Dead on the side of the road!!!

[RockinRobin]

Who knew a lousy NY pothole would lead to this. I'm very grateful for all the help. To bad it's still not running.

That makes two of us.

 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Patch]

As far as hooking up 3 AA batteries in series to apply 5 volts logic level, the problem with that is not knowing what the polarity would be, and I would be a little leery of this as the resistance in the switch is developing a voltage level in a current controlled loop and applying a separate voltage might blow its mind...

 

Not sure I follow? Hmm

If that is so then what can be expected as a result of 12V

 

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

[bongobobny]

Fair enough question, Steven G. From what I am interpreting from the very limited information in the Service Manual and not having a schematic of the ignitor unit the Black/White pin is some kind of monitoring point for a constant current generator that controls the ignition circuit. It uses the external resistance seen that is built into the tip-over switch. Now if I am correct and this a current generator then I will be a constant value so therefore the IR drop seen at the Black/White wire should be a specific value of E (E=IR). When the tip-over switch exceeds 50 degrees of a tip, the internal resistor is shorted out and the voltage drop with a constant current will go to near zero voltage shutting off the ignition. Now with Steamer's problem, if I am right in my assumptions, the IR drop across the circuit will be much higher so the circuit is sensing something is wrong with itself and is also shutting down! We know that with an open circuit the bike will NOT start as I tried it on mine and it would not start but as soon as I reconnected my switch it started and ran fine! So, with an open circuit or infinity ohms, the IR drop would bring that voltage on the Black/White wire to rail voltage or 12 volts, shutting down the ignitor. So, what I am assuming (I know, ass-u-me) is with the higher value of resistance in Steamer's switch the IR drop is almost triple the amount which is what is killing his ignitor. As stated above, my theory is when he first starts his battery voltage is dragged down just enough from the starter motor to have that IR drop just below the threshold but as soon as the regulator brings the battery voltage up (which is actually a higher voltage than the battery just sitting there) it comes up just enough to exceed the threshold and shut the circuit off. Not having a schematic of the internals of the ignitor makes it hard to figure out what and why things are happening and to be perfectly honest I am just making a SWAG as to what is wrong given the limited information I have...

[Patch]

Bongo thank you for making the time to explain your theory.

 

There is a reason as to why I was looking for 4.7V as a starting point. I'll leave it at that.

 

I don't know and likely none of us know for certain that she only fired with the switch hooked up or while bypassed?

 

Likely a switch can be designed to work with/at a specific frequency which is what I think you are saying the generating loop would provide.

 

Yet it also would need to have a tolerance to deal with both higher and lower voltage. I can bobby pin any of the bikes I have here at the moment obviously modern engineering has gotten ahead of me with this.

 

While we are being frank, I am not a believer in operating these machines while bypassed; if not for ones self, a run away machine is a risk to others easily avoided. (my opinion)

 

Steamer if the switch is the only problem, I suggest you open it, clean it and get back to riding. Keep the replacement in the trunk.

 

Patch

[steamer]

I can't believe I almost understand what you guys are taking about. With that being said, I still have the problem of getting the switch out from where it is. I really do not want to pull the radiator. I think I will wait until the resistor that Bongo is sending to get here and try the bypass just to see if it will start and run. I have a used switch on its way, if it runs on the bypass then I will look into removing the radiator to replace the switch.

[bongobobny]

Well, look at it this way, Steamer. Maybe it is time to flush the cooling system...

[djh3]

I think the "switch" is a sealed unit. So no cleaning. Just my guess. Secondly, if its a voltage drop below a threshold, what if you had a battery charger or jumpers on it from a good battery. Wouldn't that eliminate the voltage drop?

[steamer]

Bongo and Steve, I was going through old posts and came across one by LilBeaver, 3-30-12 pg 25, second gen tech section, " Engine dies when shifting, cranks for a long time before starting". He also suspected the tip switch and tested it same as us and came up with 61 ohms. He never did remove the switch but did change the ignitor and ignition switch, this seems to have fixed the problem. Similar problem but his was intermittent. So now we have 2 tip switches that read 61 and 2 that read 21???? Both 61 reading on bikes with starting problems!

[steamer]

I think the "switch" is a sealed unit. So no cleaning. Just my guess. Secondly, if its a voltage drop below a threshold, what if you had a battery charger or jumpers on it from a good battery. Wouldn't that eliminate the voltage drop?

 

Look a a bunch for sale on ebay and other sites, when you remove the rubber housing their is a plate that have 4 screws in it, so it looks like it can be opened.

[Woody]

when you get the switch you have coming do have to put it where the old one is or can you relocate it so you don't have to pull the radiator?

[steamer]

when you get the switch you have coming do have to put it where the old one is or can you relocate it so you don't have to pull the radiator?

QUOTE

 

I had the same thought, just not sure where to mount it.

[Patch]

Because it's a trike you may have options. But likely that would require extending the connecting harness.

[steamer]

I can tell you what it's not. It's not the tip over switch. Got the new one in today and still will not start. Back to the drawing board! by the way this one also tested at 61 ohms.

[Marcarl]

This reminds of the time we went for a ride from Port Huron with Squidley. Calipern had an 84 that wouldn't start, no matter what we did, it would turn over but not start, until somebody got on it and through habit kicked up the kickstand and it fired just fine. I know you don't have a kickstand but I would check the connections in the circuit as well as the kill switch.

[Patch]

Sorry busy morning.

 

Hmm, that's me refreshing!

 

Strange that it too is reading 61ohms?

 

Can you hear or feel the pendulum move on this new to us switch? The reading has to change based on movement

 

Carl is right "of course" if the connection of the side stand is bad, and is something we skipped over because....

[Flyinfool]

Back to the beginning.

When it is cranking but not starting, is there power on the red/black wire at the ignition coils? At one point you did not have power and then you did.

Is there power on the red/white wire at the 6 pin connector on the TCI? If you can get to it?

[Patch]

Something isn't adding up Flyinfool, 3 bikes tested 21ohms only the problem bike test's 61. Nope I think the tip switch needs to be still ruled in or out.

[Marcarl]

It now brings up the question if Bob tested the unit he sent and found it to be within specs, or if maybe Steamers gauge works differently.

[Patch]

It now brings up the question if Bob tested the unit he sent and found it to be within specs, or if maybe Steamers gauge works differently.

 

 

OR a shipping thingy? It to could be switched off? So test and then we move on

[bongobobny]

Steamer should have gotten a 33K resistor in the mail today to do two things, first check the calibration of his meter, and second to jumper across the disconnected connector to the bike's wiring harness and see if the bike starts.

 

Gee, do you think someone had a bad switch and being a scumball sold it on Fleabay???

 

PS it is 61,000 ohms (61K) and 21,000 ohms (21K) as read on the 200,000 ohms max scale of an ohmmeter. Let's get that straight, we do not want someone thinking it is only 21 and 61 ohms...

[Patch]

Likely Bongo is walking Steamer through it directly, might be easier for..

[steamer]

Had to leave to take care of family stuff. When I got back I checked to see if I had power to the coil and I did, so I hit the start button and she fired up and continued to run. I shut her down and tried again, Yep, she ran. I put the tank back on and hooked up the gas and ran her for several minutes, no problem. shut her down and started several times. Sooo WTF????

[Marcarl]

Had to leave to take care of family stuff. When I got back I checked to see if I had power to the coil and I did, so I hit the start button and she fired up and continued to run. I shut her down and tried again, Yep, she ran. I put the tank back on and hooked up the gas and ran her for several minutes, no problem. shut her down and started several times. Sooo WTF????

 

So which way were you holding your tongue?

[Patch]

You were lonely and needed company?

[Marcarl]

You were lonely and needed company?

 

Who? Me?