kit above for $ FOURTEEN!!! Need it or not that sure is a SCREAMIN" price! The site is a bit FUBAR... the only way you can pay for anything is pay-pal or over the phone, even though the say they take CCs the CCs links are all dead.

Edited June 18, 2018 by dna9656

[dna9656]

Back in the day... my Mom drove a '64 Ford Galaxie 500 XL. Beautiful car. If a radiator hose blew or a fan belt wore out, they all got replaced. If the car needed a brake job, both axles would be done. Now who the hell rebuilds ONLY 1/2 the front calipers, or only ONE of the TWO front calipers? Who the hell buys seals for only ONE SIDE of a caliper with TWO sets of pistons? Who the hell DOESN'T buy the O rings that seal the split caliper?

Some jack ass at Yamaha, that's who.

Edited June 21, 2018 by dna9656

[7 lakes]

Back in the day... my Mom drove a '64 Ford Galaxie 500 XL. Beautiful car. If a radiator hose blew or a fan belt wore out, they all got replaced. If the car needed a brake job, both axles would be done. Now who the hell rebuilds ONLY 1/2 the front calipers, or only ONE of the TWO front calipers? Who the hell buys seals for only ONE SIDE of a caliper with TWO sets of pistons? Who the hell DOESN'T buy the O rings that seal the split caliper?

Some jack ass at Yamaha, that's who.

 

The factory isn't telling you that you can't do all the work you want. Their parts groupings usually aren't intended for a complete caliper (or other component) overhaul, especially for the home mechanic. Part groupings and the composition of "kits" has more to do with making sure that any sourcing changes, part updates and revisions track among a group of parts that need to match each other. Manufacturers organize parts and inventory for dealers and factory trained wrenches, not us. As a former wrench myself, I can tell ya for sure that the guys who did the work on your mom's (awesome!) car didn't order a kit for all the brake parts, belts or hoses, they spent probably 30 minutes making a list of parts and they had current complete parts books in front of them, without any NLA items and everything stocked in a warehouse a few hours away.

 

Looking for parts some 20 years after anyone expected us to be can be a pain, it takes some research sometimes. The advantage of ordering from someone like Brakecrafters (not affiliated, just a happy customer) is that they do the legwork for you and assemble complete kits. It can be less frustrating for sure.

[dna9656]

The factory isn't telling you that you can't do all the work you want. Their parts groupings usually aren't intended for a complete caliper (or other component) overhaul, especially for the home mechanic. Part groupings and the composition of "kits" has more to do with making sure that any sourcing changes, part updates and revisions track among a group of parts that need to match each other. Manufacturers organize parts and inventory for dealers and factory trained wrenches, not us. As a former wrench myself, I can tell ya for sure that the guys who did the work on your mom's (awesome!) car didn't order a kit for all the brake parts, belts or hoses, they spent probably 30 minutes making a list of parts and they had current complete parts books in front of them, without any NLA items and everything stocked in a warehouse a few hours away.

 

Looking for parts some 20 years after anyone expected us to be can be a pain, it takes some research sometimes. The advantage of ordering from someone like Brakecrafters (not affiliated, just a happy customer) is that they do the legwork for you and assemble complete kits. It can be less frustrating for sure.

 

OK check this out. On the fork page they have those index nubbers a dot and another number. Well those are both index numbers, the first (on the left is the index for one side of the fork then the dot and the next number is for the same part on the other side of the fork. OK; I haven't ever seen left and right side parts shown THAT way, usu. one side ends in an even number and the other side is an odd number or it's ####a or ####b. They didn't do that with the brake caliper. The lowest price I could find at the time I ordered was $23.00 per HALF caliper, so I have seals for one side and none for the other, fortunately I didn't order 4 kits, just 3.

that's why I'm frustrated.

[7 lakes]

OK check this out. On the fork page they have those index nubbers a dot and another number. Well those are both index numbers, the first (on the left is the index for one side of the fork then the dot and the next number is for the same part on the other side of the fork. OK; I haven't ever seen left and right side parts shown THAT way, usu. one side ends in an even number and the other side is an odd number or it's ####a or ####b. They didn't do that with the brake caliper. The lowest price I could find at the time I ordered was $23.00 per HALF caliper, so I have seals for one side and none for the other, fortunately I didn't order 4 kits, just 3.

that's why I'm frustrated.

 

I know, they just aren't organized in a way that seems to make sense. A good rule of thumb is if you see a "caliper kit" for 25 bucks, one for 37, one for 45, one for 42, etc., the 25 buck kit ain't likely to have as much as in it as the others. Unfortunately when looking for parts for old bikes online, sometimes that's the only way to determine how complete a kit you're getting. And it's always a good bet that if something has a factory part number it is not likely to be a "complete kit".

 

Another reason I like Brakecrafters is that you can trust you're getting truly new, fresh parts. With hydraulic parts I usually don't buy factory rubber parts unless they're currently shown as available through the dealer, meaning that they are reasonably fresh. I avoid the NOS (new old stock) rubber in the yellowed 20 year old factory plastic bag. These parts have a life span, the factory manual for our bikes states that the caliper seals are to be replaced every 2 years as scheduled maintenance. So buying old rubber = not good.

[dna9656]

I know, they just aren't organized in a way that seems to make sense. A good rule of thumb is if you see a "caliper kit" for 25 bucks, one for 37, one for 45, one for 42, etc., the 25 buck kit ain't likely to have as much as in it as the others. Unfortunately when looking for parts for old bikes online, sometimes that's the only way to determine how complete a kit you're getting. And it's always a good bet that if something has a factory part number it is not likely to be a "complete kit".

 

Another reason I like Brakecrafters is that you can trust you're getting truly new, fresh parts. With hydraulic parts I usually don't buy factory rubber parts unless they're currently shown as available through the dealer, meaning that they are reasonably fresh. I avoid the NOS (new old stock) rubber in the yellowed 20 year old factory plastic bag. These parts have a life span, the factory manual for our bikes states that the caliper seals are to be replaced every 2 years as scheduled maintenance. So buying old rubber = not good.

 

I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that very few bikes get the brake hydraulics overhauled every 2 years, how do I know you ask? The 88's brakes hadn't been used in 5 years, the last 84 I bought was being ridden and it's brakes were hardly functional, When overhauling the brakes on my 83, 84, 84, and now the 88 I sometimes think I'm the only guy (besides you and the other members) that are even aware of those recommends. It took a rag folded over 4 times and 10" channel locks to get the cups out of one of the 88's calipers! 125 PSI got the other caliper!

[7 lakes]

I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that very few bikes get the brake hydraulics overhauled every 2 years, how do I know you ask? The 88's brakes hadn't been used in 5 years, the last 84 I bought was being ridden and it's brakes were hardly functional, When overhauling the brakes on my 83, 84, 84, and now the 88 I sometimes think I'm the only guy (besides you and the other members) that are even aware of those recommends. It took a rag folded over 4 times and 10" channel locks to get the cups out of one of the 88's calipers! 125 PSI got the other caliper!

 

Oh yeah, nobody does that! I'm admittedly ridiculously picky and I don't rebuild calipers unless they need them. I do service the fluid every other season or so, though. Been laughed at for it, but I don't have brake problems. I bite my tongue all the time reading in forums about bleeding methods and about how "air gets in there" when trying to make a system that hasn't been opened in two decades act like new. Sometimes ya gotta get in there and the older these things get the more effort it takes.

 

Have ya got all your parts sorted out yet? Found everything you need?

[dna9656]

Oh yeah, nobody does that! I'm admittedly ridiculously picky and I don't rebuild calipers unless they need them. I do service the fluid every other season or so, though. Been laughed at for it, but I don't have brake problems. I bite my tongue all the time reading in forums about bleeding methods and about how "air gets in there" when trying to make a system that hasn't been opened in two decades act like new. Sometimes ya gotta get in there and the older these things get the more effort it takes.

 

Have ya got all your parts sorted out yet? Found everything you need?

 

The Eagle flies tomorrow, I'm ordering the complete front end caliper kit at brake masters and I don't know for sure when the $14.00 kit shown above will be here but it's on it's way. Also i hope to order the folk parts (the 4 that Yamaha manual says to replace) and I hope to order springs MAYBE too but may have to wait till next week when the Eagle visits me again. I hope to order some fork oil too, the stealer wants entirely too much for fork oil. I got a sort of recc. on another post I made about fork oil. I don't know what springs I'm ordering. I lots of info on the springs post I made, I'm just confuse a little, like are the progressive springs "PROGRESSIVE" or not. I have told that progressive springs aren't what the application would best benefit from. I don't ride fast, I just like the comfort, I like to ride with my wife, we have a trailer hitch but no trailer yet. This isn't the bike she would feel most safe on, she like the fake 3 wheeler we have that hasn't run except the day we test drove it. I wouldn't start the next morning. I started to move the ignitec from the 83.5 I have to it and got bogged down with life and that was 2 years ago.

[7 lakes]

The Eagle flies tomorrow, I'm ordering the complete front end caliper kit at brake masters and I don't know for sure when the $14.00 kit shown above will be here but it's on it's way. Also i hope to order the folk parts (the 4 that Yamaha manual says to replace) and I hope to order springs MAYBE too but may have to wait till next week when the Eagle visits me again. I hope to order some fork oil too, the stealer wants entirely too much for fork oil. I got a sort of recc. on another post I made about fork oil. I don't know what springs I'm ordering. I lots of info on the springs post I made, I'm just confuse a little, like are the progressive springs "PROGRESSIVE" or not. I have told that progressive springs aren't what the application would best benefit from. I don't ride fast, I just like the comfort, I like to ride with my wife, we have a trailer hitch but no trailer yet. This isn't the bike she would feel most safe on, she like the fake 3 wheeler we have that hasn't run except the day we test drove it. I wouldn't start the next morning. I started to move the ignitec from the 83.5 I have to it and got bogged down with life and that was 2 years ago.

 

Small "p" progressive simply means the springs are wound progressively, with the result being a spring which requires more pressure to compress per a certain distance the more you compress it; the last inch of compression takes much more force than the first inch. They're also called "rising rate" springs. This is a common spring type for many uses, but has found special fame when used in bike forks. This rising rate gives more or less a factory soft ride when cruising, but effectively much stiffer springs when braking hard, once you use up the "soft zone" the spring stiffens up in a hurry, preventing front end dive and helping you keep control of the bike. Capital "P" Progressive is a (brilliant) brand name for progressively wound fork springs.

 

I personally don't ride hard enough anymore to really need the "performance " aspect of progressives all the time, but think of it like ABS, it can make the difference in retaining control in a tight situation. I recommend Progressives for any bike that they're available for, in my opinion it's a safety upgrade that's more than worth the cost, even if you don't notice any difference when just cruising.

 

I don't get real sweaty about fork oil, it's not a demanding application at all for oil so the main consideration is the weight (viscosity) of the oil. Higher weights will provide more damping action, lower weights less. 5 weight, 10, 15, mix 10 and 15 for 12.5, etc., etc. Another area for lots of opinions and voodoo. If you're installing Progressives and mostly doing one up unloaded cruising, I'd start with 5 weight, if you're going to be doing two up touring, towing etc. I'd start with 10. Others on the board have much more experience with loaded touring on these bikes than I have, if you lay out just what you plan on doing with the bike someone will surely have a better founded opinion than mine.

Edited June 21, 2018 by 7 lakes
Spelling currection

[dna9656]

Small "p" progressive simply means the springs are wound progressively, with the result being a spring which requires more pressure to compress per a certain distance the more you compress it; the last inch of compression takes much more force than the first inch. They're also called "rising rate" springs. This is a common spring type for many uses, but has found special fame when used in bike forks. This rising rate gives more or less a factory soft ride when cruising, but effectively much stiffer springs when braking hard, once you use up the "soft zone" the spring stiffens up in a hurry, preventing front end dive and helping you keep control of the bike. Capital "P" Progressive is a (brilliant) brand name for progressively wound fork springs.

 

I personally don't ride hard enough anymore to really need the "performance " aspect of progressives all the time, but think of it like ABS, it can make the difference in retaining control in a tight situation. I recommend Progressives for any bike that they're available for, in my opinion it's a safety upgrade that's more than worth the cost, even if you don't notice any difference when just cruising.

 

I don't get real sweaty about fork oil, it's not a demanding application at all for oil so the main consideration is the weight (viscosity) of the oil. Higher weights will provide more damping action, lower weights less. 5 weight, 10, 15, mix 10 and 15 for 12.5, etc., etc. Another area for lots of opinions and voodoo. If you're installing Progressives and mostly doing one up unloaded cruising, I'd start with 5 weight, if you're going to be doing two up touring, towing etc. I'd start with 10. Others on the board have much more experience with loaded touring on these bikes than I have, if you lay out just what you plan on doing with the bike someone will surely have a better founded opinion than mine.

 

I helped my buddy install PROGRESSIVE rear springs in a '69 2 door Galaxie in 19 and 73. Most times here I have read progressive springs thinking of their design when I read the word not the brand. So, now (like McDonald's buys their meat from a company called "All Beef" so they can say their meat is "All Beef" we have a spring company called "Progressive"; how charming!) local Yamaha Stealer wants a ton of money for fork oil, way more than OPEC. Pricezilla has it for way less than Yamaha and way, way more than OPEC. So apparently price has nothing to do with the quality of most oil. I don't ride at high speed or into space. I jusy want a recommend of a reasonable priced, reasonable performance fork oil. So is there no name brand to avoid or buy?

[7 lakes]

I helped my buddy install PROGRESSIVE rear springs in a '69 2 door Galaxie in 19 and 73. Most times here I have read progressive springs thinking of their design when I read the word not the brand. So, now (like McDonald's buys their meat from a company called "All Beef" so they can say their meat is "All Beef" we have a spring company called "Progressive"; how charming!) local Yamaha Stealer wants a ton of money for fork oil, way more than OPEC. Pricezilla has it for way less than Yamaha and way, way more than OPEC. So apparently price has nothing to do with the quality of most oil. I don't ride at high speed or into space. I jusy want a recommend of a reasonable priced, reasonable performance fork oil. So is there no name brand to avoid or buy?

 

Opinions on oil are like ... well, opinions on oil. Everyone has one. I have my own opinions on engine oil, but bike forks are (in my opinion) pretty easy duty for modern oils. I use whatever is available at a reasonable price and haven't yet seen / felt any difference in brands. I've used Bel-Ray, Motul, Honda, Yamaha, I don't know any I would avoid.

 

Yeah, pretty smart branding on Progressive's part, kind of like being able to name your company "Airshocks".

[s.tyler58]

Opinions on oil are like ... well, opinions on oil. Everyone has one. I have my own opinions on engine oil, but bike forks are (in my opinion) pretty easy duty for modern oils. I use whatever is available at a reasonable price and haven't yet seen / felt any difference in brands. I've used Bel-Ray, Motul, Honda, Yamaha, I don't know any I would avoid.

 

Yeah, pretty smart branding on Progressive's part, kind of like being able to name your company "Airshocks".

I have a doctor friend who competes in BBQ competition in Kansas City every summer. They named their team, "Last Year's Champs".

 

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[dna9656]

In an effort to get this thread back on brakes.... I think I felt the ridge of the brake seals on the outboard side away from the seam of the 2 halves of the caliper; Thoughts?

[BlueSky]

My old Kawasaki manual specs SAE 10w20 motor oil for the forks. Probably can't find that viscosity any more. I used 5w30 in it but it was too stiff. And I don't know if the additives in modern oil will sneak by the fork seals. Recently when I replaced the seals, I used 10w Belray and it seems to be about right.

[dna9656]

Try as I might I can't get the cups by the seal. Yes I have RRG on the seals and cups. I have rebuilt the brakes in the 83s, 84s, and 85s and never had this problem.

[cimmer]

What is happening when you push the piston into their openings?

I would remove the seals and make sure the piston fit into their openings in the calipers with no seals in place and then see how the seals fit on the pistons.

When the seals are in their grove, are they smooth with the cylinder bore or do they protrude out of the grove a lot.

Maybe get us some pictures to check it out.

 

I had no issues when I rebuilt mine last year.

 

Rick F.

[7 lakes]

Try as I might I can't get the cups by the seal. Yes I have RRG on the seals and cups. I have rebuilt the brakes in the 83s, 84s, and 85s and never had this problem.

 

Doug, are you sure the groove the seal sits in is absolutely clean? The seals are a very tight fit because they're not just seals, they stretch when the brake is applied and draw the piston back when it's released, they are the most highly functioning component in the system and are tight. Any crud or corrosion in the seal groove can take up what little clearance they have.

[CaseyJ955]

I just did three R6 calipers and one OEM caliper and each bore had the exact same thing in your pics, and I knew the seals were right because I was reusing the ones that came out (successfully I might add). Work it into the bore with your pickset, much lile the picksets I linked a few weeks ago. It does take some fidgeting but once in the groove it should look just like it did before you took them out, all nice and smooth, as much as it defies explanation his is my e perience. You will know when its in right, It feels counterintuitive but it will go in and seat just fine. I know its odd but it will go, make sure the grooveside is against the piston. I prelubed it with a little DOT and massaged them all in, I had the same feeling you do but tbey are in and working as tbey should with no leaks. As odd as it looks now it will go into the groove and find its home with some wiggle and profanity.

[7 lakes]

Be real careful if you use a pick not to damage the seal. I've used feeler gauges to shoehorn stubborn seals, kind of like using a tire bar to mount a tire, put the feeler gauge between the seal and the caliper, apply pressure on the caliper while circling it with the feeler gauge and work the seal around the piston. Same motion as cleaning fork seals. Just don't damage the seal. If you decide to try this , take the sharp corners off the edges off the gauge with 400 grit paper.

[dna9656]

Be real careful if you use a pick not to damage the seal. I've used feeler gauges to shoehorn stubborn seals, kind of like using a tire bar to mount a tire, put the feeler gauge between the seal and the caliper, apply pressure on the caliper while circling it with the feeler gauge and work the seal around the piston. Same motion as cleaning fork seals. Just don't damage the seal. If you decide to try this , take the sharp corners off the edges off the gauge with 400 grit paper.

 

I don't think a gauge is gonna slip down in there. You're a brave man!

[dna9656]

I just did three R6 calipers and one OEM caliper and each bore had the exact same thing in your pics, and I knew the seals were right because I was reusing the ones that came out (successfully I might add). Work it into the bore with your pick-set, much like the pick sets I linked a few weeks ago. It does take some fidgeting but once in the groove it should look just like it did before you took them out, all nice and smooth, as much as it defies explanation his is my experience. You will know when its in right, It feels counter intuitive but it will go in and seat just fine. I know its odd but it will go, make sure the groove side is against the piston. I pre-lubed it with a little DOT and massaged them all in, I had the same feeling you do but they are in and working as they should with no leaks. As odd as it looks now it will go into the groove and find its home with some wiggle and profanity.

 

See my update!