bongobobny Posted June 20, 2018 #101 Posted June 20, 2018 Well, I found a 33K ohm 5% resistor and read it with my ohmmeter and it read 32.4K ohms so I am going to assume mine is close enough. So, Steamer, we need to test your ohmmeter somehow and see how close yours is. With 60K ohms maybe that is causing the voltage drop to be something that is out of tolerance for the kill circuit just enough to make it intermittent acting. Still concerned with only 10 volts on your coils. Have you rechecked it with your freshly charged battery?? Did you ever check that 22 pin connector "E" and measure the voltage there? According to the schematic, that is where the coil voltage departs from the main harness and heads for the coils... Per my suggestion, try to find a 22K ohm resistor and jumper it across your disconnected plug for the tip-over so that the ignitor sees that much resistance and not 60K ohms. If you want, I can send you the 33K ohm resistor I found in the mail to try...
steamer Posted June 20, 2018 Author #102 Posted June 20, 2018 Not going to get to it righr now, Life is getting in the way. Will get back to it as soon as I can.
Patch Posted June 20, 2018 #103 Posted June 20, 2018 Why not order a tip over switch? While you have the time to wait.
bongobobny Posted June 21, 2018 #104 Posted June 21, 2018 Why not order a tip over switch? While you have the time to wait.Speaking for Steamer, probably because you pretty much have to disassemble half of the cooling system to get to the switch. I have a fellow venturerider person with a 2nd gen coming over tomorrow afternoon, so maybe I can talk him into pulling his tank back so I can read the resistance of his switch. If his comes out to around 22K ohms too, I will buy Steamer a 22K resistor and drop it in the mail for him to jumper his switch. You really don't need a tip-over switch on a trike...
Flyinfool Posted June 21, 2018 #105 Posted June 21, 2018 Speaking for Steamer, probably because you pretty much have to disassemble half of the cooling system to get to the switch. I have a fellow venturerider person with a 2nd gen coming over tomorrow afternoon, so maybe I can talk him into pulling his tank back so I can read the resistance of his switch. If his comes out to around 22K ohms too, I will buy Steamer a 22K resistor and drop it in the mail for him to jumper his switch. You really don't need a tip-over switch on a trike... You are less likely to need a tip over switch on a trike, but we also have several members that have gotten their trikes shinny side down. If you manage to flip it you will want it to shut down.
bongobobny Posted June 21, 2018 #106 Posted June 21, 2018 Unlike a 2 wheeler that lays on its side when it falls over, with a trike it will end up upside down, and two things happen. First, it gets no gas because the bottom of the tank becomes the top. The second thing is all the engine oil pours into the upper area and that will foul out the plugs... Yes Jeff, you are technically right...
steamer Posted June 21, 2018 Author #107 Posted June 21, 2018 Bongo, I need you to put in writing how to test the wiring we talked about on the phone, I believe it was at the e connetor. Now on to the fun stuff. This morning I did not try to start it, I retested the tip switch with two different testers. I still get 61 ohms. I tried tapping the switch, no change. I now have 11.3v at the coil, fully charged batt.
bongobobny Posted June 21, 2018 #108 Posted June 21, 2018 OK, 11.3 volts should be good enough! As far as that 22 pin "E" connector which should be under the tank along with a 20 pin connector, as long as you have voltage at the coils then everything should be pretty much OK. What you should have been looking for on the E connector would be the pin with the Red/Black wire and there should be 12 volts there on both ends when the connector is connected. I am assuming you see the number 61 on the X 200K (200,000) scale. That means you are seeing 61,000 ohms or 61K ohms. K stands for Kilo, or 1000. If you switch your ohmmeter to a lower scale such as X 20K is should read open as that scale can only read 20,000ohms maximum. As soon as Wayne and Carl get here I will talk Wayne into letting me read his tip-over switch resistance, and if his is also 21K I will find a 22K resistor and mail it to you so you can try jumpering the connector with it. Perhaps 61K is too high and at first, it will allow the bike to start but as soon as the charging system of the bike kicks in the voltage drop across the resistor is too much and it kills the spark!
Patch Posted June 21, 2018 #109 Posted June 21, 2018 Not sure if you would like to try a bypass for the tip switch. 3 triple A 1.5v strung together may trick the Control into firing.
bongobobny Posted June 21, 2018 #110 Posted June 21, 2018 OK Steamer, on Wizard765's bike we read the same 21.4K Ohms, so here's my theory. The IR drop across your 60K resistor is a lot higher of a drop across a 22K resistor, so here's what I think. With a startup, your starter motor drags your voltage down just enough that the bike will start. within a few seconds, your regulator is going to increase your battery voltage so the drop across the resistor goes up just enough to exceed the threshold of voltage to keep the ignitor turned on... I'm going to put a resistor in the mail for you so that you can try it out across your unconnected tip-over switch connector. If that fixes it, then order a new switch...
steamer Posted June 22, 2018 Author #111 Posted June 22, 2018 OK Steamer, on Wizard765's bike we read the same 21.4K Ohms, so here's my theory. The IR drop across your 60K resistor is a lot higher of a drop across a 22K resistor, so here's what I think. With a startup, your starter motor drags your voltage down just enough that the bike will start. within a few seconds, your regulator is going to increase your battery voltage so the drop across the resistor goes up just enough to exceed the threshold of voltage to keep the ignitor turned on... I'm going to put a resistor in the mail for you so that you can try it out across your unconnected tip-over switch connector. If that fixes it, then order a new switch... Sounds like as good a plan as any. The tip over seems to be the only thing not in normal range. Looking at where the tip over is, I think I can get it out of there with a long pair of needle nose pliers, Just not sure how to put it back in there.
steamer Posted June 22, 2018 Author #112 Posted June 22, 2018 OK, 11.3 volts should be good enough! As far as that 22 pin "E" connector which should be under the tank along with a 20 pin connector, as long as you have voltage at the coils then everything should be pretty much OK. What you should have been looking for on the E connector would be the pin with the Red/Black wire and there should be 12 volts there on both ends when the connector is connected. I am assuming you see the number 61 on the X 200K (200,000) scale. That means you are seeing 61,000 ohms or 61K ohms. K stands for Kilo, or 1000. If you switch your ohmmeter to a lower scale such as X 20K is should read open as that scale can only read 20,000ohms maximum. As soon as Wayne and Carl get here I will talk Wayne into letting me read his tip-over switch resistance, and if his is also 21K I will find a 22K resistor and mail it to you so you can try jumpering the connector with it. Perhaps 61K is too high and at first, it will allow the bike to start but as soon as the charging system of the bike kicks in the voltage drop across the resistor is too much and it kills the spark! Yes on the 200k scale.
djh3 Posted June 22, 2018 #113 Posted June 22, 2018 So if it is triked, and you all have determined the tip switch is not required/needed. Why not if the resistor allows it to run, just clip wires and solder it in or make connectors that plug in and use it instead of the bad switch?
baylensman Posted June 22, 2018 #114 Posted June 22, 2018 Wow! what a convoluted trail this has been. Starting with a small sputter after a hard swerve to the tip over switch has been a long journey. What a great community guys doing what the can from where they are, to help a brother out!! If we all get our collectives heads wiring on something its amazing what we come up with. So I've got this idea for a warp drive engine..........
bongobobny Posted June 22, 2018 #115 Posted June 22, 2018 Wow! what a convoluted trail this has been. Starting with a small sputter after a hard swerve to the tip over switch has been a long journey. What a great community guys doing what the can from where they are, to help a brother out!! If we all get our collectives heads wiring on something its amazing what we come up with. So I've got this idea for a warp drive engine..........Yup, and if it wasn't for @Outcast clueing us in on how the 2nd Gen Ignitor kill circuit actually worked we wouldn't have known there was a series resistance as the factory schematic just shows a simple switch to ground, and the service manual doesn't give any testing procedures for that switch. Hidden in the service manual text is sort of a clue mentioning the current generating loop but it does not mention the tip-over switch as part of it...
Patch Posted June 22, 2018 #116 Posted June 22, 2018 And if we knew the voltage output after the switch we could series the triple A to come close to, then we'd be able with ease to rule the tip switch in or out. Simply put we offer the controller the required voltage by bypassing the 12 volt feed! Not sure my English is saying what I'm actually think? But you get the drift.. Patch And also all might not be lost with this switch, if Steamer can remove it the he can or likely reset it.
steamer Posted June 22, 2018 Author #117 Posted June 22, 2018 Yup, and if it wasn't for @Outcast clueing us in on how the 2nd Gen Ignitor kill circuit actually worked we wouldn't have known there was a series resistance as the factory schematic just shows a simple switch to ground, and the service manual doesn't give any testing procedures for that switch. Hidden in the service manual text is sort of a clue mentioning the current generating loop but it does not mention the tip-over switch as part of it... actually their is a test procedure for the tip switch in the manual on pg. 8-80. it says " remove the emergency stop switch. connect the pocket (ohm X1) to the emergency stop switch connector as shown. When turning the ESS approx. 50 deg. the resistance reading is 0 ohms" Doesn't say what it should read in the upright position. What the hell good is that.
steamer Posted June 22, 2018 Author #118 Posted June 22, 2018 I have a used switch on its way, cost all of 5 bucks, but will not be here till the end of next week. When I get it I'll test it and if good I will hook it up and try to start the bike. If all goes well I'm going to have to find a way to mount it.
Patch Posted June 22, 2018 #119 Posted June 22, 2018 Which is why we mentioned it has to be removed and checked, for future folks looking into it.
steamer Posted June 22, 2018 Author #120 Posted June 22, 2018 Which is why we mentioned it has to be removed and checked, for future folks looking into it. I agree it does need to be pulled. The only way that I can see to get access, short of removing the motor, Is to remove the radiator. Not something I'm looking forward to doing.
Patch Posted June 22, 2018 #121 Posted June 22, 2018 Steamer if I could have placed that pothole in your path knowing it would form this team; I'd gladly have done so! At your expense of course;) There are some really good foundation guys here at VR! When flyinfool corrected course for me over the solenoid, all I can say, what a bruise to my forehead! I just enjoy troubleshooting with a team.. Well here's hoping the problem is soon to be past tense. Patch
steamer Posted June 22, 2018 Author #122 Posted June 22, 2018 Who knew a lousy NY pothole would lead to this. I'm very grateful for all the help. To bad it's still not running.
cecdoo Posted June 22, 2018 #123 Posted June 22, 2018 Been following this from the beginning Bob, unfortunately all I can offer is moral support. These guys forgot more about Ventures then I will ever know. Hoping you can get it figured out and back on the road soon. Will just really be curious to see what happened. Craig
steamer Posted June 22, 2018 Author #124 Posted June 22, 2018 Been following this from the beginning Bob, unfortunately all I can offer is moral support. These guys forgot more about Ventures then I will ever know. Hoping you can get it figured out and back on the road soon. Will just really be curious to see what happened. Craig Thanks Craig, I can't wait to see how this turns out too.
bongobobny Posted June 23, 2018 #125 Posted June 23, 2018 I sent you a 33K ohm resistor in the mail today, Bob! It's not the desired 22K ohm we are looking for but it should be a lot closer than 60K ohms! Besides, we can see if your ohmmeter is close or not! When you get it in the mail (probably Monday, tomorrow if you are extremely lucky) just stick one leg into one pin of the connector and the other leg in the other pin and see if it starts... As far as hooking up 3 AA batteries in series to apply 5 volts logic level, the problem with that is not knowing what the polarity would be, and I would be a little leery of this as the resistance in the switch is developing a voltage level in a current controlled loop and applying a separate voltage might blow its mind...
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